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Abortion still under control in Poland


peterweg 37 | 2,321
3 Oct 2016 #1,141
What will the unintended consequences of this law?

Increase in the use of the fertility pill?
Morning after pill?
Increased use of condoms?
Fall in the birth rate and demographic issues as a result
Fall in support of the catholic church?
Increased emigration.
Happy pensioners
dany_moussalli 13 | 260
3 Oct 2016 #1,142
Morning after pill?

I've read that morning after pills will be banned as well
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
3 Oct 2016 #1,143
consequences of this law?

Hopefully also intimacies limited to wedlock with less overall fornication and adultery.
jon357 66 | 17,040
3 Oct 2016 #1,144
I've read that morning after pills will be banned as well

Some of them would like to do that. It just means more money for German and Czech pharmacies.

One very positive thing is that today's general strike by women and the demonstrations all round Poland were a resounding success.

fornication

No such thing
Marsupial - | 886
3 Oct 2016 #1,145
Another backward joke making poland look stupid in every paper in every country. Its what pis does best.
mafketis 24 | 9,372
4 Oct 2016 #1,146
Hopefully also intimacies limited to wedlock with less overall fornication and adultery

Yes, yes, you hate the idea of anyone actually enjoying sex, we get it.

On a more serious note, the biggest consequence is likely to be the birth rate. Poland has been experiencing a modest increase in live births over the last couple of years, but I would expect that to come to a crashing halt if the most severe restrictions come into force.

The current debate is making it completely clear to women that a large part of society regards them as walking baby factories who might as well die if they can't pop them out correctly. The effects of making pregnancy more dangerous are that fewer women will want to go down that road.

the RCC condemned his dismissal.

I would expect nothing less of them. they clearly want a severely deformed baby to suffer for a few days and its mother to be traumatized so they can rush in to help with their fake concern. Hypocrites.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
4 Oct 2016 #1,147
I've read that morning after pills will be banned as well

Won't stop them becoming more popular will it?

Hopefully also intimacies limited to wedlock with less overall fornication and adultery.

Really, how the hell will it make a difference? Please explain.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Oct 2016 #1,148
ntimacies limited to wedlock

Are legal regulations and pharmaceuticals the only soltuion to every problem? Education should play a significant role. Schools and parents should educate their kids better as to the numerous negative consequences of premature sexual initiation. It won't be easy because the all-pervasive, multi-billion-dollar entertainment industry keeps churning out their sex and violence imagery and misbehaving celebrities keep setting bad examples for young people.
terri 1 | 1,665
4 Oct 2016 #1,149
In Poland NO ONE talks about sex, or sex education - believing that if you don'y talk about it - it never happens.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Oct 2016 #1,150
sex education

In Polish schools there is a subject called Wychowanie do życia w rodzinie (Upbringing for family life) which deals with these issues. It might appear that it is not doing too good a job if teenage pregnancies continue apace. But that is the result of social disintegration. Success would be possible only through teamwork -- parents, school, church and authorities all working together to achieve their goal. Now each group is pulling in a different direction, and the kids are victims of the resultant confusion.
jon357 66 | 17,040
4 Oct 2016 #1,151
In Poland NO ONE talks about sex, or sex education - believing that if you don'y talk about it - it never happens.

True. Though the repellant individual in the clip below opened his mouth about sex, something he evidently knows next to nothing about. For those who don't read Polish, this is a very well known clergyman, not one with a great reputation, saying on TV that rapes rarely cause pregnancy because the woman is "stressed". He's somehow attempting to justify making it a crime for a rape victim to terminate a pregnancy.

natemat.pl/191437,stres-jest-tak-silny-ze-do-zaplodnienia-dochodzi-rzadziej-abp-hoser-mowi-co-wie-o-ciazach-z-gwaltu

Meanwhile, the women's general strike yesterday went very well, thousands turned out in Warsaw and other cities, a sea of black as far as you could see. The response was actually heartwarming.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Oct 2016 #1,152
thousands turned out in Warsaw and other cities

Only thousands? The Washingtpon Post reported that some six million marched acorss Poland. And the "reliable", "unbiased" Western press knows best and cannot be questioned or criticised.
mafketis 24 | 9,372
4 Oct 2016 #1,153
Wychowanie do życia w rodzinie (Upbringing for family life) which deals with these issues

What do they say about sex besides "don't do it till you're married!"?

