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Abortion still under control in Poland


Torq
25 Oct 2020 #1,591
When rightwingers lose power one day

When, Pawian? When is this "one day" going to come?

2023? Highly unlikely - the opposition will be again divided into cuntillion of parties: PO, Konfederacja (they are gravitating towards coalition with PiS anyway), SLD, PSL, Kukiz (with PSL or separately), Ruch Hołowni, Lewica Razem, Lewica Nierazem, Ruch Trzaskowskiego etc. etc. and PiS will come, get their 35% or so, and win the elections again. That's D'Hondt's method for you. It doesn't make me happy, as I don't support PiS in most matters, but if it's the only way to save unborn children, then so be it.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,282
25 Oct 2020 #1,592
Highly unlikely

Quite likely. As the saying goes: Pride walks before the fall (Pycha kroczy przed upadkiem).
Chemikiem 7 | 2,509
25 Oct 2020 #1,593
Why does a brit homo care about abortions in Poland,

Can you not see the bigger picture here? Look at what's happened to democracy in Poland since PiS came to power. Although this new ruling primarily affects women, a draconian decision like this is everybody's business. Ask yourself what will come next.

give you the right to make the choice for actual women.

The point is that the women aren't actually being given any choice............

I think most regular posters here already know my views on this topic, but I have had first hand experience of sharing the care of bringing up a Down's Syndrome child. I have also in the past worked with children with special educational needs and adults with learning difficulties. Many of those adults had been placed into homes by parents unable or unwilling to cope with them.

Bringing up children with disabilitites is tough, even with the right support and finances, something sadly lacking in Poland. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to bring up a child with severe disabilities, or to carry a child to full-term knowing that it will die soon after. To force a woman into those sort of life-changing situations is barbaric.

BTW, the Down's Syndrome child is now an adult and funding for her care ran out when she hit 18 years old. She is unable to work and lives with her mother full time. There is only one decision left now that her parents worry about constantly, who will look after her when they are gone?
Ironside 50 | 10,939
25 Oct 2020 #1,594
The point is t

such a levitation was already in place. I keep repeating it but none listen. They i.e. gov didn't need any new bill to correct it. They just could have issued a small correction.

Hey by they decided it will do them good if they pose as friends to pro-life supporters. Its a political stunt.
If they would do it right as they should you wouldn't even heard about it.
Read Torq post how that overlooked legislation had been overused.

levitation

WTF it should be legislation,
Torq
25 Oct 2020 #1,595
To force a woman into those sort of life-changing situations is barbaric.

No. To murder a child, because it would be difficult for the mother to take care of it, is barbaric.
pawian 176 | 14,299
25 Oct 2020 #1,596
but if it's the only way to save unborn children, then so be it.

I can`t even blame you coz decades ago I was a similar fundamentalist. :) But life taught me that nothing is only black or white. You see murdered feotuses, I see women and families burdened with care. Not all people are and want to be so heroic. I have been working in a charity which deals with such cases so I have seen enough.
Atch 17 | 3,427
25 Oct 2020 #1,597
They way i see it, as a Catholic, is that God sends us certain situations in our lives for his own reasons which are unfathomable to us but he leaves us free will to respond them as we will. All the greatest writers and theologians of the Catholic faith have discussed the concept of free will, so central is it to Catholic teaching. The gifts of the Holy Spirit conferred at Confirmation are supposed to help us in making those choices. It is between us and God and other Catholics do not have the right to tell us what to do when we are faced with a moral dilemma.

So, even for a practising Catholic, the doctrines of the church tell them that they have free choice.

Why then, should it be any different for others? Every human being has the right to excercise choice and free will, where such choices are available. Medical science gives pregnant women certain choices, be it whether to have scans, tests, anaesthesia etc. That's the modern world in which the human race lives. It is not up to the state, or a group of people with a set of religious or moral beliefs to take those choices away.

People have sought to avoid conception, sought to abort babies and even resorted to murdering newborns since mankind first became capable of trying to exert control over those activities. Medical science allows these things to be done in an acceotabe and humane fashion. Medical advances are a gift given to us by God, let's use them, according to our individual consciences.

