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Austria's swing to the far right on Poland?

OP Lyzko 25 | 7,139
20 Oct 2017 #61
Perhaps had there been a referendum in any of the affected EU countries and the citizenry were able to decide for themselves, there wouldn't have been such an outcry nor this type of move by the Far Right:-)
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,553
20 Oct 2017 #62
Exactly. Unfortunately, the EU only supports votes, referendums, etc. which don't challenge its authority and ideology. We've seen this time and time again and we're seeing it now with the situation in California. EU goes on about democracy, respecting peoples' rights, etc yet they have no such condemnation of Madrid suppressing Catalonian referendums, elections, etc. And Catalonia if independent wants to join the EU lol
mafketis 23 | 8,428
20 Oct 2017 #63
suppressing Catalonian referendum

The Spanish constitution (approved by an absolute majority of eligible voters in Catalonia) forbid the referendum.

If a province can simply opt out then there is no rule of law, just rule of mob and strongman (which Spain has done much to escape the Catalan separatists are trying to destroy the rule of law and replace it with the rule of an angry mob which has never represented the majority).
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,553
20 Oct 2017 #64

Still, it appears that most the Catalonians wanted to have a referendum of some sorts. In some cases, I'd saw laws were meant to be broken only to be reformed later - i.e. civil rights movement, females being able to drive in Saudi Arabia, etc.

A referendum held in Catalonia in 2014 indicated that 92% of the 2.3 million voters supported Catalonia's transformation into a state. On 9 November 2015, Catalan lawmakers approved a plan for secession from Spain by 2017 with a majority vote 72 to 63.

Perhaps its a bad example. Nonetheless, the EU only appears to support referendums, ideologies, parties, agendas, laws, etc that are in line with their own. Even if a EU member's citizens overwhelmingly reject something the EU mandates, say the issue of migrants from me and Africa in Poland, they will criticize the country and its leadership - even the citizens as being islamaphobic. It criticized UK for exercising its right to leave the EU and said they'd experience tremendous economic hardship. Or for example criticizing Romania for tearing down illegally built structures and say the government and people are anti-Roma. etc etc

EU countries and the citizenry were able to decide for themselves, there wouldn't have been such an outcry nor this type of move by the Far Right:-)

You're right in a way. There wouldn't be any need for this anti-migrant movement if the EU wasn't forcing us to accept migrants and leftist quasi socialist ideologies onto the citizens of Poland (As well as other nations). We want to decide figure our own political and social issues we don't need this. We joined the EU for economic reasons and political cooperation - not for people to tell us what age our retirements should be, who we should and shouldn't let into our borders (save for EU citizens of course), and telling us not to shut down Soros funded NGOs interested in subversion when an ideology or agenda doesn't agree with his/theirs, etc. First off, Merkel should have held a referendum and asked Germans to vote if they want to take in all these migrants in the first place. OR at least asked the other EU nations if we wanted such a massive migration into the continent BEFORE telling us that we must now act in 'solidarity' and share the BURDEN that she created. Now Merkel has to deal with AfD - that's what she gets as a direct result of her folly.

If it weren't for the migrant issue the right - both far and more center right - wouldn't enjoy the record level popularity it does all over C and E Europe. It'd still be popular as there's always been a left/right divide in western civilization since the early 20th century but this migrant crisis has pushed the more open minded centrists firmly to the right. Not only that, the left's policies have become more and more radical, resemble a weird neo-socialist-communist model, and are promoting things that most traditional Christian (even if only nominally) families aren't too fond of - which is only pushing more people onto the side of the right. The average European adult in their 40's, 50's, 60's, and beyond remembers Communism - if not living in a Commie country at least knowing a lot about it due to the Cold War, remembers growing up in a Europe that was much more peaceful, much more homogenous, was more religious and traditional (even in PRL Poland), was more equal, and didn't have the issues of crime, terrorism, etc that they do now (Save for the Communist terror attacks on planes and Jews and such in the 70s). This is why the reactionary movement is growing. Many people, especially adults, speak fondly of the 'good old days' where they didn't have these kind of issues. There's a big divide - there's those who have embraced the leftist ideologies of non traditional families, mixed race societies, diminished role of religion and national identity, European culture, etc. On top of that, the European youth have grown increasingly patriotic and nationalist. They see the migrants who have come - mainly young men - and they see them as competition. They believe that the future is not going to be better with them here. They see all the crime, terror, and money being spent to help migrants while citizens and EU residents who have lived here for years, generations are being pushed aside. Soros calls for 1 million migrants to be taken in each year and $30k to be given to them over a period of 2 years. Well, when have European citizen been given $30k for free from their government (except for those on welfare) simply for moving from one place to another? The youth is embracing its national and religious identity more and more - just as the Muslim youth embrace their religion more and more and the radical ones plan attacks, they rape kuffar prostitute women and think That's why now there's such a sharp divide with few people in the center. Even the centrists are considered to be more conservative simply because of how far left the political ideologies of W. Europe especially have gone.

