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Abortion still under control in Poland


natasia 3 | 368
23 Nov 2012 #691
yeah, but there is a difference between, e.g., a baby dying because it catches a disease, or someone cutting up a perfectly healthy baby with scissors because they can't be doing with him/her at the moment, because, e.g., they haven't yet bought a flat in London and they're still only renting (the reason one work-mate of mine gave for needing an abortion) ... isn't there? Because that is the reality of what we are talking about here.

Forget all this nonsense about prostitutes and drug addicts having abortions because they love their unborn children so much they wouldn't want to bring them into this terrible world. Fxxk that. The abortions those of us who abhor them abhor are those, I think, where women are emotionally and economically stable, and just happen to fall pregnant through, e.g., drinking one glass too many of Chardonnay at the Cafe Rouge on the way home from work, falling into bed with a colleague, and oops, preggo. Or even worse - also in a stable relationship, but although they've been together for three years, she hasn't quite found the GP job she was looking for yet (waiting a few months for a placement in a better area), and he still has the last year of his law conversion course to do, so it doesn't really suit them yet ... next year would probably be better. And anyhow, their flat only has two bedrooms and a box room, and they use the box room as an office and need a spare bedroom for friends to stay, so where would the baby sleep?

It is this kind of decision (and the equivalent in Poland) that seems so deeply flawed and unacceptable.
4 eigner 2 | 831
23 Nov 2012 #692
No one is talking about her child except you

not true. You're blind if you can't see that there are quite a few posters here who oppose abortion. Besides, I usually say "a child to be" but calling it a child is not a real mistake either as it will be most likely be a child if it won't be aborted.

I would not be arguing for her to do or not to do anything except make the decision she feels is best.

exactly F4, since you can't predict the future, you can't say that a child won't have a good life and I believe, it deserves a chance. Even a mother can't predict the future of her child.

It's a total nonsense what you said, F4. What if someone will decide that the best for you is to end your life and kill you, huh?

Incorrect. Miscarriages are real facts of life

but the chance to be born alive is much higher. C'mon, even you know it, F4.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
23 Nov 2012 #693
not true.

I meant on this page

You're blind if you can't see that there are quite a few posters here who oppose abortion.

That's not what I was referring to.

Besides, I usually say "a child to be" but calling it a child is not a real mistake either as it will be most likely be a child if it won't be aborted.

Accuracy is important here and blurring terms allows for confusion. I'm not debating you on probability related to pregnancies resulting in successful deliveries.

since you can't predict the future, you can't say that a child won't have a good life and I believe, it deserves a chance.

That's not what I'm saying. I believe the statements below communicate that quite clearly:

I stated a would be mother has a better perspective on her future and what life may or may not hold for her fetus than you do...

It's a total nonsense what you said, F4.

Your understanding of it seems to have been just that.

but the chance to be born alive is much higher. C'mon, even you know it, F4.

Of course I know that, but your statement suggested a certainty whereas reality shows that it is a probability. Even you should know the difference.

Seriously dude, do we have to go back to this style of discussion?

yeah, but there is a difference between, e.g., a baby dying because it catches a disease, or someone cutting up ... isn't there?

No. Dead is dead and someone's fcuk up that kills a baby kills it just as effectively as the manner you described.

drug addicts having abortions because they love their unborn children so much they wouldn't want to bring them into this terrible world

Oh, that's nonsense, is it? Are you saying those people and their lives don't deserve consideration in this discussion?

where women are emotionally and economically stable, and just happen to fall pregnant through, e.g., drinking one glass too many

That reads like like something out of prime time television....but I digress. If I understand you as you intended, you're saying you and many of your "camp" (I hate to use such a militant word) abhor the decision to abort that is made due to the inconvenience of it all, is that correct?
4 eigner 2 | 831
23 Nov 2012 #694
I'm not debating you on probability related to pregnancies resulting in successful deliveries.

but this is what this whole thing is about. A child will be most likely born alive if it won't be aborted and so, aborting a child is like killing it. She has no right to kill it just because she "knows" (as you say) what's better for it.

