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Abortion still under control in Poland


p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #721
You dove in on my conversation with Orpheus and seemed to have no problem with it.It wasn't in invalid question and you know it.You wouldn't answer it because had you,then you know how it would have shaped future replies from me.I think that abortion under the circumstances I have laid out is very wrong,but I have to say short of intentional murder;for complex reasons..
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
24 Nov 2012 #722
I think that abortion under the circumstances I have laid out is very wrong,but I have to say short of intentional murder.

How short of intentional murder? Seriously.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
24 Nov 2012 #723
Foreigner4,It equates to murder imo,but I wouldn't classify a woman who has had an abortion as a murderer because of societal conditioning and you have to be aware to be culpable.That is the best way that I can answer that honestly.I don't judge nor chastise,because I'm not in a woman's shoes.I still feel that it is wrong.Am I disgusted by women who have had abortions?No.Would I be angry if a woman I had impregnated had an abortion with out my consent?Absolutely,because I would raise the child and would not want to be deprived of that chance.If they ever come to the conclusion as to whether or not the fetus is A human being;or in the case of late stage,other than for a mitigating circumstance,then I say that will be intentional murder.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
24 Nov 2012 #724
So you feel somewhat similar to the idea as I do. I had written the "same" but that was just wrong (like wrong enough to correct it kind of wrong).

And your definition of abortion may actually not be how others define it.
Okay. Good, you're doing well.
Now the conditions which you laid out are also interesting. You specified abortions selected out of inconvenience are the ones you oppose, is that correct?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
24 Nov 2012 #725
When I say out of inconvenience I mean in the way that I have stated numerous times in this thread.Because I may not be militant about it,doesn't mean that I can't think that it is wrong.If a woman were to ask me do I think that abortion is wrong,I would say yes,but she would have to live with whatever decision she makes.Take away mitigating circumstances and what do you have left?
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
24 Nov 2012 #726
If a woman were to ask me do I think that abortion is wrong,I would say yes,but she would have to live with whatever decision she makes.

Have you ever stopped someone from doing something you thought of as "wrong?"

When I say out of inconvenience I mean in the way that I have stated numerous times in this thread.

Oh come on now, just for old times' sake what exactly do mean by inconvenience. Because while you have laid out a scenario, I don't recall you describing how a woman would feel in that situation. Could you do that?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
24 Nov 2012 #727
How could I lay that out?I have known several woman who have strongly regretted having had abortions.If you're trying to get me to say that the decision should be easy for them,of course I wouln't say that,but I've answered enough of your questions,how about answering some of mine?Fair enough?
4 eigner 2 | 831
24 Nov 2012 #728
Let's put it this way, what's legally right, is not always morally right. Again, abortion out of emergency YES, abortion out of convenience NO, Cary the consequences of your actions people. Act like adults. If you're old enough to f/ck, you're old enough to raise a child too, end of story. If you're not ready to raise children, don't f'ck or use contraception, simple as that.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
24 Nov 2012 #729
Foreigner4,As a poster and a mod,I like the way you try to insinuate that I had a problem with Gabi's answer;I never did.I had a problem with the fact that you said she answered the question that you wouldn't.That's fine though,because it establishes that you don't think that it's wrong to think that it's wrong,in the case of abortion.I say as a mod and a poster,drop your ego and answer me this.What is the similarity in our view?What is your complete take?or will you not lay it out as I have?
wibblywobbly - | 12
24 Nov 2012 #730
If you're not ready to raise children, don't f'ck or use contraception, simple as that.

or pull it out at the moment of ejaculation, its not really that simple though is it. Dude i can safely say that when you're looking to shoot the load - the last thing any guy wants to do is withdraw the penis. Its an urge, a virtually uncontrollable urge. Were fighting with sexually inherent instincts here, instincts naturally inbred and inherited in order to replicate human existence from birth.

Young guys n gals at parties and stuff start getting it on without really realising the implications of their actions do fcuk. They fcuk and they experiment. Its the same ball park as a soldier joining the army and then going off to fight in a war, with the very REAL possibility of losing his life. Nobody thinks it will happen to him. This young guy didnt think he may actually get his head shot off in a war.

The moral high ground is an easy stance to take, but it doesnt reflect reality. Especially a reality which is controlled by impulse and inherent sexual urges. In these cases where the known risks result in a pregnancy - decisions need to be made.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
24 Nov 2012 #731
wibblywobbly,I agree that it is tough,but you have to think about it before you start in the first place.You full well know that a resulting pregnancy is a distinct possibility,whether you think it won't happen to you or not.
wibblywobbly - | 12
24 Nov 2012 #732
maybe in the back of your mind somewhere as your undoing this girls bra and looking at real tits for maybe the first time. Nobody thinks it will happen to them, till it happens - of course.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
24 Nov 2012 #733
wibblywobbly,but it's not like you don't have a choice in getting that far.Otherwise people wouldn't be able to wait until they wanted kids.You can use protection.
4 eigner 2 | 831
24 Nov 2012 #734
or pull it out at the moment of ejaculation, its not really that simple though is it

it's not what I meant by saying "or use contraception".
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
24 Nov 2012 #735
What is your complete take?