Also the whole left/right is relative and subjective. PO is considered a 'left' party in Poland but yet they have many views that would be considered more center/center-right in a place like the US, perhaps even 'populist,' more focused towards Christians, more traditional, etc. Unfortunately, they've chosen to ally themselves with unelected commissar Jean Claude Junker
OP Lyzko 25 | 7,139
20 Oct 2017 #65
Furthermore, individual European countries, particularly smaller, homogeneous states such as Austria, Sweden or Denmark for instance, are NOT a melting pot society as is the US said to be, never have been and if folks have their druthers, never will be either! Multiculturalism a la Merkel's failed migrant policies, has been foisted upon Germany, Poland to a far lesser degree, and the countries mentioned above. It is not something they either asked for or were consulted about beforehand. People are slowly getting tired of other such as "Mutti Merkel" forcing the spinach of "tolerance or else" on them and making them eat it, like so many an overbearing parent supervising their wayward charges!

As an AfD supporter recently quipped, "I've been an orphan for the past fourty-six years of my life, so why would I suddenly start to need a mother?"

Personally and as an American-born observer, I still see the need for tolerance, lest we repeat the mistakes of recent history. However, the way the EU has handled her migrant policies, were I an average citizen from one of the above countries, I too might have joined the pack, I'm sorry to say.
mafketis 23 | 8,428
20 Oct 2017 #66
A referendum held in Catalonia in 2014 indicated that 92% of the 2.3 million voters supported Catalonia's transformation into a state.

That was a phony referendum designed to keep those against independence out. In anonymous polling it's never gotten over 50%.

I'd saw laws were meant to be broken only to be reformed later - i.e. civil rights movement, females being able to drive in Saudi Arabia, etc.

that only works when they cannot be reformed, not the case in Spain. The independistes (mostly SJWS and soys and crooks) just don't want to bother with actually doing the work.
OP Lyzko 25 | 7,139
20 Oct 2017 #67
I think Austrians are reacting AWAY from mainstream liberalism much the way Britons by and large reacted AWAY from perceived Bruxelles meddling in their affairs in the guise of European imperialists, and thus voted en masse for Brexit.
mafketis 23 | 8,428
20 Oct 2017 #68
I think Austrians are reacting AWAY from mainstream liberalism

No pendulum swings in one direction forever.... what we're witnessing now is the return to the other direction after 50 or so years of unfettered (often undisciplined and unhinged) progressivism.

The best way to limit the damage to pet projects is to get out in front of it instead of trying to keep pulling the pendulum after it's reached its peak....
OP Lyzko 25 | 7,139
24 Oct 2017 #69
Nonetheless, the failed migrant policies, to which by the way, the Austrian conservative victory is but a reaction, lie squarely at her doorstep, despite her own party giving a thumbs down.
SigSauer 4 | 413
24 Oct 2017 #70

Right, could you give me some clarity though as to the question I asked? Were you conflating people who disagree with your world view as being Neo-Nazis? I only ask because a recent tactic has been to conflate wanting strict immigration policies with Neo-Nazism, rather than traditional conservatism and wanting to preserve our societies, which seems to be a legitimate position for all countries with non-white majorities. I actually do believe that (at least in America) the left/progressives are ardent racists, as they seek to ascribe more or less value to individuals based on the group they belong to, it is identity politics of the lowest order.

We certainly should fill our labor needs with immigrants when it suits us, however, those immigrants should be highly skilled (H1B visas), and from cultures that share our core values (such as liberal values, women being equal, LGBT rights to exist as they want, religious freedoms, freedom of speech; especially freedom to insult your religious sensibilities).

If these people are not a danger, why then, from 2014-2017 did Poland take 1.1 million Ukrainian refugees, in the same span of time Germany took 1 million Syrian&North African refugees; yet in Poland, no one has driven laury's into crowds of people, no one has blown themselves up at a concert, or gone on a knife stabbing spree? What is the difference? People in Ukraine are dirt poor, I was a resident, and I know first hand how destitute many of them are. If it is not economics, then what is the reason for this disparity in violence? I have an idea, but I'd like to hear yours.
OP Lyzko 25 | 7,139
24 Oct 2017 #71
Someone who disagrees with me I've never called a "Neo-Nazi", SigSauer! That's labeling, and I find such to be repugnant.
Someone who disagrees with me without a proper foundation I'll gladly call a moron, but that's called education, not labeling:-)
SigSauer 4 | 413
24 Oct 2017 #72
Yea, and I made sure not to accuse you of such, I was just trying to clarify what I thought was an imprecise thought or language regarding that.
OP Lyzko 25 | 7,139
24 Oct 2017 #73
The point I was making from the very outset of this thread is that Europeans, not only Austrians, seem to have short memory, forgetting the reasons that a people migrate from one country to the other in the first place! Many have forgotten as well, that the Austro-Hungarian Empire, though not multi-cultural as New York, for instance, DID represent a degree of diversity which was unique at that time.
Tacitus 2 | 1,142
24 Oct 2017 #74
Why is there not an epidemic of rape and sexual assault across Poland right now?