The responsibility of the state is to ensure that medical procedures are carried out ethically and humanely without avoidable pain and suffering. That's what they should focus on.
Torq
25 Oct 2020 #1,598
free choice

You have free will, so you can take a knife and murder your neighbour in his garden. The law is there to make sure such deeds are illegal. Murder, commited our of free will, is still murder (even more so, if it is commited out of free will and in a sane state of mind).

even resorted to murdering newborns (...) Medical science allows these things to be done in an acceotabe and humane fashion.

Murdering newborns in an acceptable fashion? Do you ever read what you write? What's wrong with you people?

medical procedures

You can talk about "foetuses", "medical procedures", "lumps of cells" etc. blah-blah-blah yadda-yadda-yadda, but murder is still murder. Murder of an innocent, weak child, in its mother's womb. And because of what? Lack of money? Discomfort caused by the necessity of providing care for the child? Difficulties and worries in raising it?

Seriously people... you make me sick. And it's not just an expression - you literally make me want to throw up. :-/

I'm out of here...
Ziemowit 13 | 4,282
25 Oct 2020 #1,599
I'm out of here...

Hahaha, his religious fanaticism couln't stand the PF any longer ...
Atch 17 | 3,427
25 Oct 2020 #1,600
Murder

Society universally accepts a definition of murder. That's why the law legislates for it. Society does not universally accept abortion as murder. That's why most countries in the western world allow abortions to be perfomed and they are entirely lawful.

Murdering newborns in an acceptable fashion?

It shouldn't come to that, if a person is allowed to have an abortion. I was referring to cultures where people still do things like kill female babies at birth. Would you prefer to see that or abortion. I know which I'd choose.

Lack of money? Discomfort caused by the necessity of providing care for the child? Difficulties and worries ?

You demonstrate a disturbing lack of empathy and compassion. What is your present involvement with disabled children and their families?

A few of us here have personal experience of it. What's yours and what are your views on the three issues you've raised?
Ziemowit 13 | 4,282
25 Oct 2020 #1,601
What is your present involvement with disabled children and their families?

None.
Poloniusz 4 | 603
25 Oct 2020 #1,602
blah-blah-blah yadda-yadda-yadda

Abortion advocates depend on lies, half-truths, and euphemisms to mislead the public (which always end up funding the butchery one way or another once it is made legal) and to ensure that women never have to think about the profound consequences of their "right" and "choice" to murder their own baby.

Abortion is always falsely portrayed as needed by women who are always poor, who are always raped, and the result of which always end up in a child with birth defects.

What abortion advocates prefer not to say is that access to abortion is always used disproportionately by middle class women who use it as the most expensive method of birth control. And why not when the expense is socialized and passed along to the tax payer one way or another and getting in close proximity to a rich doctor may also benefit their own hypergamy?

This proves that women don't take advantage of cheaper and effective methods to prevent getting pregnant in the first place like, for example, simply saying no and keeping their legs closed.

In nearly all cases women really do consent to having sex and they really do decide ahead of time to make themselves available to get pregnant.

They only have a change of mind to not carry their baby to term when it comes to any of the following:

- they look back and regret having sex for any given neurotic self-serving reason;

- they want to retaliate against the father of the baby for any given neurotic self-serving reason;

- they suddenly realize that the medical warnings were right all along and their debauched lifestyle of smoking, drinking, and drug taking shouldn't have continued during their pregnancy and now they have a child with birth defects;

- they suddenly realize that feminism has lied to them all along and putting their career and hedonistic lifestyle first and putting off having a baby until they were 35 years and older would significantly raise the medical risk of them having a baby with Down Syndrome.

- they actually have a sexual fetish of getting pregnant and murdering their own baby (source: theliberal.ie/new-fetish-trending-online-involves-couples-purposefully-getting-pregnant-so-they-can-abort-for-sexual-gratification/)
Lenka 3 | 2,577
25 Oct 2020 #1,603
Forcing a women to carry and give birth to a baby that won't survive the birth or die soon after is awful in my opinion.