Do they actually discuss sexual problems a young couple might face like premature ejaculation or inability to climax during intercourse due to excessive masturbation or vaginal dryness?

Do they enlighten young men on female anatomy (like the importance of the clitoris)?
Do they discuss genital hygene?
Do they discuss the importance of foreplay and alternates to intercourse when one of the two is hors de combat?
Do they discuss methods of family planning beyond the rhythm method (which is notoriously unreliable)?

parents, school, church and authorities all working together to achieve their goal.

this could only work if everyone has the same religion and has strong religious beliefs. there are other ways of going about reducing teen pregnancy than trying to turn everyone into an oaza (if that word is still used).
terri 1 | 1,665
4 Oct 2016 #1,154
I remember asking a couple how often they had sex. They had not been using any contraceptives and wanted to have a baby. The woman told me 'I don't even tell my doctor that'.....this tells you everything
jon357 66 | 17,040
4 Oct 2016 #1,155
The perfect introduction to what the church hopes will be a deeply unsatisfying sex life

This is exactly what some of them want, rejoicing in human suffering, 'offering it up' etc.

who

Not 'who', but what. Facts, not religious make-believe.

Sex and contraceptive education may be the most effective way to reduce teen pregnancy.

healthcommunities.com/teen-pregnancy/children/sex-education.shtm

teenagers who received comprehensive sex education were 60% less likely to get pregnant than someone who received abstinence-only education

mic.com/articles/98886/the-states-with-the-highest-teenage-birth-rates-have-one-thing-in-common#.JLDTtgfiJ

There is compelling evidence that where good quality sex and relationships education (SRE) is available it leads to a reduction in teenage pregnancies.

ncb.org.uk/news-opinion/news-highlights/sex-education-forum-statement-teenage-pregnancy-statistics
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Oct 2016 #1,156
likely to see much more impressive

From a purely Realpolitik point of view, the pro-abortion march was a brainstorm at a time when the TK malarkey had become quite stale and déjà vu. The quesiton is: what new cause or angle will the PiS-bashers think up to stay in the limelight and justify their raison d'être. It's a bit like new cars or smartphones -- a new model, colour scheme, feature or gadget is needed because people quickly tire of the existing one.

The abortion march will be pretty hard to match.
jon357 66 | 17,040
4 Oct 2016 #1,157
the pro-abortion march was a brainstorm at a time when the TK malarkey had become quite stale and déjà vu

Don't be silly. It's barely begun. As opposed to the "bad change government" who are plummeting in the polls. With luck (and a bit of hard work on the part of patriotic, politically moderate Poles) it could be a re-run of their last aborted attempt at government.

The criticism over this bungled anti-woman political proposition is a nail in their coffin. Should JK mysteriously become premier, he and Duda can start to plan their retirement.
mafketis 24 | 9,372
4 Oct 2016 #1,158
Don't be silly. It's barely begun.

Don't get too happy, too fast. This was a very big miscalculation on PiS's part who underestimated the probable backlash from catering to extremist weirdos. I'm assuming they'll drop the whole business ASAP, the longer they fiddle around with it the bigger the losses are likely to be and I don't think JK is stupid enough to ignore that.

Many people on both sides are unhappy about the current laws, but trying to change them is a political third rail.
jon357 66 | 17,040
4 Oct 2016 #1,159
This was a very big miscalculation on PiS's part who underestimated the probable backlash from catering to extremist weirdos

Yes, that's spot on. I was thinking the other day that the more egregious the repression, the bigger the backlash that follows - something the JK/Macierewicz/Solidarity generation ought to be very aware of.

Also a very bad idea to harass Doctors; the proposed bad change would potentially force some of them to make a choice between breaking their Doctors' Oath or breaking one of Jaro's 'laws'. Should that happen and should a prediction of the Doctor follow, the backlash within the medical profession would be a sight to see. It isnt that long ago that the Nurses' strike and their encampment on al. Ujazdowskie brought world-wide negative publicity as well as a groundswell of sympathy and support to the Nurses.

Some of their politicians are planning even more absurd propositions, particularly one about who can cohabit with whom. That would almost certainly lead not only to a cessation of EU infrastructure funding but also possible sanctions.
Harry
4 Oct 2016 #1,160
The Washingtpon Post reported that some six million marched acorss Poland.

