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The dossier of TW "Bolek" - Poland's IPN assisted by police enters the home of the late general Kiszczak


jon357 74 | 22,469
18 Feb 2016 #31
So, Greggy (undercover!) the level of formal education that someone received has something to do with the content of their character and their life's achievements (Nobel prize winner, KBE, President of Poland) in your world...
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
18 Feb 2016 #32
support a full and honest investigation

But I do. Let them X-ray all the political leaders of the past 26 years, all the top media types, bishops and all the Polish millionaires. Although insiginificant in the overall scheme of thinngs, even all the expats including PF-ers to see which of them are actually secret foreign-interest lobbyists
Harry
18 Feb 2016 #33
may historical truth prevail.

You sure you want that?

the SB plant at the shipyard.

It's rather unlikely that among the tens of thousands of employees there was only on SB plant. I mean, think back to your industry in those days, there were only a dozen or so people in that professional circle but one of them is well known to have been 'secretly' in the pay of the Party. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the number of Lenin Shipyard workers who secretly co-operated with the Party to have been in the hundreds, or even the four-figure range.

How can one humiliate and discredit a guy that barely can read and write ?

A number of such persons manage to do that to themselves here every week.
gregy741 5 | 1,232
18 Feb 2016 #34
o, Greggy (undercover!) the level of formal education that someone received has something to do with the content of their character and their life's achievements (Nobel prize winner, KBE, President of Poland) in your world...

first its not me,this undercover guy,second-his "life achievement"are result of his lies,deceipt ect. many people knew he was agent and crook..now its time to expose him and strip him from awards ect.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Feb 2016 #35
Let them X-ray all the political leaders of the past 26 years, all the top media types, bishops and all the Polish millionaires.

A very good idea. Let's appoint foreign experts to ensure that there is no agenda - we could use someone seconded from the agency that deals with the Stasi files to lead the commission, and perhaps a Czech expert on the lustration process too.

Latest news :

natemat.pl/171793,walesa-to-tylko-maly-bolek-kolejne-tajemnice-szafy-kiszczaka-odnalazly-sie-akta-rajmunda-kaczynskiego

The discovery of the documents, attracts public attention mainly because of the files relating to "Bolek". But there was a different story. The documents collected by the IPN include information about Rajmund Kaczyński, the father of the Kaczynski brothers.

The story simply will not go away.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
18 Feb 2016 #36
may historical truth prevail

The only unfortunate thing is that it is coming so late. If Wałęsa hadn't been so uptight about the Bolek thing and the files were finally opened, analysed and everyone knew who was who, there would have been a bit of rumpus for a year or two and then it would have settled down. Because of the "Nocna zmiana" we have had a quarter-century of this nonsense, deep polarisation of society and there's no end in sight. By postponing the inevitable we are passing bipolar Poland down to the next generation.

By exposing the "układ", millions of people will finally get to know who really won out and cashed in on the roundtable and why so many average Poles have benefited so little from the transformation.
jon357 74 | 22,469
18 Feb 2016 #37
first its not me,this undercover guy

You aren't the only crank here with that name. To quote the wonderful Carly Simon " you're so vain, you probably think this song is about you".

many people knew he was agent and crook

More that others peopl sought to smear him for their own personal and political gain

A number of such persons manage to do that to themselves here every week

Bingo.
gregy741 5 | 1,232
18 Feb 2016 #38
did you hear than cnut Michnik?he said ,Kiszczak was not honorable man after all.lol...this PO salon is a proper sh.thole.always knew that,but they climbed to another level.
G (undercover)
18 Feb 2016 #39
A number of such persons manage to do that to themselves here every week.

Yeah, they are commonly known as "expats".
Ktos 16 | 436
18 Feb 2016 #40
Let's appoint foreign experts to ensure that there is no agenda - we could use someone seconded from the agency that deals with the Stasi files to lead the commission, and perhaps a Czech expert on the lustration process too.

How about examining foreign businessmen for committing fraud in Poland in the past 26 years? Surely, I would rather want Polish to do the examining not foreigners.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Feb 2016 #41
Why would you look at foreign businessmen when the former son-in-law of Lech Kaczyński has just been held for another 3 months on fraud charges before his trial?