I think it will backfire. Women will be even less eager to get pregnant. And if they will find out the baby is sick they will be more likely to abort. Instead of going home and discussing with the father, maybe parents and siblings she will run home to google 'abortion Czech' and keep her mouth shut. More fear will work against keeping the baby
Ironside 50 | 10,939
25 Oct 2020 #1,604
But life taught me that nothing is only black or white.

Dude, people are not only good or bad they are mix of both. However when it comes to principles for the most part there is only black and white and if you don't understand that you better stick to being a serf and do as you are told.

I see women and families burdened with care.

Oh you think you are so wise and experienced. dude so have I. I don't dismiss people who are not heroic, who suffer and who burdened. I understand that.

It your petty character at play here that make you making unwarranted assumptions.
So what the solution in you opinion - kill the babies to make it easier? With a such attuite you could shake hands with Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot they all based they murders on a rationale that they are the once who can decide who needs killing.

Do you think IF you make an excuse but those are fetuses' it makes you any different? Nah Hitler had those euphemizes for other human being too, excuses and eugenic in the USA. They only are a burden for others, those suffer, those are just waste of space, it is for good of their parents, society, nation, humanity.

We heard it all.
Who are you to make that call, eh?
Can you handle consequences? I bet you are not, as most people who post on this topic. What worse they don't see nor understand consequences.

So, even for a practising Catholic, the doctrines of the church tell them that they have free choice.

I think you are in the waters that are too deep for you. Sure you have a free choice, it is up to you to do make a bad or a good choice. You can side with the devil if you want that is your free choice.

You came across as someone who thinks a free choice is a buffet - hey I can choose this dogma, oh and that doctrine looks nice, but this is yucky this is impractical that too hard, no thank you. lol Yeah Atch go for girl lol !
pawian 176 | 14,299
25 Oct 2020 #1,605
when it comes to principles for the most part there is only black and white

That`s your private narrow-minded opinion which most people discussing the issue here don`t agree with.

With a such attuite you could shake hands with Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot

Really? I think you are too quick tempered now, relax, darling. Did I say that me and my wife would abort pregnancy? No, I didn `t. As for other people, terminating or keeping pregnancy is their own business. Who are you to tell people what they have to do?. It is a fascist style of thinking.

Can you handle consequences?

And you? How many familiies with disabled children do you help?

free choice is a buffet - hey I can choose this dogma, oh and that doctrine looks nice,

But that`s exactly what you have been doing here for years! You choose what suits you best. Now you are defending feotuses, while a few weeks ago you threatened to burn another poster`s house for disagreeing with you. Arsonist and potential murderer turned into a Pro-Life activist. Isn`t it funny?? . hahahaha
Ironside 50 | 10,939
25 Oct 2020 #1,606
private narrow-minded opinion which most people

fallacy not rebuttal

Really?

Really! From ethical and logical point of view there is no difference in an attitude only in means.

It is a fascist style of thinkin

WTF? saying that to kill a child is wrong equals with fascisms? can you go more stupid
pawian 176 | 14,299
25 Oct 2020 #1,607
saying that to kill a child is wrong equals with fascisms?

Saying that isn`t wrong. You can say whatever you want - there is freedom of speech. But you opt for laws which would force people who have different views from you to adopt your point of view. It is a fascist style - isn`t it simple?
Ziemowit 13 | 4,282
25 Oct 2020 #1,608
Protests and marches in Krosno and Jasło in Podkarpackie, a PiS stronghold. Hahahaha

Protests and marches in small towns and villages everywhere in Poland, another PiS stronghold. Hahahaha

Ale żeście sobie narobili bigosu, pisiaki głupie!
jon357 66 | 17,069
25 Oct 2020 #1,609
The protests are getting stronger. And of course the far-right are now getting involved.



