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Abortion still under control in Poland


mafketis 24 | 9,387
5 Oct 2016 #1,171
yes I am for jail penalty for doctors who do it in cases that are not allowed by the law

And for the women who get abortions? If it's _really_ murder then you don't let off the person who hires the hitman.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Oct 2016 #1,172
PiS are backing away from the law. Not going to happen.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Oct 2016 #1,173
lack of stigma concerning illegitimacy

That's a salient point. Part of the mamby-pamby, fat and flabby persmissiveness that has replaced normal child rearing has provided impunity for all manner of misbehaviour. The result is a chaotic world of broken homes and confused, unhappy kids.

3 main reasons

There are four: also incest.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
5 Oct 2016 #1,174
The baby died a couple of days after it was born.

Well, all people die after they are born, sometimes it take a couple of days or hours and sometimes for years. Logically we should kill them all, after all they'll die anyway.

Therefore an operation to remove the foetus in an ectopic pregnancy would be banned, and the lives of women would be put at risk.

There is no cause for claiming that one life will be valued more than other expect for the leftie scaremongering and lies. I don't see why would you believe for a moment that such would be a real case?!

why all these demonstrations are taking place.

No, those manifestations were taking place in the name of a choice.

Bogdan Chazan,

I see you have been fed lies. Let me tell you what it all has been about. Later thought if you don't mind.

that sanctity of life doesn't seem to extend to the mother in the same way that it does to the child and it is this I have issue with.

That is your take on the issue and you're simply guessing. There is no way that such a law would be passed. I don't even understand where are you taking it all from.

but doctors know through scans

Doctors and scans are not infallible.

Some of what I write is sinking in then ;)

Chemikiem, I'm not about to falter anyone even if I could gain due to that. You're usually making a good argument and that is a fact.
jon357 66 | 17,078
5 Oct 2016 #1,175
fat and flabby persmissiveness that has replaced normal child rearing has provided impunity for all manner of misbehaviour

Now that post, although far from your nastiest and most bitter (at least you aren't calling women 'sluts' or special children 'morons' this time) is actually pretty vile and shows your anti-choice bile for what it is.

And very sad that you are suggesting it is appropriate to stigmatise so-called illegitimacy...

Worth mentioning that the CzarnyProtest was of course a success and the PIS "bad change" regime have today totally backed down from their idiotic attempts to change the existing law.
Harry
5 Oct 2016 #1,176
the PIS "bad change" regime have today totally backed down

Yep. First they made the vast majority of Poles angry, and now they're infuriating the something-teen percent of Poles who would vote for them and who wanted the law tightened: another PIS poor performance!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
5 Oct 2016 #1,177
fundamentalist regime

The ruling PiS and opposition PO voted to reject the abortion ban in committee. Tomorrow the Sejm will do likewise. 2/3 of all Poles favour keeping the existing abortion law -- a good compromise in force since 1993. Again common sense has prevailed, and PO has finally used its brain rather than hysterical, rabble-rousing emotions.
jon357 66 | 17,078
5 Oct 2016 #1,178
common sense has prevailed

So you actually admit you were wrong, and the proposition you were supporting a few days ago was not "common sense".

As a commentator said in the media today, Women 1 : 0 PIS
Englishman 2 | 278
5 Oct 2016 #1,179
I've noticed that many of those who oppose women's right to abortion are male. They should remember that one of the permitted categories for terminations is rape. Deny women the right to choose for their own reasons and some, in desperation, who can't afford a 'short holiday' in Germany, the Netherlands or the UK, might see no alternative to making allegations.

Really, the only moral solution is to say that a woman's body is her own, and for as long as a foetus is part of her, it's her decision what happens to it.
Chemikiem 7 | 2,509
5 Oct 2016 #1,180
bad change would potentially force some of them to make a choice between breaking their Doctors' Oath or breaking one of Jaro's 'laws'.

I think it would be a minefield for doctors if the change goes through. As this doctor says:-

Prof Romuald Debski, who works at a hospital in Warsaw, told Polish media: "Whoever causes the death of the unborn child is punishable by imprisonment up to three years. If I have a patient with pre-eclampsia, who is 32 weeks pregnant, I will have to let her and her child die.

"I have to, because if I perform a caesarean section and the child dies, I may go to prison for three years, because the child was premature."