As for foreign experts, we need to make sure that the process is fair and without political bias, so that those that plundered Poland are punished irrespective of political affiliation.
gregy741 5 | 1,232
18 Feb 2016 #42
Why would you look at foreign businessmen when the former son-in-law of Lech Kaczyński has just been held for another 3 months on fraud charges before his trial?

yes..hes former SLD member..from same circles as Walesas communists friends.i also hope he will be judged swiftly,not like Walesas collaborations truth had to wait 30 years to surface
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Feb 2016 #43
He's the former son-in-law of Lech Kaczyński, which shows you the kind of company that he kept.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
18 Feb 2016 #44
The story simply will not go away

Not when the likes of Lis keep dredging up what is essentially an un-story. Rajmund was insignifciant, he was in the AK like hundreds of thousands of others, never achieved much in his career, was a poor father and was rumoured to have had some affairs. There hasn't even been any proof he was in the PZPR. But inveterate PiS-bashers and PO hate-industry operatives will stop at nothing to discredit and harass the Kaczyński brothers, even through their dead father. Michnik was raised in a family of pro-Soviet traitors with blood on their hands, and no-one has ever heard a peep out of you on that. How come?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Feb 2016 #45
Rajmund was insignifciant

So insignificant that his children were movie stars in the PRL, so insignificant that both of them were able to enter the legal profession and so insignificant that one of them even managed to enter the application process to become a public prosecutor? Pull the other one.

never achieved much in his career, was a poor father and was rumoured to have had some affairs.

Never achieved much? He worked on the American Embassy for crying out loud, and he worked lecturing PZPR members at one point. He achieved a lot, and how he achieved it - we can only guess.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
18 Feb 2016 #46
want Polish to do the examining

Indeed. Even the most astute foreign expert will lack the feel for the Polish situation wtih all its Poland-specific nuances and ramifications. Surely there must be some competent and impartial Polish authortiy figures who are above siding with lefitsts or rightists in the great Polsih divide.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Feb 2016 #47
Not really. The right wing in Polish politics regards anyone that does anything against them as siding with the political opposition.

I'm all for opening up every single file that the IPN has and allowing anyone to examine them. Why doesn't the government do this?
jon357 74 | 22,469
18 Feb 2016 #48
So insignificant that his children were movie stars in the PRL, so insignificant that both of them were able to enter the legal profession and so insignificant that one of them even managed to enter the application process to become a public prosecutor?

Exactly. Anyone intelligent can see exactly how it was.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
18 Feb 2016 #49
how it was

So how was it? Proof is needed not "must've", "probably", "could've" speculation and insinuation.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Feb 2016 #50
You only need to figure out that those that obtained large apartments in Zoliborz during the huge housing crisis post-war must have had ...connections.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
18 Feb 2016 #51
we can only guess

Precisely. It is all guesswork. Bring out some solid facts and irrefutable evidence. I'm all for it. But to guess, speculate and insinutate ENDLESSLY (your favourite buzz-word!) for the sole purpose of defaming Poland's most prominent statesman, that's for the birds!

were able to enter the legal profession

Too bad you know about this only from second-hand reports. In the Poland of the Kaczyński brothers' student days, any qualified person who passed their exams could enter the legal profession. Not the military or police leadership, those were reserved for PZPR loyalists, but medicine, law, engienering, etc. were open to all qualified candidates.
Ktos 16 | 436
18 Feb 2016 #52
As for foreign experts, we need to make sure that the process is fair and without political bias.

Be careful or you will come under surveillance and your business as well, it is about time, we need Polish experts to make sure foreign corruption and "do whatever" attitude in Poland ends. It serves foreigners well to abuse gaps in Polish system while their business flourishes but when Kaczynski gets into foreign backside then all of a sudden alleged law and order needs to be called in... from foreign lands, ha ha so that foreign crime is covered up? No way, only Polish experts, enough of foreign and western interference and use of our system, not so easy anymore is it?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Feb 2016 #53
In the Poland of the Kaczyński brothers' student days, any qualified person who passed their exams could enter the legal profession, but medicine, law, engienering, etc. were open to all qualified candidates.

