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Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps'


Braveheart16 14 | 100    
31 Jan 2018  #91
WieliPolak.....

What you say is a fair point and I accept what you say....I just wish that the government will soon focus more on the needs of the voters rather than on issues which will not help the economy..
OP WielkiPolak 55 | 1,030    
31 Jan 2018  #92
If think they are trying to focus on this too, hence the recent shake-up in personnel. Beata Szydlo it seems was there for the social help, families etc. Now Morawiecki is going to try and help pick up the economy and business in Poland.

However defending Poland's good name is something that mustn't be overlooked and I'm glad PiS and taking steps in that direction. Nations must defend their good name in the face of lies, and this is what this law is set to do.
gumishu 11 | 4,851    
31 Jan 2018  #93
.but at the moment it all seems like papering over the cracks and they are not really concerned with the lives of people

i'm not sure you noticed the 500+ programme - it is the most generous and most effective social programme in the last 25 years - it already reduced child poverty drastically -
OP WielkiPolak 55 | 1,030    
31 Jan 2018  #94
Indeed the 500+ is a very helpful program.

By the way, the Polish senate is supposed to be voting on this 'Polish death camps' law tonight, or at least that's what was announced. It's after midnight there now though, so I don't know how long they are going to stay there.

Then if it goes through, the president just needs to sign.
delphiandomine 86 | 16,402    
31 Jan 2018  #95
By the way, the Polish senate is supposed to be voting on this 'Polish death camps' law tonight,

They're supposed to vote tonight, but they're on a break till 1.30 apparently. Probably they'll just get Duda to veto it quickly to calm things down, though.

washingtonpost.com/world/europe/polish-senate-debates-holocaust-bill-that-has-angered-israel/2018/01/31/c453c73a-06c8-11e8-aa61-f3391373867e_story.html

The veto is almost certain, I'd say. It's the easiest way to save face now - the Americans are involved, and the anger from Israel will only get worse if the law isn't vetoed.

The strange thing that I can't understand - the law was supposed to be on ice while a joint Polish-Israeli commission would sort things out.
OP WielkiPolak 55 | 1,030    
1 Feb 2018  #96
The veto is almost certain, I'd say. It's the easiest way to save face now

Oh really? I don't think he will veto it. If he does, it will cause much uproar on the Polish right. Well, it's going to cause uproar with somebody one way or another.
delphiandomine 86 | 16,402    
1 Feb 2018  #97
Do you think it would be a deal-breaker for PiS supporters, though? The nationalists will be outraged (when are they not? :P), but do you think that ordinary PiS supporters would be that worried about a veto in the face of Israeli/American pressure?

I actually can't tell which is the better option at this point. Israel is mad, the Americans are now pissed off, and the massive influence that Israel has over the Republicans shouldn't be understated.

BTW, another article here: kansascity.com/opinion/readers-opinion/guest-commentary/article197734484.html

At this point, it really looks like PiS have accidentally opened a conversation that they didn't want to start.
OP WielkiPolak 55 | 1,030    
1 Feb 2018  #98
I think it would annoy the non far-right standard PiS base a lot, yes. They vote for PiS because it's supposed to be a patriotic party who says Poland can stand on its own two feet.

If this law gets thrown out because Israel and the USA are unhappy with it, they'll be pissed.

PiS supporters don't mind a friendship with the USA and even Israel - they'll take that over any sort of relationship with Germany or Russia right now, but at the same time, they also don't like the idea of Poland being USA/Israel's *****.

