Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 10

What can I say in response to this?

The main reason for the falling birth rate is very simple. Contraception. There is really not that many people who willingly would have more than 2-3 kids. I know plenty that have enough after one.

Places with a high birth rate are usually places where people cannot decide on how many kids they want

@Lenka

Edit, my reply to Torq below gives some perspective on why birth rates are so high in poor countries, Even now, the more wage earners you can produce, the less likely you'll go hungry.


The 80% with the lowest birth rate and an extremely low life expectancy.

When the change comes, it will be rapid.


It doesn't seem that way on the ground however it would be sensible if they did use contraception and abortion more.


They had large families precisely because they were poorer. The sooner there were extra wages coming in (very soon given child labour) the better and the mor younger earners the better since adults were worn out earlier and had no old age pensions.

both play a role (and you have to distinguish liberalism from neoliberalism, something very different)

the loss of religion is maybe less critical since demographic problems are spread across more and less pious societies... it plays a role partly because neoiberalism is incompatible with most religious practice as it deifies the individual...

The appropriate response: Torq, you are right. 🙂

I'm sure you'd be singing a different song if you or your family member was one of the suspects and innocent lol


Yup. I'd add retirement pensions to that... People don't have to rely so much on their adult kids financially supporting them once they get too old to work. 🤔

Right.

Kania is often right, but it's rarely something to put a smile on the face.

@Bobko

Truth's beauty is always worthy of a smile, even when it's uncomfortable.

High birth rate is a characteristic of uneducated societies where there is no concept of contraception and family planning. Other factors are the strong influence of religion and poverty. Where there are no organized societies, where there is no welfare state and pension system, people are forced to have children as social insurance for the old days. These people often live from agriculture, so they also create a workforce for themselves. Palestinians and Chechens do not fall into these categories, except that they are religiously deranged idlers. This is how they behave in the West, where they live in peace and prosperity. Palestinians and Lebanese are leaders among criminal clans in Germany. They are best known for social fraud. You won't see anyone working. Only social security and some kind of small business, often behind which is crime. Chechens as well. There are quite a few of them in Vienna and I have never seen a Chechen working. Only the gym, MMA, some beatings, crime and Wahhabism.

The so-called youth bulge has long been known in the Islamic world. They have a surplus of young people that they cannot provide for economically, so they want to burden them on us here in Europe. If they are not here, huge sums of money must be pumped into these Islamic countries so that they do not collapse. The Gulf dictatorships do not let the "brothers" in, because they know that they are anti-social non-workers like them, so they just import slave labor from South and Southeast Asia.

After the birth rate falls the population continues to grow for a while (it's called demographic momentum).

I'll also add that widespread affordable contraception, easy divorce and the primacy of career over family all part of neoliberalism (as is the retreat of religion). Pensions are pre-neoliberal but mostly.... let's just say don't count on them in the future....

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Or characteristic of societies with appallingly low wages, mass unemployment with no welfare state, no social safety net, no old age pension, no national health service and no decent free education system.

Families need as many chances of earning wages or other income, however small, as they can produce.

I like those aspects of "neoliberalism" then. Don't you?

It is, in some ways, very appealing but it comes at a price that many don't realize until it's too late.

Me too. And almost any women that could be faced with 8, 10 or 12 pregnancies

Everything usually comes with some kind of price, like, for example - technical and industrial development. But somehow I don't hear many men whining about pollution from car traffic and saying that they would happily switch from cars to bicycles :))) (Btw, pollution contributes to infertility.)


Yup.

To look at it from a purely material matter, one of the economic principles shared by most, if not all, economic theories I've ever heard about is economic growth is dependent on population increase.

We're starting to hear that AI will help us fill the gap, but I doubt it.

Besides, what I think Torq is really arguing against as the flaw of a purely material existence void of an ethos rooted in the objective Truth of God is that humanity loses its innate dignity and is seen only as a material being. A being that exists purely to consume and be consumed. Hence, children become a kind of consumer product.

Why don't you write here more often?

Would make this place a bit less cannibalistic.

Oh, I don't doubt it, unfortunately...


I see the opposite of that. It was in the past when children were being seen as material investment and marriage as sort of trade exchange.

Also, that's my impression of men almost obsessively complaining about falling birth rates and how "easy" divorce is these days. They seem to view children as product that is supposed to get "multiplied" so they would have their retirement pensions covered and immigrants not getting "imported" to their countries and they seem to view women as nothing more than that "product providers". Those men don't seem to care what kind of lives those children and women will have. It's like they don't view them as human beings or sth...

So, I actually think that children are increasingly seen as human beings with rights these days, rather than "material products".

standard.co.uk/comment/ukraine-war-russia-vladimir-putin-volodymyr-zelensky-b1148294.html

Not sure on the reputation of this one, but it states the obvious.

As I said. Apostasy.