Not that there is one in Germany either mind you.
OP Lyzko 25 | 7,139
24 Oct 2017 #75
Rape has nothing to do per se with the ethnicity of the rapist! This remained one of the big stereotypes during the '70's and '80's in Germany, whereby if a rapist attacked a German woman, it was usually thought to have been the work of a foreigner, specifically, a Turk:-) This led to the vicious espursions cast upon Turkish people as "Kuemmeltuerken" or "Dirty Turks".

Somehow, when a German attacked a Turkish woman, the incident was either not reported, or the woman was made to appear as a slut.
SigSauer 4 | 413
24 Oct 2017 #76

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......ok.... I'll just leave this morsel right here for you to ponder, as we watch liberals heads spin trying to explain away the massive amount of sexual assaults that happened in Cologne.

Aside from the actual hard facts, in which sexual assaults have indeed gone up in number due to the refugee influx, do you know any actual German people? I mean, we can speak anecdotally for a minute, and I'll say that the Germans I work with do not want to go back to their country, and frequently refer to it as "ruined." The chickens are coming home to roost, in Germany and in Sweden.

You could continue to be completely disingenuous and borderline willfully dishonest in order to toe the party line of progressive self-destruction and voting against your own self-interests. However, the only thing that position is going to get you, me, and the rest of Europe, is MORE far-right politicians in office. It should say something when we actually had to contemplate whether Marine LaPen and Geert Wilders would win an election. I really would not like to see far-right politicians in office in Europe, but continue to advocate those policies of the forced proven failure of multiculturalism, and that is what we will have.

(as an aside, I generally think the characterization of these politicians as 'far-right' is overblown hyperbolics designed to detract from them personally, and not have to address the valid points in their message)
OP Lyzko 25 | 7,139
24 Oct 2017 #77
During the '30's, Germany's Jews en masse were accused of the most heinous crimes, including rape, blood libel, using the blood of German children to make matzoh etc.. all of which turned out of course to be vicious, hateful lies.

Need we witness a repeat performance?
Tacitus 2 | 1,142
24 Oct 2017 #78

I'll just leave this morsel right here for you to ponder, as we watch liberals heads spin trying to explain away the massive amount of sexual assaults that happened in Cologne.

Cologne is a regrettable exception, not the rule. The culprits were also not from Syria, but North Africa.
cms 9 | 1,271
25 Oct 2017 #79
Thinking Poland should abide by its previous agreements and contribute to the EU does not make you a radical leftist statist.

And the EU was certainly far more than just an economic entity when Poland voted heavily in favor of joining in 2004.

I'm generally a right wing person - business owner, believe in low taxes, individual responsibility, small govt; but being honest I see more danger in the world today from Trump, Putin and Erdogan than I do from any migrants or from what you appallingly refer to as 7th century cultures.
idem - | 135
25 Oct 2017 #80
I thought that historically every country was created to have borders-army to support it and independence. Don't you see danger with uncontrolled influx of people without any ID, lying about their nationality.....just influx, influx with no end ???????
spiritus 68 | 666
25 Oct 2017 #81
Many have forgotten as well, that the Austro-Hungarian Empire, though not multi-cultural as New York, for instance, DID represent a degree of diversity which was unique at that time

Migration has been a driving force of society throughout the 20th Century but they were nearly all legal migrants who applied through the proper channels.

What is happening today is that migrants are trying to gang rush vulnerable borders and that cannot be allowed to continue
mafketis 23 | 8,428
25 Oct 2017 #82
I see more danger in the world today from Trump, Putin and Erdogan than I do from any migrants or from what you appallingly refer to as 7th century cultures

They're both dangers, and it's not the 7th century that's the danger, it's the very modern Saudi inspired Sunni convergence to fundamentalist values that is the problem. Both the rise of third world style Big Man leaders (Trump, Putin, Erdogan) and politicized Islam are symptoms of failure to adapt to modernity.
Roger5 1 | 1,458
25 Oct 2017 #83
The appeal of autocratic leaders (and I hesitate to use the word leader in connection with the toddler-in-chief) lies in their ability to offer simple solutions to simple people in an increasingly complex world.
SigSauer 4 | 413
25 Oct 2017 #84

You know that I was totally on board with just about everything you said, until you had to add in "appallingly." Right, because I currently live in the Middle East, and you're going to tell pontificate to me about how there is not a pervasive problem in the cultures of people from this region. I live here and deal with them every single day. So yes I will repeat that the people from this region and North Africa do indeed have 7th century cultural ideologies when it comes to the role of women, their rights, and the rights of LGBTQ people and their ability to live their lives and exist. They have open hostility to western civilization, our values, our right to exist as a country, our religion, and to suggest otherwise is an affront to the people who have given their lives in furtherance of those ideas. They do not have any place in our society, their cultural ideologies being antithetical to European liberal values. It has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of melanin in their skin, and everything to do with the ideas in their heads. Open up your spare bedroom to them, if you feel so strongly and are such a humanitarian.