Okay.
I don't know.
wibblywobbly - | 12
24 Nov 2012 #736
Otherwise people wouldn't be able to wait until they wanted kids.You can use protection.

yes obvioulsy, but you are an older man with wise years under your belt. Many abortions are the results of kids getting kids pregnant. Although youre in a position to take the moral high ground, you need to think back to when it may have been a reality for you. Lets talk about kids killing themselves on high powered motor cycles! i stared death in the face numerous times on my bike, im older now and wouldn't make the same mistakes again.

it's not what I meant by saying "or use contraception".

I'm aware of that genius. I was expanding on the reality of a situation which may result in a spontaneous pregnancy.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
24 Nov 2012 #737
Foreigner4,I've been straight up with you on this;can't you afford me the same courtesy?For old times sake lol:).If you don't want to that's cool,I do understand where you are coming from and believe it or not I can respect that,even if I don't completely agree.This is why I say that I don't judge.It is a very similar take that you and I have in that particular respect.I can express that I feel that is wrong,and to say that I'm as morally opposed to it as I would be in how to fix something is unfair since you don't know me,but I can respect that too,because you don't know me.I have thoroughly enjoyed debating you;believe it or not.
TommyG 1 | 361
25 Nov 2012 #738
P3Undone, can I quickly have a brief debate with you on this issue of abortion?
I'm neither pro-life nor pro-choice, although I can see both sides of the arguement.
Women shouldn't use abortion because they can't be bothered with birth control, or their bfs can't be bothered to use condoms. I'll agree with that.

But also, sometimes there are situations when a woman really feels that an abortion is the best solution (I know about fostering & don't want to discuss that option).

But, can I discuss this particular point.
Tonight, I can meet with someone, wear a condom and prevent a potential life. I'm a murderer!
I don't wear a condom and someone gets pregnant. They have an abortion - now they're the murderer!
This is crudely my take on abortion. Any comments?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
25 Nov 2012 #739
TommyG,I'll tell you what as long as your not going to try and belittle me;believe me I'm quite apt at doing this as well,but I don't even if it is done to me.The other request I have is that you read some of my prior posts because I really don't want to explain it again.What do you say?
TommyG 1 | 361
25 Nov 2012 #740
I promise that I won't belittle you. But, I don't have time to read 28 pages of posts. Do you care to comment on my last comments? (You don't have to)
p3undone 8 | 1,135
25 Nov 2012 #741
TommyG, LOL fair enough,read some of my replies to Foreigner4 on the previous page.I lay it out succinctly.Can you do that at least?
TommyG 1 | 361
25 Nov 2012 #742
I've done that. You seem to be asking Foreigner4 to debate this topic with you, which he seems to be avoiding.
As for my request to you, do you agree that the term 'murderer' can apply to either party (it takes two to tango) depending on the stage of contraception/abortion...

When does life begin? I dunno. But, surely anyone using contraception is just as guilty as someone who doesn't and this results in an abortion..?

Your turn... :D
p3undone 8 | 1,135
25 Nov 2012 #743
Ok,in fairness to foreigner4 him and I have debated this silly.I know where he is coming from and although I don't completely agree with him we do have some similarities in our outlook..I wanted you to read where I explained my take on it.

I don't agree that using contraception can be considered murder.Do you consider masturbation murder?
TommyG 1 | 361
25 Nov 2012 #744
No, I don't consider masturbation murder. Neither do I consider contraception to be murder. But neither do I consider an abortion to be murder.

It's the same thing just at different stages of fertilisation/pregnancy.
Basically, either way you are preventing life. Everything else is just semantics and nothing to do with morals IMO.
Would you agree?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
25 Nov 2012 #745
Preventing a life is not the same as taking a life.It becomes semantics to suggest that imo.
TommyG 1 | 361
25 Nov 2012 #746
But it's the same effect just at a later stage down the road. My sperm are alive, but unless they fertilise an egg, they're gunna die.

This is why I say that these decisions should be between the mother and the doctors. We can debate this ad infinitum but it won't change anything.

Rather than make people feel bad for making such a difficult decision, and just condemn the decision, I believe we should try to understand why they have made that decision.

It's certainly not the easy option a lot of people think, and women certainly don't take it lightly.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
25 Nov 2012 #747
You couldn't have read my reply that laid out my take on it.You could say that if a man never ends up having sex that he is a potential murderer by that logic,his sperm will die when he dies.Bacteria is life,where do you draw the line.When you eat it's at the expense of life.
TommyG 1 | 361
25 Nov 2012 #748
You could say that if a man never ends up having sex that he is a potential murderer by that logic,his sperm will die when he dies.

I quite agree with you. Don't forget you're creating sperm daily and that sperm will die. They don't have a long life span.

So yes, where do you draw the line?
For me, maybe somewhere in the first 13weeks... and you?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
25 Nov 2012 #749
I am not a scientist,so I can't tell you when it becomes a functioning human so too speak.Other than mitigating circumstances;I think it is wrong.You have already stated that you don't believe that it should be used as birth control.So the way I see it,we are pretty much on the same page
TommyG 1 | 361
25 Nov 2012 #750
More or less. But I would never ban it as an option.
However, I have to shoot off now. Have something to do. TBC....


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