How do you see the future of Polish-Ukrainian relations?
I don't foresee any major changes... lots of Ukrainians have worked and lived in Poland and seen for themselves that there is a non-Soviet non-Russian way of ordering a Slavic society.
Ukrainians generate remarkably little social tension and the countries are on about as good terms as is probable. Once a people have learned they can change governments they're not going to be rushing back to Russian style authoritarianism.
lots of Ukrainians have worked and lived in Poland and seen for themselves that there is a non-Soviet non-Russian way of ordering a Slavic society.
Not only Poland. Lot of Ukrainians also worked in Czech republic or Slovakia or visited them. Those are even better examples. Not forget also uniqueness of the Balkan Slavs.
Polish-Ukrainian relations depend solely on western Europe and Vatican. I doubt that will official Poland ever be able to arrange its relations with Ukraine as it suits to Polish interests. Germany would want that, Vatican would want this, France will be wise, etc, etc.... all to the time when neither Poland, neither Ukraine exist or actually exist as areas within soup of something.
Don`t you realize real reason why did Russia ever even allowed for formation of Ukrainian state and intervene only for the regions where is Russia clear to have influence. Russia drowning line. Rest? Rest is lost not only to Russia but for Poland, too. Man, Poland is lost to Poles, after all and Poles even don`t know it yet.
Maybe the closest, but still lots of problems (from a former sort of colleague who lived there many years) too many unresponsive, incompetent governments in a row.
I've only been to Ljubljana, which is a very pleasant city (more bookshops per capita than anywhere else I've seen... and I have a weird affection for their oddball language) but it's also too different a culture area from Ukraine to be useful as a model.
I think Slovenian may take the third place among Slavic languages in sense of beauty after Russian and Ukrainian. What do you think about that? I like Slovenian culture too. Do you think one day Ukraine may borrow culture from Western Slavs?
The population is slowly westernizing (a process that sort of dates to the orange revolution when they learned they can have an influence on the government, an influence that the Russian population, modern serfs, neither has nor wants).
It's a slow process and beset with lots of problems but it is progressiing and the western slavic countries can be some help. It's obvious how much better off Poland is outside the Russian sphere of influence than inside it, and that's the immediate aim, to stop being a Russian vassal state.
When I lived in Ukraine decades ago I didn't remark there would be a cult of anyone in Ukraine. The vast majority of population was and is obsessed with completely different daily problems. For example SURVIVAL.
First they have to officially and practically renounce the cult of Stefan Bandera and UPA, just like Germany renounced Adolf Hitler and NSDAP.
According to international standards in order for government to renounce something officially, an extensive court processes need to take the place on which proves and evidence have to be provided. Exactly like it took place in Nuremberg, Germany.
Poland won`t be capable to influence that what remain of Ukraine. Germany and France are faster. Vatican, too. Sure, Russia would rather desire to work with Poland but who gives a sh** what Russia desire. Russia was for compromise, wanted Ukraine out of NATO, even Ukraine within EU was alright. Russia wanted Ukraine as bridge between Polish and Russian interests. Russia with mediation of Serbs allowed for POLUKRBAT to happen but, then comes the maiden. You Poles can rise monument to POLUKRBAT as memory that you had influence in Ukraine. Now it goes to Germany and France. In such a situation, sure, ethnic Russians do have right to escape from it.
So, my Polish sisters and brothers you better talk of Poland within Magna Franco-Germania. Don`t dream of anything out of it. You are well enslaved.
Or, you maybe have backbone? You want to pay the price?
Nothing especially, but they don't fit in anybody else's box and Ukrainian nationalism can only exist at the expense of other, older nationalisms (esp Polish and Russian). The language is too close to Polish for Russians (who can be quite deranged in their hatred of it) and too much like Russian for Poles (who don't have strong feelings about it). On the other hand Poland has more direct and recent experience with the worst strains of old school Ukrainian nationalism.
Ironically, Putin has done more for Ukrainian nationalism than any Ukrainian since WWII though it's far removed from earlier versions.
it makes sense tho. How would you feel if you had to be some serf or working class all your life for some polish landlords. Ever watch the movie braveheart? what they did sort of makes sense and their nationalism as well. I mean how can Poland complain about some Yalta conference or Katyn when they were starved to death?
Ukrainian nationalism can only exist at the expense of other, older nationalisms (esp Polish and Russian)
If realistic, without foreign meddling, Ukrainian nationalism would limit itself on those who feel to be Ukrainian. Or would simple disolve onto Russian, Polish or Serbian nationalism, actually rather patriotism.
@Bobko The Armenian people are very anti-Russian, but the country is threatened by turkey and Azerbaijan and has to compromise with Russia, although the Armenian government and people still want to drive out the Russian garrison, and hope to attract American or French troops to protect Armenia from aggression.
@Dirk diggler Stalin was not a Georgian, he was an Ossetian, and the Ossetians were accomplices brought by the Russian invasion of the Caucasus and then settled there, but the Ossetians were from the Turkic Mongol lineage and only stayed in the Caucasus for a long time and mixed with some Caucasian natives, but the Ossetians still had many even obvious Mongolian Turkic characteristics, such as Stalin's super large head is a typical Mongolian feature, which is completely different from the traditional Caucasus appearance.
@johnny reb In 2016, he almost succeeded (killing Erdogan), but Putin did not want to lose Erdogan and took some measures to help him stabilize the regime, and the successful cooperation between the two demons usually hurts the good people physically and mentally.
Indeed, the United States should bluntly condemn the erstwhile erdogan's government for its failure to govern, which can somewhat inhibit his will to hurt those who were once against him but are very kind.
@yjmbestboy You seem to be well informed. We need more intellectual members here so why don't you become a member ? What country are you posting from ?
@johnny reb I'm just interested in international politics, and I'm sympathetic to the situation of the Armenians, so I have a bad impression of the Erdogan regime in Turkey, and although the Erdogan regime has relented a lot in recent times, it's hard to tell what he really intends.
I think Polish-Ukrainian history was sad. Who was guilty in it? Could it be complitely different? Could they become brothers? Could they forgive each other and become at least friends?
If not for Rome that always wanted all for itself and Germanics, Russia would already be Poland. In fact, Poland would be Serbia (ie Sarmatia) and we all would be Serbia. Europe would be Serbia or at least Serbs, same as what was before Roman madness occurred.
Now, say thanks to Rome you are not a Serb yourself. See how Romans degraded you.