I will have to laugh at the idea that Poland's previous government made that deal, so of course the new one has to honor it. Ukraine gave up 1,200 nuclear weapons and the United Kingdom and United States in exchange for protecting its sovereignty. If two of the biggest powers in the world do not honor their agreements, I think you are holding Poland to an unjust and unfair standard on this issue. (I'm American btw).

If you check the news, KSA has announced that they are ending the practice of promoting extreme versions of its religion, and will be joining the rest of us in the 21st century. Of course I will believe it when I see it, but the changes have already begun to take place on the ground.
cms 9 | 1,271
25 Oct 2017 #85
Well you probably have more experience of those places than I do. Most of my exposure to the Muslim world has been in Pakistan and Bangladesh, but I haven't really travelled in the Middle East. There are plenty of unsavoury aspects of western culture, I have just come back from my morning swim, where I saw vapid tattooed girls taking endless narcissistic selfies (not that I minded !).

Of course, you have no problem taking their money! Not sure what line of work you're in - defence? But in order to pay you they must have some level of civilisation.

I am not in favour of unrestrained immigration, but I am in favour of genuine refugees being treated with the same dignity as Poles and Hungarians were in the 40s and 50s. I also believe that Poland should aspire to be a modern, cooperative member of the EU and not just to replace the UK as the awkward squad. That means working with our neighbours to solve big problems and little problems.
SigSauer 4 | 413
25 Oct 2017 #86

Yes, I'm a defense contractor. And thank you for such a reasoned and well tempered response, I genuinely appreciate it, and think we have found common ground. I also believe that genuine refugees do deserve refuge, I do take issue with the fact that under international law (if such a thing exists), they are to seek refuge in the first safe country they reach. But alas, that isn't the reality we currently find ourselves in. Countries with genuine conflicts do qualify, but certainly these economic refugees from all over Africa MUST be repatriated to their country of register.

To your previous point. Yes, we do take their money, although I work on a contract administered by the US government, so I'm not actually sure whose money I'm taking! The reality however is, that any ESSENTIAL functions in these countries are not provided by local residents. All essential functions are provided by westerners (US/UK/AUS/NZ/GER/FRA/SPA), all menial labor is then provided by Indians,Bangladeshis,Sri Lankans, & Pakistanis. To give you some perspective, The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has a population of 23 million, 8.6 million of them being expatriates. Bahrain has a population of 600,000, with 300,000 being expatriates. The United Arab Emirates is 70% expatriates by population, and on, and on, and on. I do not view it as taking their money however, because we function to preserve the sovereignty of these countries, and our governments (I assume you're from the US or UK) guarantee their security and territorial integrity. So really it is more of an exchange, than some sort of perverse exploitation.
Atch 17 | 3,225
25 Oct 2017 #87
I posted this back in August:

Kaczyński may replace Her Nibs as PM in November. The army is already under the control of the party.

I just read that yesterday Her Nibs confirmed that there will be changes in the government within the next few weeks. It will be interesting to see whether Himself will actually step into her shoes. PIS is really going to step up the swing to the Right, I believe.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,094
25 Oct 2017 #88
there will be changes in the government within the next few weeks

Rumor is that 'stuknięty Antek' (is 'cuckoo Tony' a good translation?) will stay. Have you perhaps seen Episode 21 of the "Ucho Prezesa" series?
Atch 17 | 3,225
25 Oct 2017 #89
I have NOW! That's very funny. I wasn't aware of this. Very good for my Polish 'listening' practice:))
Ziemowit 13 | 4,094
25 Oct 2017 #90
Episode 21 is the one starring PM Beata Szydło, right? At one point Chairman JK tells her to relax and asks her to tell a joke. So she tells him this joke on Antoni.

In my view, Robert Górski as Jarosław Kaczyński is even more convincing than the real Chaiman himself. Can you recognize who his companion (Mariusz) is in real life?

Very good for my Polish 'listening' practice:))

Political satire is very good for that. I remember some monologues of BBC Radio 4 Weekending's Mrs Thatcher to this very day!
- I am not dogmatic! Everyone who says I am is wrong! And that is all there is to it !!!

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