If this gets a veto from the president because the Israeli government or American senators don't like it, many people in Poland won't be happy, and the suspicious voices saying that PiS is already just doing what the Americans and Jews tell them to do, voices that PiS supporters have so far tried to ignore for the most part, will seem more plausible.
Wulkan - | 3,280    
1 Feb 2018  #99
but do you think that ordinary PiS supporters would be that worried

Yes, average Radio Maryja listener would be very happy that someone can say that he/she collaborated with the Nazis during the war, what kind of world you live in?
johnny reb 15 | 3,075    
1 Feb 2018  #100
Bill passes 57-23. straitstimes.com/world/europe/polish-senate-passes-holocaust-bill-slammed-by-israel
Atch 15 | 2,440    
1 Feb 2018  #101
actual patriotic party and patriotic president in charge

I actually agree that 'Polish death camps' is an inappropriate and misleading phrase. It would be better to refer to them as 'Nazi death camps located on the occupied territory of Poland' or something similar. But I'm not sure that making the phrase illegal is the best way to deal with it. However, I completely disagree with making it illegal to refer to alleged Polish complicity in the Holocaust because certainly, some Polish people, even if it was only a small minority, were complicit in the deaths of Jew. Even if none had been, history needs to be a topic for free and open discussion in a free and open society. Rather than claiming it didn't happen, one looks at why it happened.

Indeed the 500+ is a very helpful program.

It isn't. The logic behind it has nothing to do with addressing long term issues of poverty. It's about trying to fix the problem of an aging population with the looming possibility of not enough money in the state coffers to cover pensions. Encourage people to 'breed like rabbits' by throwing money at them and Bob's your uncle. No help at all in either combatting poverty or fixing the population problem. It's unsustainable in the long term and is likely to disappear if PIS wins the next election. They won't need it anymore as a vote- catcher.

Btw Mods, when I tried to use italics just now, I was told not to quote excessively - there's a bug in your software.
shockedInpoland    
1 Feb 2018  #102
Poland and Israel's laws and for their own nations, so I don't see how an Israeli law can say a Polish law, meant for its own land, is illegal,.

Polish law can be applied all across the EU,whereas nobody gives a damn what Israel do.

Do you think it would be a deal-breaker for PiS supporters, though? ?

I think its a deal breaker for more that just PiS supporters.. Very evidently Israel has a policy of equating occupied Poland with Nazi Germany and now wants h

publicity for the Holocaust. Sweeping this under the carpet is not acceptable, lets fight it in court - preferably in Germany or the UN
cms 9 | 1,290    
1 Feb 2018  #103
Not sure what is to be gained by this unenforceable law - seems to me that PS were deliberately trying to provoke a culture war but didn't think the US would get involved.

But my main issue is that given it has become so sensitive why is it discussed in the middle of the night ? People rarely do their most thoughtful and error free work at 1.30
shockedInpoland    
1 Feb 2018  #104
I completely disagree with making it illegal to refer to alleged Polish complicity in the Holocaust because certainly

The law is against blaming the Polish State i.e, government for the Holocaust or for the camps. Its a distortion by certain media - and the Israeli government - to claim that individual Poles cannot be accused of involvement.

Its now obvious that Israeli's have been doing exactly that, blaming the occupied country for crimes committed by the occupier - in direct violation of UN law as the occupying state is responsible for the actions it takes, Israel is taking part in a exercise in Holocaust denial.

Not sure what is to be gained by this unenforceable law

Don't think its any more unenforceable than any other type of Holocaust denial, there have been successful prosecutions before, I welcome America's input , although obviously the EU is vastly more important as an unbiased observer.
Atch 15 | 2,440    
1 Feb 2018  #105
to claim that individual Poles cannot be accused of involvement.

The exact wording of the law is

"whoever accuses, publicly and against the facts, the Polish nation, or the Polish state, of being responsible or complicit in the Nazi crimes" so that would cover individuals.

The Polish nation refers to the people of Poland. The Oxford dictionary defines 'nation' as follows:

'A large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory.'

So the law does make it illegal to allege that individual Poles were complicit in the murder or mistreatment of Jews.

The wording of the law exempts artists and scientific researchers from prosecution. This means that a film maker for example can depict a Polish person engaging in anti-Jewish activities and an academic paper can investigate the topic but a journalist could be prosecuted, and what about an author?? Do they count as an 'artist', I would say not. And of course any individual on a forum such as this could be prosecuted. It is without doubt, an infringement of the civil liberties of Polish people.
mafketis 16 | 5,899    
1 Feb 2018  #106
he exact wording of the law is

in Polish, English translations are interesting but beside the point.

