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Israel opposing potential new Polish law to criminalise term 'Polish death camps'


David555 1 | 19
1 Feb 2018 #181
My dad and myself was born in Germany drotmund, my mother is of Polish origin and myself live in dumb place called England.

I studied history of Europe for many years, I travelled through it and lived in about all of the European countries for at least a bit.

Poland should change its thinking. From under Russian rule it became scape goat of Europe a cheap labour supplier.

Poland became free country isn't forced to be a lapdog of the West and if I was Polish president or pm I would look more east and start making business with Russia. Not as its lapdog but equal partner, and I'm sure Russia would be happy about it polish are still angry at Russians. Yet if there was a war Poland will be left on its own just as it was in wwii and I.
Tacitus 2 | 1,452
1 Feb 2018 #182
This whole mess is just another occasion of PiS prioritizing domestic appeal over the diplomatic standing of Poland.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
1 Feb 2018 #183
If this gets a veto from the president because the Israeli government or American senators don't like it, many people in Poland won't be happy

I've just caught up on today's news, and it's hard to disagree with you on this. I don't see what else PiS can do right now - the damage has been done, the media is having a field day bringing up stories of how some Poles did bad things during the war, so...what else can they do but pass the law and hope that it passes over?

Speaking of which, our favourite British-Israeli is still not supporting the Polish government on this one, and even appears to be taking the Israeli line - twitter.com/MrJonnyDaniels/status/958976375632924673 - look at his response about how the Israelis (according to him) didn't see the bill before it was published. PiS are saying that Patryk Jaki was responsible for discussing it with them, so someone is clearly lying.
shockedInpoland
1 Feb 2018 #184
Who are you referring to?

Trump.

And risk a significant cooling of Polish-American relations at a time when Poland is lacking in international allies? Be careful for what you wish for.

Let me guess, nobody will give a damn about this farce.Cancel the $20bn Patriot order, buy European instead if the yanks want to get ****** about it.

This is far too important to back down from.
G (undercover)
1 Feb 2018 #185
Jews are pulling out their ambassador :))) This is too funny.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
1 Feb 2018 #186
hope we get those patriot missiles from USA in time.we might need em soon
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
1 Feb 2018 #187
so...what else can they do but pass the law and hope that it passes over?

Well they have passed it, now it's just up to the president to sign it. Since he has been talking so much about how we can't back down from this, it would be strange if he didn't. The only reason I could see him not would be if the threats from the USA have gotten to him, but then he'd get major backlash for it in Poland for it.

our favourite British-Israeli is still not supporting the Polish government on this one

I've never trusted him and always believed he was only interested in what he can get out of this 'friendship' for Israeli, but I would have thought he would keep that quiet and not make it darn obvious. Instead, he goes on Polish TV and does interviews with Polish papers, saying both sides should calm down and try to work it out and that it's just a misunderstanding - then on social media he does nothing but talk about how wrong Poland is with everything it does.
Lyzko 32 | 7,922
1 Feb 2018 #188
Whole problem with the phrase "Polish Death Camps" is that it falsely (if unintentionally) misrepresents the facts, namely, that they were not "Polish", but in actuality, German death camps which merely stood on what is nowadays Polish soil.

This oughtn't be that difficult to grasp now, should it?
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,024
1 Feb 2018 #189
It shouldn't be and most people you would think, understand this, but some [perhaps those not from Europe] don't and if they hear that incorrect terminology, they will think that they were actually Polish, hence why I think the government want to take a harder stance on this, because people are tired of having to explaining it over and over. Although it's more to prevent deliberate untruthful provocation than somebody using the term by mistake.
Bieganski 17 | 896
1 Feb 2018 #190
This whole mess is just another occasion of PiS prioritizing domestic appeal over the diplomatic standing of Poland.

Bravo PiS for doing what is right and putting Poland's interests first!

Why don't you compare Poland's admirable human right's record and high standing in the world to that of universally detested racist, fascist, apartheid Israel?

How many countries in the world solidly back your tin-pot Zionist regime (particularly during UN resolutions)? What is it, just America and a couple of their far-flung dependent island territories in the Pacific Ocean which nobody every heard of before?

Yeah.

Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again - your self-important Israel is an international pariah.

Only sleazy, corrupt racist politicians and socially awkward, low IQ, racist religious fanatics in other countries give it any serious attention.

Jews are pulling out their ambassador :))) This is too funny.

Good riddance too. No one in Poland will notice. Indeed, how many average Poles can even name the Zionist regime's ambassador?

Diplomatic relations haven't even lasted that long having started only in the late 1940's, being stagnant during the Cold War, and only resuming again in the 1990s.

Trade between Poland and Israel is insignificant and unimportant.
Tacitus 2 | 1,452
2 Feb 2018 #191
Bravo PiS for doing what is right and putting Poland's interests first!