We have all betrayed Our Lord Jesus Christ :(. Well, not AntV, Grunni and Atch, they're stalwarts, but the rest of us here are a bunch of Judases. We betrayed Him for a bit more money, for a bit more comfort, for our silly whims and worldly ambitions. We are holding hammers in our hands and putting new nails in the body of Jesus every day. Woe to us and all that. :( Sorry if that fails to put a smile on your face, Bobi.


Exactly. Civilisation of death... anti-culture. We should have listened to John Paul II more attentively, instead of just shouting "we love you" and waving our silly little flags.

@Bobko

Because, I have a low tolerance for cannibalism.

@Paulina

Thoughtful response.

It's not just men who are concerned about falling birth rates women also are concerned. It's not a man v woman thing from what I can tell.

I think your response is still rooted in materialism. What I believe Torq is arguing (and I completely agree with him) is that modern western societies have lost its natural grounding. That our ultimate beginning and end ( our Aloha and Omega) is relational. That fruitfulness is ultimately relational, not merely transactional. That a child is fruit from a relationship, not the product of a mere transaction.

I'm on the verge of rambling and not doing the topic justice. Read Karol Wojtyła's Love and Responsibility for an excellent exposition on the topic.

The bottom line is our ultimate problem in the west is our understanding of human love has become completely turned inside-out and disordered , and this is because we've told the Author of Love to get lost, we know better.



Great minds.... 😄

I guess there is not a main reason for the low birth rates.
there are a few issues combined. those are {
1. a welfare state
2. contraception
3. a global liberalism. Un sistema económico fundado on greed and nothing else.
4. mass media that gaslight people to lead lives that are good for greedy corporations not for the people.

I never met a women that would complain about that. Here we already have quite few men doing just that.


More sin. I know plenty of Christians that use contraception. 98% I would say.

While religion may play a role I would say that humans, when given a choice, simply don't want a lot of kids. Women probably more than men as , let's face it, it's a bigger impact on their lives

Sorry, but that's not really true, is it... Being religious doesn't stop Catholics in Poland from using contraception :)))


I don't recall Jesus saying "Go and multiply as much as you can" lol


Nope. The civilisation of humanity.


Sure, but I only hear men whining like that and I'm only getting such vibe from men only - that they would like to go back to as things were in the past and that they don't care about what lives those kids will have or even if they're going to be wanted. Women's solutions are - more preschools, husbands sharing duties at home, etc. and men's solutions are - making wives their slaves again, stopping them from working, etc. Such men seem to only care about themselves.

Hence my "we are all Judases crucifying Our Lord anew" and all that.


Being religious doesn't stop anyone from anything. Pharisees were extremely religious people.


And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it (...)"

That's what God said and Jesus Christ is God. A person who doesn't have any children because he/she wants good education first, a good job first, a house first, a PhD on 17th century Latvian cutlery first, yearly holidays on Pierdololo Island first etc. etc. etc. is definitely not following God's command, and there are throngs of people like that roaming the earth.


Your "civilisation of humanity" slaughters children. Ever heard of partial birth abortion, for example?

Not only you hate men and are sexist but you are also dumb,geez!

Apostasy isn't a subjective matter defined by popular opinion or practice, but an objective matter. The question is whether or not religious belief guides an individual-in the case of a Catholic practicing artificial contraception they are not being guided by religious belief.


I'd confidently challenge the veracity of that. That's a caricature from 60's and 70's American feminism. I know a lot of men who would be labeled traditionalists. I read a shitload of these types of guys also. Not one subscribes to the above caricatures. All are pretty much like me: charming loving partners who would lay down his life for his wife and children, who treat his wife like a dignified woman, loves her unconditionally (even when she's biatch), encourages her to thrive professionally and personally, and shares in household responsibilities.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about. It's the men on this forum, for example, who are giving me the impression that they view kids as a product. And that they don't care what happens to this "product". They only care about multiplying it. I don't know, maybe it stems from lower empathy levels in men.


He wasn't married and had no kids. He didn't "multiply" lol So why should I listen to him on this topic? :)


Well, and people did that - they filled the Earth and subdued it already. This made sense long ago when there weren't many people yet. But now? Do you want the planet to get overpopulated? Religious people should also use reason - that's one of God's gifts to us, isn't it.


Sorry, but, again, I don't know what you're talking about.

If you gave everyone on the planet a house with a garden, they would all fit into Texas.

Some countries may have problems with public amenities, infrastructure, health services etc. but to say that the planet is overpopulated is nonsense. It's a lie fed to us as a part of the death culture (or anti-culture rather).

@Torq, there has to be some nature left on this planet. We shouldn't cover it all with human settlements. We can't cut down the Amazon Rainforest, the planet's lungs, to make way for farms, for example.


It would get overpopulated at some point with your attitude. So when would you think it would be OK to stop listening to God about "multiplying"? Or you just wouldn't care and you would tell people to follow it blindly no matter what happens as result?