My understanding of the wording used in the media is that it's about accusations that the Polish state (which did not exist in any meaningful way from 1939-44) conspired with nazis or that Polish people collectively supported and/or worked with nazis.

I don't see how it would prevent anyone from saying "Jan Kowalski worked for the nazis" or "the village of Polskawieś carried out a pogrom after the war"

Some random Israeli "my grandmother was killed in a Polish death camp" is very inaccurate but honestly laws apply to citizens (whereever they are) or those in Poland (wherever they're from) and not non-citizens outside the country.

In general Polish laws are notorious for being poorly written (those affected are still trying to decipher the update to the law on 'prawo autorskie' and taxes).

Those who write Polish laws really need a few courses in plain language (though that's a non-starter culturally).
gregy741 3 | 1,110    
1 Feb 2018  #107
let be clear..this diplomatic crisis its not about this proceeded bill.or about content of it.
Israelis were taking active part in writing this bill,and were aware of its content for 1,5 years. they were notified several times,and took part in reshaping its content.they had no objections

even our most senior politicians or most Jewish leaders in Poland are baffled and surprised about Israel response.
few days ago,Israeli ambassador suggested,it has to do with Israeli election.some say,its about proposed in Poland restitution bill.(about money)
Atch 15 | 2,440    
1 Feb 2018  #108
I don't see how it would prevent anyone from saying "Jan Kowalski worked for the nazis" or "the village of Polskawieś carried out a pogrom after the war"

Care to bring a test case? I don't think I'd want to risk it!

There is something inherently sinister about laws that single out specifics in what one can or cannot say. There are shades of the old 'denouncement' vibe there. If I hear my neighbour or co-worker saying that Jan Kowalski worked for the Nazis, I'd be quite within my rights to report it to the police..........I just find the principle underlying that kind of legislation somewhat worrying.
ShockedInPoland    
1 Feb 2018  #109
An individual or group of individuals is not a Nation or State.
cms 9 | 1,290    
1 Feb 2018  #110
It's not a state but it might be a nation. Didn't the law define nation ?

Is it worth upsetting the US for this nonsense ? Total waste of everyone's time and now cash while they close streets etc.
Atch 15 | 2,440    
1 Feb 2018  #111
That's a very good point CMS, about the legal definition of the nation, but one not likely to be answered accurately here.
Braveheart16 14 | 100    
1 Feb 2018  #112
gumishu....i'm not sure you noticed the 500+ programme - it is the most generous and most effective social programme in the last 25 years - it already reduced child poverty drastically

Yes I would think it would be a widely accepted programme by many families but I read a moment ago from someone else on this page....(cannot find the post now and seems to have disappeared from this site) and agree that this programme is unsustainable and unlikely to fully reduce child poverty in the long run....and how are the PIS to continue with this level of payments which will probably be scrapped if and when they are re-elected at the next general election.
Atch 15 | 2,440    
1 Feb 2018  #113
That was me :)) Post #101 on this thread.
mafketis 16 | 5,899    
1 Feb 2018  #114
There is something inherently sinister about laws that single out specifics in what one can or cannot say

Oh, I'm not a supporter of the law by any means. It's poorly written and poorly conceived and it's first effect is to drastically increase the use of the phrase Polish Death Camps... very dumb, but it plays into the PiS playbook of trying to convince Polish people that the whole world hates them and only PiS is willing to stand up against all the mean ole' polonophobes...

PiS = PRL2: Electric Boogaloo!
OP WielkiPolak 55 | 1,030    
1 Feb 2018  #115
"whoever accuses, publicly and against the facts, the Polish nation, or the Polish state, of being responsible or complicit in the Nazi crimes" so that would cover individuals.