Seriously dude, do we have to go back to this style of discussion?

not really F4. You said earlier, you're against abortion and then you said, you're pro choice, so make up your mind, man. You can't have both.

It looks like you're paying way too much attention to your style and not enough attention to what you're saying.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #695
Foreigner4,there is something that you said to natasia earlier on this thread that I missed,Where on this thread have I ever once hypothesized about who should live or die during delivery.I have mentioned more than once mitigating circumstances.That's a no brainer;if the mother's life would be in danger then abort,no matter what the circumstances that brought about the pregnancy.Why would you even say that?
Wroclaw Boy
23 Nov 2012 #696
One thing these types of online conversations never and cant take into consideration is how one dude or women looks. Some dudes are better looking than others and get to screw around a lot more. Its easy for these physically unattractive men to take the moral high ground based on the fact they'll never the get the opportunity to even get a girl pregnant.

On a similar level are dudes opposed to fighting, some fight better than others and many are just simply cowards. The cowards oppose fighters but boy would they love to be one, to say just once in their life that they stood up and beat somebody up.

Spreading the seed and fighting - its a strongest survive mentality, not our fault. Our ancestors had it.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
23 Nov 2012 #697
Where on this thread have I ever once hypothesized about who should live or die during delivery.

I believe it was you and another member discussing who you'd choose to save in a delivery gone bad situation, the mother or the baby. Either way, the relevance that has seems to be tenuous to the current discussion.

Why would you even say that?

I don't think I said what you're claiming but if it wasn't you discussing that then my bad.

You said earlier, you're against abortion and then you said, you're pro choice, so make up your mind, man. You can't have both.

I made it perfectly clear that I don't support it. I have made it perfectly clear that I think the choice is best left to the would-be mother first and foremost.

As I stated earlier, if one believes abortion is murder and does nothing to prevent it then there is a severe discord between what one says their beliefs are and that of their actions. In that sense, such an individual stands exactly shoulder to shoulder with me on the side of the issue I am on and that is one of non-involvement.

One thing these types of online conversations never and cant take into consideration is how one dude or women looks.

I was really hoping somebody would steer the conversation in that direction. When I think back to how many ditch-pigs (really ugly broads) some of my pals and close friends nailed....there's no way they'd have ever settled down with those women if they'd knocked them up- 0% chance.

And I would have been the last person to advise them to do anything different than what they would have done and that would have been to pay for an abortion.

While looks were never a problem, there were some girls I am relieved I did not knock up for various reasons....christ my first time at 14 or 15 (I honestly don't remember) with a 13/14 year old girl...f'n hell.... we'd have made such a mess of our lives if.........
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #698
Foreigner4,why don't you support abortion?
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
23 Nov 2012 #699
Because it's not for me to say what a woman should or shouldn't do with her pregnancy. It's not for me to tell her how she should view the form of life inside her. It's not for me to tell her how she should weigh that conclusion as to what she thinks is best for the future.

I think I've been pretty consistent about this.
Oh look I've been straightforward in answering a question, again.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #700
Foreigner4,lol that was straightforward enough I agree.Do you think that abortion is right or wrong?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #702
Foreigner4,So do you think that it is wrong to think that it is wrong?
4 eigner 2 | 831
23 Nov 2012 #703
I have made it perfectly clear that I think the choice is best left to the would-be mother first and foremost.

if it was all about her, I'd probably agree with you but we're talking about her deciding about the life of her child to be.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
23 Nov 2012 #704
Foreigner4,So do you think that it is wrong to think that it is wrong?

I do not think that it is wrong to think it is wrong to do to yourself or to your unborn child.

if it was all about her, I'd probably agree with you but we're talking about her deciding about the life of her child to be.

again, that's where I feel I and others are in no position to weigh in on (save the father to be).
If a pregnant woman chooses to view her pregnancy and the form of life inside her differently than you or I then I don't consider it my right to tell her how to think. I could ask her some objective questions to help her get to an answer but it'd be unethical to guide her one way or the other.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #705
Foreigner4,I wasn't asking from the standpoint of the mother.Do you think it is wrong for anyone to think that it is wrong?Straight forward yes or no.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
23 Nov 2012 #706
Your question is flawed. It would force me to adopt a view point I do not hold if I answered either way. You have been denied.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #707
Foreigner4 LOL bingo;thank you.
4 eigner 2 | 831
23 Nov 2012 #708
If a pregnant woman chooses to view her pregnancy and the form of life inside her differently than you

but it's not about how she (or anyone else for that matter) feels about it, it's about the right to be born and to live of an unborn child. . No, I'm not willing to agree that anyone (including her) has the right to decide, who's to live and who's to die.