Pre-eclampsia is a potentially fatal condition that can develop in the second half of pregnancy and can only be cured by delivering the baby.

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37540139

all people die after they are born,

This baby had no chance of life though, it was cruel to allow that suffering in my opinion, and would have been very distressing for the mother.

There is no cause for claiming that one life will be valued more than other expect for the leftie scaremongering and lies.

I still fail to understand why you can't understand what I am saying. It is not ' leftie scaremongering and lies'.
If a woman has a foetus lodged in the fallopian tube, an operation to remove it would be banned under new legislation. That is clearly putting the life of the child first, at huge risk to the mother. Same with pre-eclampsia, the only cure for which is delivery of the baby. If that foetus is alive, but not developed enough to survive, no doctor will want to perform surgery to remove the baby. If it is not removed, the mother will very likely die.

I see you have been fed lies

I've read numerous articles on this now from many sources including the BBC and The Irish Times. Are you saying all of my sources are lies? What he did was wrong. He put his beliefs above doing his job properly. He didn't have to perform the abortion personally but he was legally bound to refer her to someone who would. He has admitted that he refused to do this. As a consequence of his actions, that woman was forced to have her baby.

Later thought if you don't mind.

No problem.

That is your take on the issue and you're simply guessing

New laws would mean exactly what I am saying, no guesswork involved.

There is no way that such a law would be passed

What I mean is that the consequence of new laws being passed would put the child's life above that of the mother. Any surgery which would require removal of the foetus would be banned. At the expense of the mother's life. Ectopic pregnancy and pre-eclampsia are not exactly rare conditions.

Doctors and scans are not infallible.

No they are not, but they are pretty accurate. Put it this way, I would rather trust the advice given to me by a doctor, than hope to be maybe the 1 in 500,000 who defies the odds.

The ruling PiS and opposition PO voted to reject the abortion ban in committee. Tomorrow the Sejm will do likewise.

Do you have a link to this? I haven't been able to find anything in mainstream sources about it.
Chemikiem 7 | 2,509
6 Oct 2016 #1,181
I haven't been able to find anything

Found this link in the end, seems like it has been rejected which is very good news:-

Parliamentary committee urges MPs to vote proposal down as minister says wave of protests 'taught us humility'

theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/05/polish-government-performs-u-turn-on-total-abortion-ban
terri 1 | 1,665
6 Oct 2016 #1,182
More like they are shi******* in their pants as they are scared of losing the next election. But people will remember who was for and who against.

How refreshing to see that the Premier (Mrs. Szydlo) has indicated that this has 'nothing to do with her' - she is innocent of any and all suggestions for change, whereas everyone knows she is just a puppet of 'you know who.'
Chemikiem 7 | 2,509
6 Oct 2016 #1,183
as they are scared of losing the next election.

Oh I'm sure that had a lot to do with it. Had the decision gone the other way, that would have been the death knell for them as regards re-election.
kondzior 12 | 1,200
6 Oct 2016 #1,184
My favourite part of the yesterday commission session regarding this was how the opposition went into full panic mode when it turned out PiS wants to reject the law proposal. "B-but this decision shouldn't be rushed, we should postpone the vote to reject the law we've campaigned tooth and nail to reject for the last 5 days to some later time like JANUARY!!!!"

What a joke. The current Polish political scene is slowly reaching the hilarity levels of the American president election.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,958
6 Oct 2016 #1,185
'Debating skills' my Aunt Fanny.

"I am right ! You are wrong! "
Iron has the debating skills of a first year undergraduate at one of the lesser universities.
terri 1 | 1,665
6 Oct 2016 #1,186
Premier Szydlo is already 'dead man/woman walking' and it is just a matter of time when all the ills of this Government will land on her door. Someone needs to get blamed and she is the one. Mark my words. She will be asked to relinquish her position in the next 6 months.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,541
6 Oct 2016 #1,187
Poland abortion: Parliament rejects near-total ban BBC

Another storm i a tea cup over and done with, sanity prevails.
kondzior 12 | 1,200
6 Oct 2016 #1,188
And the proposed law is already dead and buried, party's over folks.

Wasn't there just one member of the commission against rejecting it? But of course the opposition is claiming this is a major victory of the protests. Jaro went too lax on pulling the strings and didn't sink the project initially, so now he had to nip it in the bud before any protests could get traction to become anything actually threatening. His biggest concern I think was that the project was being associated with PiS even if it wasn't theirs.
Timmie
6 Oct 2016 #1,190
You think? FT says Poland is becoming stupid country.