I do not care for the law itself, nor do I care if it offends Israel or others per se. But annoying Israel seems to be a bad idea when the American president (whom Poland desperately wants as an ally) seems to back Israel in everything they do. Creating a possible conflict with the USA can hardly be in Poland's interests. Especially not after they have already been bumping heads with its' European allies.

If you are worried about Russia, you'd better not start offending the countries that could offer you support. That is just common sense.
Casual Observer
2 Feb 2018 #192
How is the law going to work?

If I say and publish anything in France, for example, then no crime was committed in Poland or under Polish jurisdiction, so I presumably couldn;t be prosecuted even I later went into Poland.

So wont the law only apply to people already within Poland, who are less likely to use the phrase, rather than the actual 'targets' of foreign publishers, media, bloggers and commentators?

If the law is protect Poland's reputation, then it surely has no power at all, as it cannot prosecute the people who might want to attack the reputation.

Which all suggests that this is an agenda by the govt to deliver a purely domestic message and make people feel aggrieved, rather than intending to have any actual effect.

The irony is that virtually everyone already knew that the camps were Nazi on occupied and enslaved Polish territory, and hardly anyone had ever heard of the Jedwabne massacre. But they sure as hell know about Jebwabne now, as it's being discussed as the counter-point to the camps: bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42898882
Casual Observer
2 Feb 2018 #193
Creating a possible conflict with the USA can hardly be in Poland's interests.

Very good summary. That's exactly how it's playing in the international media. People get the point, but it seems very heavy-handed and a bit too defensive (there's a saying: The Lady Doth Protest Too Much). The best strategy, if truth were really the objective, would be diplomatic and cultural. A film like The Pianist, and a series like The Nazis, A Warning From History, or The World At War, did so much more than this law ever could - in fact the law and its handling is undermining the issue it wants to promote.

Although PiS seems very good at domestic politics, it seems to be spectacularly bad at international affairs and handling of allies.
Bieganski 17 | 896
2 Feb 2018 #194
But annoying Israel seems to be a bad idea when the American president...seems to back Israel in everything they do.

So that is how the world should be run?

Don't annoy Israel anybody! They'll get America after you!

F that!

Poland is a sovereign nation. If America were a genuine partner which truly believed in freedom and democracy then it would respect the will of the fairly elected Polish government with a large mandate and high approval ratings from the Polish people.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,032
2 Feb 2018 #195
Salomon Morel

Can we say that the camps were actually Jewish as in set up and operated by Jews?

Can we say Japanese Nuclear Explosions over Hiroshima and Nagasaki? That (genocide) happened in Japan. To me that was American Genocide commited on Japanese civilians.
Casual Observer
2 Feb 2018 #196
So that is how the world should be run?

Of course not. But the world is messy. The only thing between Poland and Putin is an America currently led by a manchild, who bankroll Nato and care more about Israel than they do about Poland. That's just the way it is.

Poland also has EU protection, but EU defence is basically the UK (leaving, long way from Poland), Germany (Poland keeps kicking them) and France (Poland p1$$ed them off massively by pulling out of the defence contract).

Poland needs powerful allies and alliances, and right now it is losing or damaging them at a spectacular rate.

The sad fact is that this law and the escalating row with Israel (and so America) was unnecessary. It's the law of unintedned consequences - designed to bolster support for PiS at home, but has unexpectedly damaged Poland and could erode the future safety of Poles. Not really worth it, is it?
Casual Observer
2 Feb 2018 #197
Can we say Japanese Nuclear Explosions over Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

That is actually perfectly understandable in its meaning.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,032
2 Feb 2018 #198
So we should accept Americans talking about Polish Death Camps and Israelis acting like Holocaust was only a JEWISH thing? LolOLLoloLOollO

Please enlighten me. How many citizens of the country of Israel died in German Death Camps based in Poland?

If this guy is British to you then ill say 3 millions of Jews were Poles and not Israeli. That makes it 6 millions of POLISH souls died in Holocaust. WTF has Israel to do with that?
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,032
2 Feb 2018 #199
i meant this guy



They were considered Poles and treated just like that. Jews came to Poland since 13th century when they were BANISHED from Germany and France. We accepted them into Poland and treated them equally . ALWAYS.
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,032
2 Feb 2018 #200
If i bomb London tomorrow killing 8 million will you say 8 million of BRITS died in London? I bet that less than 50% of people living there have anything in common with Britain.
Casual Observer
2 Feb 2018 #201
WTF has Israel to do with that?

Because Israel is a Jewish state, founded by holocaust survivors, as a direct response to the Holocaust.

Holocaust was only a JEWISH thing?

Where has anyone said that?