I can't wait to see you provide a source for that claim.
mafketis 24 | 9,372
4 Oct 2016 #1,161
Some of their politicians are planning even more absurd propositions

I think those are going to quietly go away. The super-religious have never been a mainstay of PiS's support and catering too much to them alienates too many swing support that they'll need if they want to serve out their full term this time.
Englishman 2 | 278
4 Oct 2016 #1,162
I'm in awe of the amazing Polish women who marched, went on strike and wore black to assert their right to terminate unwanted pregnancies. Those who oppose abortion should never be compelled to undergo terminations; they should show the same respect to those who might one day want to exercise that right.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
4 Oct 2016 #1,163
big miscalculation

Indeed, both extreme citizens' prpoposlas (pro-abortion and anti-abortion) shoułd have either been rejected outright or both sent to committee. Even though the govt did not propose the ban, oppositon propagandists manipulated things so it appeared that way. Actually, both PiS ad PO favour the 1993 compromise law, so it will probably prevail.
gumishu 11 | 5,604
4 Oct 2016 #1,164
they should show the same respect to those who might one day want to exercise that right.

are we supposed to respect the right to murder people - from what I have heard we put murderers in jails
mafketis 24 | 9,372
4 Oct 2016 #1,165
you don't seriously think that abortion is murder (unless you want women who get abortions thrown in prison for murder).

if you do, then at least you're consistent (if a terrible human being).
gumishu 11 | 5,604
4 Oct 2016 #1,166
abortion is murder

if we assume that a 8-weeks old foetus is human then abortion is murder all along
mafketis 24 | 9,372
4 Oct 2016 #1,167
Then you want no difference in prison sentences for hitmen and those who hire them and doctors and women who pay them to have abortions. Is that correct?

Why aren't more anti-abortion people proclaiming that they want to put doctors connected with abortion and women who get abortions in prison?

A surefire vote getter!
gumishu 11 | 5,604
4 Oct 2016 #1,168
abortion is illegal in most cases in Poland and doctors who perform abortions can face jail time if caught - there was widespread hypocrisy in Poland when it comes to abortion though and underground clinics were tolerated - I don't know about the current situation

and yes I am for jail penalty for doctors who do it in cases that are not allowed by the law

Not 'who', but what. Facts, not religious make-believe.

John I haven't found the exact figures for Poland - but according to Daiy Mail the percentage of teenage mothers in the UK where there is a lot of sexual education is higher than in Poland where there is almost nil sexual education - looks like your simple mechanism doesn't work
jon357 66 | 17,040
4 Oct 2016 #1,169
teenage mothers in the UK

The number actually fell hugely after the introduction of a much more detailed sex education programme.

Poland

Remember that a comparison only really works if it's like for like. In Poland where almost 40% of the Population are engaged to some degree in agriculture and in the U.K. where the figure is around 1% we would need, in order to discuss teenage pregnancies, different sets of figures for close rural communities and larger urban groups. We'd also have to factor in the much stronger support structures especially financial, educational and housing in the U.K. Plus the lack of stigma concerning illegitimacy in the U.K. contrasted with that in Poland.

looks like your simple mechanism doesn't work

Looks like your simple attempt at a reply doesn't work...
Kennyboy 1 | 44
4 Oct 2016 #1,170
Right, let me see if I understand. Currently in Poland there are 3 main reasons that pregnancies can be terminated, danger to the mothers health, pregnancy due to rape and limited life expectancy of the child.

So a bunch of politicians (mostly male) with strong support of the catholic church (male) are going to decide what's best for the women of Poland. I don't advocate abortion simply being used as a method of birth control but I'd like to know the following if a woman had to go full term with her pregnancy, let's say after a rape.

Let's imagine she's a 20 year old single woman. What level of support would she get, financially, psychologically, education, job prospects, child care etc..... and of course the biggest burden she would carry would be the stigma of being an ''un married mother'' I'm just curious to know.

Maybe the next thing would be that any woman that had a miscarriage would be investigated to check that it was genuine.

Someone mentioned on here about the sanctity of life, I find it strange when you consider that there are close to 60 countries that still have the death penalty and turn any news channel on to really see what we humans are capable of, bombings, shootings, etc.. I think taking away the right of all women to do what they want with there own bodies is the least of our problems and completely wrong in my opinion.

I just hope that President Duda's daughter doesn't have an ''accidental'' pregnancy, he could always seek guidance from some catholic fanatical priest and I guess she could go on an ''overseas'' holiday.


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