Hahahaha. Polonius, you make me laugh. Even my own mother-in-law was denied access to her planned studies in Warsaw in the 70's because she wasn't from the 'right' background politically. I would love to say that it was law or medicine that she was denied entry to - but no, it was simply horticulture.

Try as you might, you'll never convince anyone here that law studies were open to any student. (ab)using the law was important for the PRL, and hence people in the legal system were an extension of the state.
Ktos 16 | 436
18 Feb 2016 #54
Complete nonsense, I think your mum in law told you fairy tales buddy. You have no idea of the system of the time, come again when you reeducate yourself on political scenery of Poland.
OP Ziemowit 14 | 4,258
18 Feb 2016 #55
The commie side's chief negotiator Stanisław Ciosek said when it was being filmed (during the secret talks) that if it was ever shown to the public "we would all be branded Targowica."

Of all the top commies I used to watch on TV at that time, Stanisław Ciosek was perhaps the most sensible and most honest guy of them all. Wasn't he a long-time ambassador to Moscow in the 1990s, an important post at that turbulent time? To me Mr Ciosek has always been a most clever analyst of the political scene in Poland as well as Poland's relations with Russia.

The well-known tag team have been persistently and deliberately confusing in this thread the role of Wałęsa in the 1980s and after with his actions before 1976. Their stance is basically "Leave him alone, Lech Wałęsa is a monument". Interestingly enough, they would show no such attitude towards some other people like, for example, RC bishops, Pope JPII or last, but not least, Rajmund Kaczyński. In those latter cases, this tag team would simply opt for "all truth must be revealed - irrespectively of someone's merits".
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Feb 2016 #56
In those latter cases, this infamous tag team would simply opt for "all truth must be revealed - irrespectively of someone's merits".

Not me. I would like either all or nothing. If Wałęsa's activities are so interesting, then so are Rajmund Kaczyński's activities. Or we could put them in the past and get it over and done with.

I'm only sorry that the international media has picked up the story without pointing out that Jarek is simply trying to settle a feud from 25 years ago.

But anyway, if it's revealed that Wałęsa was a paid informer, then it means that *every* figure in Polish political history is now under suspicion. If Wałęsa could, anyone could, and the trail leads straight to a comfortable flat in Zoliborz.

You have no idea of the system of the time, come again when you reeducate yourself on political scenery of Poland.

What would you know, Aussie?
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
18 Feb 2016 #57
infamous tag team

One of their chief traits is horse-blinkered prejudice and an inabiltiy to see both sides of the story. Michnik is another of their sacred cows who can do no wrong. They not only ignore his blood-stainednd judaeo-commie roots but also his post-1989 misdeeds. One of them is described by

one of the pro-Polish dissidents sidetracked by the PZPR/KOR/Solidarity estsablishment Krzysztof Wyszkowski who wrote on Twitter: "There was a time when Michnik lambasted Wałęsa's anti-Semitism. Now he supports Wałęsa together with his anti-Semitism because most important is combating Polishness. Michnik you scoundrel, go on TVN live and on your knees apologise to Poles for a quarter-centruy of the basest anti-Polish lies. Then turn over GW."
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
18 Feb 2016 #58
Then turn over GW

Oh, this is what is is about, isn't it?

It's not about Gazeta Wyborcza, it's about the fact that someone that disagrees with the right wing controls the biggest publisher in Poland.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
18 Feb 2016 #59
Wałęsa

It turns out that Wałęsa was more guilty than I had thought. My impression had been that he signed something just to get the SB off his back and thought he had outfoxed them. But IPN head Łukasz Kamiński reports that the file found at the Kiszczak's also contians receipts signed by Wałęsa for the cash paymetns he had received. Probably the dossiers will reveal many other facts not only about Wałęsa.

telewizjarepublika.pl/prezes-ipn-w-dokumentach-czeslawa-kiszczaka-odnaleziono-odrecznie-napisane-zobowiazanie-do-wspolpracy-podpisane-lech-walesa-quotbolekquot,29697.html
Ktos 16 | 436
18 Feb 2016 #60
Walesa was for a long time suspected of being SB informant, he played many sides that chameleon.


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