The Holocaust was primarily aimed at eradication of Jews, and Jews were the biggest cohort of victims by far, regardless of nationality. The stated aim of the Holocaust by the nazis themselves was not 'eradication of Poles'. They specifically said it was about a final solution to the 'Jewish question' (NOT the Polish question). They had other plans for Poles as a group, but the Holocaust was not it.

I am not able to tell the religion or nationality of the man in the picture you posted.
Casual Observer
2 Feb 2018 #202
If i bomb London tomorrow killing 8 million will you say 8 million of BRITS died in London?

Ah, I see, you're one of those 'blood and soil' racialists. The Nazis used to talk like that.

What can you mean by 'in common'? Does living there not qualify?
NoToForeigners 10 | 1,032
2 Feb 2018 #203
No it wasn't. Hitler wanted to kill ALL POLES TOO.

In common i mean looks, ethnics, faith, religion and most importantly what they consider they are themselves., Like Polish Tatars consider themselves (and prove) Polish regardless of being muslims. Most Jews killed in German Death Camps CONSIDERED THEMSELVES POLES not Jews. Do you believe 8 millions of Londoners are Brits? Or maybe they're Jews? Or maybe they consider themselves Vietnamese but after they're dead it's you who decide they're Brits?
Bieganski 17 | 896
2 Feb 2018 #204
That's just the way it is.

All the more reason then that Poland shouldn't care what international basket-case pariah Israel or their Zionist stooges over in America think.

There is not one instance in Polish history of America doing anything to protect Poland from her enemies anyway.

Israel isn't in Europe. Israel isn't part of the EU. Israel isn't in NATO.

If a promise from America to Poland depends on psychotic, narcissistic Israel's say-so then America is no friend to Poland at all.

one of those 'blood and soil' racialists. The Nazis used to talk like that.

The Zionists still do.
Casual Observer
2 Feb 2018 #205
No it wasn't. Hitler wanted to kill ALL POLES TOO.

No, he wanted them as a slave labour workforce. Hence Poles were mostly deported to the eastern region, not to the camps. However, for the Jews, the policy was eradication, in the Holocaust. They were all sent to camps, none to open regions.
Ironside 51 | 11,510
2 Feb 2018 #206
Very well, if you publish some lies about Poland during WWII. You can forget to take your holiday in Poland. Even to change your place in Poland could be a problem.

@all

By the way. Poland doesn't need an embassy in Israel. Neither Israeli ambassador is needed in Poland. Kick her out for a good measure. Ah all those business deal with Israel, kiss is good bye.

See if Israeli lobby in USA is strong enough to pull a quickie on Poland. maybe some 'red-necks' and Trump should show them that America won't do any dirty job for Israel for some shekels. Those who are so keen to take them Jewish money are surely not acting in American best interest.

-@delph
Johnny Daniels it surely sound like a bad Joke from those James Bond novels.
Tacitus 2 | 1,452
2 Feb 2018 #207
If a promise from America to Poland depends on psychotic, narcissistic Israel's say-so then America is no friend to Poland at all.

The problem is that Poland is fast running out of friends if PiS continues with its' current course. That would be fine if Poland was an island like the UK, but since PiS openly considers its' neighbour Russia as a threat, one has to question the wisdom of alienating its' allies like this.

@Ironside

some 'red-necks' and Trump should show them that America won't do any dirty job for Israel for some shekels

Are we talking about the same government that showed unwavering support for Israel Jerusalem-question? And you think that the same government would not side with Israel over this too?
Casual Observer
2 Feb 2018 #208
If a promise from America to Poland depends on psychotic, narcissistic Israel's say-so then America is no friend to Poland at all.

You're correct in all of this. But despite all of that, American is still the best defence that Poland has. Followed by Germany.

Let's be honest, there is no way that Poland alone could resist a Russian invasion and attack. There is no way that it could resist the sort of semi-invasion seen in Ukraine. The only reason that Putin is not mobilising further west is the possibility that American and Germany/UK/France would respond.

The more Poland estranges itself from these countries, the more vulnerable it is.

It's not fair, it's not right and it's not comfortable. But is IS true. So Poland needs to play a more diplomatic game, purely in its own interests, because Poland does not alone hold the cards to its own security. It needs its friends, even if they're orange-tinted a$$ h oles or former occupiers. On balance, Putin is far, far worse.
Ironside 51 | 11,510
2 Feb 2018 #209
its' allies like this.

Well, lets call it bluff and see if USA mean it. If they do, Poland should already put it hand on some nuke or a few.
Casual Observer
2 Feb 2018 #210
Even to change your place in Poland could be a problem.

You mean using the proscribed term? Why would it be a problem being in Poland? How would the law apply? If it wouldn't apply, then there is no real problem is there?


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