It would force me to adopt a view point I do not hold if I answered either way.

the problem is that until now, you don't hold any point, sorry. You're against abortion and at the same time, you're pro choice. Something's not adding up here.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
23 Nov 2012 #709
I understand it completely. It's perfectly o.k to view things both as a principle and in reality. Reality is always more complicated. So the two views aren't mutually opposing.

In principle Foreigner4 doesn't like the idea of abortion, however in reality he is aware of the thousands of different complications that can arise with outsiders forcing rather life changing decisions on others , and so doesn't do much about it.

People such as 4reigner in principle are against "the murder of unborn children" (paraphrasing him), but in reality don't actually do much about it.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #711
GabiDaHun,such as do what?I myself think it is wrong for abortion under the circumstances I've continually outlined on this thread.I would respect whatever the law decides,but I still think that it is wrong.If someone were to ask me if I thought it was wrong,then I would say the same thing and explain why no more no less.There is nothing wrong with that.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
23 Nov 2012 #713
P3undone. I'm in my mobile so I'll respond with a list of what you could do later.

Needless to say, if I genuinely thought that the state were sanctioning murder, I would be doing a dam sight more about it than posting anonymously on an internet forum.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #714
Foreigner4,I think it is wrong;no more no less.GabiDaHun,no matter what I would do about it,I can still say that I think it is wrong.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
23 Nov 2012 #715
Foreigner4,I think it is wrong no more no less.

Then what are you doing to prevent it? You may think it wrong not to recycle but not chastise others for not following suit. You may think it's wrong to steal but not go out and apprehend thieves yourself. You may think it wrong to steal your car and there, you might actually step up and try to prevent it from happening. But if you really think what's going on is murder then how the hell do you tell yourself it's okay to do nothing about it. That's the part I can't figure out.
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #716
Foreigner4,First of all I'm not chastising anyone,people will do what they will.I don't judge people,though I may judge their actions.Why do people get angry about it if they don't feel there is anything wrong with it.What do I do about it,I make sure that I don't get a woman pregnant,if I did I am quite willing to raise the child.I am not going to pro choice rallies.Or suggesting that it rests squarely on the mother,so in this I'm clearly showing that I don't support it under the circumstances I have laid out.You say that your not one way or the other yet,here you are passionately arguing for one side.If you were neutral as you claim;you would bring up points from both sides or neither..
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
23 Nov 2012 #717
Gabbi explained it. That's why we're now at this stage of the discussion: How wrong do you think it is? Where does abortion rank on your scale of wrongness?
p3undone 8 | 1,135
23 Nov 2012 #718
Nice try,no cigar,I asked you that question and not her,and in it she didn't say that it was wrong to think that it is wrong.You wanted to answer that question and I know what it would have been.You called it flawed from a debating standpoint.Let's drop the egos and honestly answer the question.You answer that and I will answer yours.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
23 Nov 2012 #719
I explained why your question is invalid.
I don't have to explain anything after that as Gabbi has already done so, quite eloquently I may add, as she has been in this conversation as much as anyone else. You did not have problems diving in when I was in discussion with another member therefor you should have no qualms about her involvement.

You can pretend to assume what you want about what I was thinking but that's your ego talking. Maintain your position and behave like a moderator. Let it go man.

We're discussing something here so let us carry on with where the conversation has led us and tell us your views on how wrong you think it is? Where does it fit on your scale of wrongness.
GabiDaHun 2 | 152
23 Nov 2012 #720
Tbh I'm not sure what question Foreigner4 is supposed to be evading. How wrong is it is, IMO, a very good question.


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