We obviously read things differently. Polish nation and Polish state doesn't say individual or individuals to me - it's effectively trying to prevent people from claiming the Polish nation worked together with Nazi Germany to make the Holocaust happen. It also says, whoever accuses publicly, against evidence. Members of PiS have made it clear that it isn't about somebody who doesn't know any better, mistakingly saying Polish death camps, it's about purposefully trying to mislead people, contrary to facts. They have also said that artistic work or research is exempt from this law, so it won't prevent anyone from looking in to the Holocaust further and discovering that Polish people did co-operate with the Germans in certain instances.

Not sure what is to be gained by this unenforceable law - seems to me that PS were deliberately trying to provoke a culture war but didn't think the US would get involved.

I don't think that PiS was deliberately trying to provoke anything. They simply had enough of the term 'Polish death camps' being used and people trying to skew the past and turn it in to 'Germany and Poland worked together to kill the Jews.' So they decided they would bring in a law to stop this.

You know Israel has got a similar law for Holocaust denial right? Only it's up to 5 years imprisonment, not just 3. Also, I doubt people will be imprisoned in Poland - that's just the maximum penalty. I expect fines might be dished out to those who purposely try to lie about Poland's involvement.

I agree about the USA's involvement though - it's insane that they are trying to get involved and are basically threatening Poland.

state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2018/01/277802.htm

'We are also concerned about the repercussions this draft legislation, if enacted, could have on Poland's strategic interests and relationships - including with the United States and Israel. The resulting divisions that may arise among our allies benefit only our rivals.'

That just sounds like another way of saying 'you pass this law and you can forget about a partnership with the USA.'

Anyway it has now been passed in the senate, so the president just needs to sign.
Ziemowit 10 | 2,956    
1 Feb 2018  #116
whoever accuses, publicly and against the facts, the Polish nation, or the Polish state, of being responsible or complicit in the Nazi crimes

And it is clear that once they have read this in Israel, they have immediately picked up words like 'Polish nation' and 'complicit in the Nazi crimes'.

And yes, the crucial thing here is how one understands 'nation'. Is it just a large group of individuals belonging to a particular nation (which understanding the Israelis seem to follow) or a large body of people represented by semi-official institutions or bodies and a government in exile (in case the nation exists without a state as was Poland's case during the German occupation 1939-1945 and which understanding the Polish officials seem to follow)?
jgrabner 1 | 54    
1 Feb 2018  #117
the text of the new art. 55a Ustawa o Instytucie Pamięci Narodowej the Senate voted is here on page 5:
senat.gov.pl/download/gfx/senat/pl/senatekspertyzy/4547/plik/722m.pdf

naród polski and państwo polski seems clear to me that this does not concern individual targets. You can still claim that the nation or the government did perpetrate these crimes, you just have to be an artist or a scientist doing your profession (art. 55a/3).
Ziemowit 10 | 2,956    
1 Feb 2018  #118
That just sounds like another way of saying 'you pass this law and you can forget about a partnership with the USA.'

So you suggest Poland should immediately start subscribing to a safe place under Vladimir Putin's umbrella? Strangely, but this has been an idea cherished for a long time by some of "the true Polish patriots" posting here.
mafketis 16 | 5,899    
1 Feb 2018  #119
One problem is that there is no single definition of nation in English (in modern US usage it's most often used to mean 'country' and "a French national" means someone with French citizenship rather than someone who is ethnically French.

Naród is more like ethnic group+, that is a cultural collective (though back in the 90s gazeta wyborcza did a series on small ethnic groups which it referred to as 'narody')

Who knows what it can mean in other languages?

Again the whole thing is meant to foster an 'us vs them' attitude in the population because that's the only mindset that JK understands.
OP WielkiPolak 55 | 1,030    
1 Feb 2018  #120
So you suggest Poland should immediately start subscribing to a safe place under Vladimir Putin's umbrella?

No, I don't. What made you think I did?

I'm simply saying that the USA is trying to tell Poland how to run their nation and directing unnecessary threats at them if they don't.




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