gumishu 11 | 5,605
25 Oct 2020 #1,610
Look at what's happened to democracy in Poland

nothing happened to democracy in Poland - we have just had democratic presidential election and PiS won parliamentary election last autumn
Ziemowit 13 | 4,282
25 Oct 2020 #1,611
nothing happened to democracy in Poland

The tripartite separation of powers has been seriously breached. The Constitutinal Tribunal does what the Party tells them. Notice that the Tribunal has not been challenging the abortion law for the last 27 years as the late Preident Kaczyński avised everyone. Do you remember the memorable words of Lech Kaczyński, Gumishu?
pawian 176 | 14,299
25 Oct 2020 #1,612
2023? Highly unlikely - the opposition will be again divided into cuntillion of parties:

Are you sure? You forgot they created an arrangement for Senat elections and won the majority there? It is obvious that they will go officially united in 2023.

and PiS will come, get their 35% or so, and win the elections again.

Yes, they might get about 35% together with Konfederacja. But they won`t win coz the opposition will get the remaining 65%. SImple.
pawian 176 | 14,299
26 Oct 2020 #1,613
No, they won`t bring back the consensual compromise which has existed so far. They will pass a new law about full, unrestricted access to abortion

I warned you, rightists The first appeals for legal abortion on demand have just appeared. Did you really want it? So you will have it - sooner or later.

wysokieobcasy.pl/wysokie-obcasy/7,100865,26433577,walka-o-prawo-do-legalnej-aborcji-to-walka-o-demokracje-koniec.html?
mafketis 24 | 9,385
26 Oct 2020 #1,614
The first appeals for legal abortion on demand have just appeared

Nobody like the previous status quo but everyone had learned to deal with it most of the time. PiS decided to upset that and use activist judges to pacify one of their constituencies (religious crazies) and now everything's up for grabs... and younger, more educated people won't accept this ruling.

I say look for things like groups showing up to escort poorer women to the Czech republic when they want/need abortions (if such doesn't exist already).

This will be a problem because IINM there's no legally defined penalty for women getting abortions...
Lenka 3 | 2,577
26 Oct 2020 #1,615
(if such doesn't exist already

They do. If pregnancy is early they simply order the drugs online. If it's later they help you organise everything. In an article I read the women said it was 500 euro for abortion in Berlin
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,957
26 Oct 2020 #1,616
To be honest I find that most 'Roman Catholics' simply use their religion as a smorgasbord of virtue signalling. Yet don't actually live their lives as true RCS.

I had one acquaintance that must have mentioned her religion to me more or less every time we met as a reason for why she was so 'kind' and so 'nice'.

If anyone has to constantly tell you how 'kind' and 'nice' they are...they probably aren't

It was in fact downright offensive. To those of us raised in different branches of the church.
As she had had a divorce and two children out of wedlock I am afraid I didn't take her mewing about her wonderful catholicism very seriously in the end.

Seems a very 'pick n mix' religion. Plus don't you pay old men in dresses to chant spells or something?
AntV 2 | 167
26 Oct 2020 #1,617
Hahaha, his religious fanaticism couln't stand the PF any longer ...

Yet, Zieodimwit, he never made a religious argument one time. Maybe its not being able to stand PF's inability to make cogent rational arguments that chases the more intelligent posters away. After awhile you realize swine don't know what to do with pearls, so you take your bag of pearls and leave...because that's the wise thing to do.
Ironside 50 | 10,939
26 Oct 2020 #1,618
But you opt for laws which would force people

Well dude that is a nature of any laws, would you go anarchy? Saying that any laws are fascisms is another level of stupid. Can you make an argument or you go from dumb to dumber slogans.

who have different views from you to adopt your point of view.

so you are doing the same, ah but you a money hence you cannot be fascist. dude wise up its boring to refute stupid at this low level.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,282
26 Oct 2020 #1,619
.because that's the wise thing to do.

Are you yet another religion-motivated facist on this forum?
Lenka 3 | 2,577
26 Oct 2020 #1,620
youtu.be/q4kiCrz9KgA

youtu.be/wplAMVl5zc

These police officers possibly risked their job but I love seeing it.

I think they really underestimated how strongly people think about it.


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