Congratulations to the Polish women. Please abort this idiotic, delusional and paranoid socialist government quickly.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Oct 2016 #1,191
FT says

The FT says a lot of things and gets them wrong. It saidu the govt did a u-turn on the abortion ban which is an outright lie. The govt never supported the ban -- that was a proposal by an anti-abortion group that had collected 450,000 signatures, whereas 100,000 are sufficient to submit a measure to the Sejm.
smurf 39 | 1,981
6 Oct 2016 #1,192
I've a question....what happens now?
Am I correct in thinking the parliament will vote on it or is it done and dusted and we can all move on?
terri 1 | 1,665
6 Oct 2016 #1,193
I read somewhere today that the IVF program is also being looked at. So maybe there is some hope for couples.
Sparks11 - | 335
6 Oct 2016 #1,194
By the end of the year there are supposed to be more plans to support life and the family as well as disabled children. It isn't clear what this will entail but presumably not the ultra-strict abortion laws.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Oct 2016 #1,195
parliament will vote

Palriament has voted to reject the abortion ban. A miracle has occurred: PO and Nowoczesna rather than using the occasion for more hystgericla PiS-bashing voted with PiS to reject the proposal. That shows they are capable of cooperating and acting in good faith and not just ranting, mud-slinging and stirring up trouble. Perhaps there still is hope for the loser camp's lunatic fringe.
jon357 66 | 17,078
6 Oct 2016 #1,196
I read somewhere today that the IVF program is also being looked at. So maybe there is some hope for couples.

Common sense has prevailed and PIS has been wrongfooted. Nevertheless it would be naive to assume they don't have further religious-based plans up their sleeves that could hurt women, to be rolled out if their support level increases or they think they can get away with it. It's essential not to be complacent, something that can easily happen.
terri 1 | 1,665
6 Oct 2016 #1,197
People must have the right to speak. If everyone sits on their bottom complaining nothing gets done.
The best way of getting anything done in Poland is for all women to withdraw 'sexual copulation' until such time as ALL Government policies are changed.

This would work.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
6 Oct 2016 #1,198
religious-based plans

That's only natural in Catholic Poland. It would be strange if they rolled out christophobic or anarcho-lefty-libertine plans that are not accepted by the Polish nation and therefore doomed to failure.
Ironside 50 | 10,940
6 Oct 2016 #1,199
and for as long as a foetus is part of her,

The know medical fun fact for you, a foetus is not part of her.

This baby had no chance of life though

Maybe, but in my opinion it doesn't justify abortion, euthanasia or what have you.

I've noticed that many of those who oppose women's right to abortion are male.

Are you a part of some sexist sect?

I've read numerous articles

I'll address that matter in due time if you don't mind. I need to check up the facts first.

What I mean is that the consequence of new laws being passed would put the child's life above that of the mother.

No it won't. I mean for one there is no new laws being passed in the foreseeable future. If similar laws were to be passed none would allowed for such a reversal to be bounding. It would be wrong form the moral and logical point of view.

I guess I say that wouldn't happen. That is quite clear.

Ectopic pregnancy and pre-eclampsia are not exactly rare conditions.

As if people believing in a sanctity of human life wouldn't know anything about medicine, that is somehow presumptions. :)

than hope to be maybe the 1 in 500,000 who defies the odds.

Even 500,000 to 1 doesn't justify abortion.

Women 1 : 0 PIS

Some primitive ape said that. Zeroing everything to the politics and flatting issue like a pancake.

has indicated that this has 'nothing to do with her'

She probably tells the truth. Thing is PiS have in their numbers a few dumb thickhead who know squat about politicks and every time they try to play clever they screw it up badly.

religious-based plans

Religious based nothing, the church didn't support that legislation nor excommunicated those politicians who vote pro-abortion laws. As such hierarchy showed itself to be part of the establishment of soviets, soviet moles and hypocrites and as such should be cleansed.
jon357 66 | 17,078
6 Oct 2016 #1,200
That's only natural in Catholic Poland

It's far from natural to impose theocratic legislation, which as we have seen clearly and without doubt are not wanted here.

doomed to failure

Like the recent PIS proposal...


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