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Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash


jon357 63 | 14,134
14 Apr 2015  #631
However, there is nothing in a way of a hard evidence that would justify to give a name - a final report to yet another attempt of the inept government to cover their backs in the case of the investigation that for all the practical purposes have been botched by them a big time.

In the absence of 'hard evidence' the investigators have to use the data that actually exists. This all points to an accident, not an attempted coup d'état as publicly alleged by cranks like Macierewicz, broadly dismissed within Poland and perpetuated by some in this thread.

Would you be so kind and stop posting off-topic?

Just how are the issues concerning report on the Smolensk accident 'off-topic' in a thread about the report on the Smolensk accident.
Harry
14 Apr 2015  #632
not an attempted coup d'état as publicly alleged by cranks like Macierewicz, broadly dismissed within Poland and perpetuated by some in this thread.

Why would anybody want to hold a coup d'état to replace a president who has virtually no executive power and was heading for electoral armageddon a few months later? The man was a superb vote winner for the government.

This all points to an accident

It most certainly does. But hypothesis doesn't support a claim that LK was murdered. If the Russians had wanted him dead, they would have waited for his life to fall apart first. He was heading for the utter humiliation of being the first president in the history of Poland to not make it past the first round of a presidential election. After he'd had some time to suffer that, then his tea could have been made radioactive. There was no need and no reason to make a martyr out of the man. In fact, the man who had the most reason to martyr LK was the brother who even now wears a black tie every day.
jon357 63 | 14,134
14 Apr 2015  #633
Exactly, however the Smolenskist tendency among the PiSuarzy (and conspiracy theorists in general) like all that sort of stuff, however illogical.

It does however get JK and his crowd of loons on the TV news and distracts from their lack of coherent political policies, from their lack of appeal to voters and from all the other potential embarrassments within their party.
Harry
14 Apr 2015  #634
the Smolenskist tendency among the PiSuarzy (and conspiracy theorists in general) like all that sort of stuff, however illogical.

I suppose it has become a rather useful shibboleth for Polish politicians, sorts the cretins from the slightly thick.

It does however get JK and his crowd of loons on the TV news and distracts from their lack of coherent political policies, from their lack of appeal to voters and from all the other potential embarrassments within their party.

The problem (for PiS) is that the only people who are interested in the Smolensk fetishism that JK and his ilk so clearly want to bring up at every occasion are all going to vote PiS anyway (apart from some who might vote for somebody else if Father Director tells them to). JK is just preaching to the choir and driving away the middle-of-the-road voters which the winner of any election here has to attract.
Vox - | 175
17 Apr 2015  #635
In the absence of 'hard evidence' the investigators have to use the data that actually exists

Are you referring to the data handed over by the Putin's people? You may take Mr. Putin word on it but I would rather wait and withhold my opinion on the issue till the real evidence can be examined.
jon357 63 | 14,134
17 Apr 2015  #636
The problem (for PiS) is that the only people who are interested in the Smolensk fetishism that JK and his ilk so clearly want to bring up at every occasion are all going to vote PiS anyway (apart from some who might vote for somebody else if Father Director tells them to). JK is just preaching to the choir and driving away the middle-of-the-road voters which the winner of any election here has to attract.

Absolutely. The problem is that some extremely limited individuals will always look for conspiracies where there are none and only consider something true if they agree with it. Generally the conspiracy theories around the Smolensk accident are part of a package of fringe beliefs - the Smolenskists tend to hold the whole package.

The conspiracy thing's become something of a national joke - and a rather tasteless one considering the number of casualties.
Harry
17 Apr 2015  #637
Are you referring to the data handed over by the Putin's people? You may take Mr. Putin word on it but I would rather wait and withhold my opinion on the issue till the real evidence can be examined.

OK, so we can just look at the evidence which wasn't provided by them, i.e. the fact that ATC told PLF 101 that there were no conditions for landing and that the pilot went below his cleared minimum, his qualified minimums and the plane's minimums.
Crow 137 | 7,644
18 Apr 2015  #638
are you joking Harry? is this kind of mental petting of yours?
Wulkan - | 3,251
18 Apr 2015  #639
The conspiracy thing's become something of a national joke

Maybe among the PO lovers
Yoursir Grenwod
18 Apr 2015  #640
Wasn't the airfield ready? I remember something about preparing the field after the crash and camera people being denied acess? Something smells fishy
jon357 63 | 14,134
18 Apr 2015  #641
Maybe among the PO lovers

Among anyone who can see what an embarrassment certain of the PiSuarzy, such as they are, are making of themselves over this whole issue.

I remember something about preparing the field after the crash and camera people being denied acess?

Normal at a crash site - it's considered poor taste to allow cameramen and paparazzi to peer their lenses at body parts.

The recordings also seem to show that people were drinking beer either in the cockpit or close by, though it is unclear who was drinking. The pilots appear distracted by other people, with seven instances where someone in the cockpit was asked to keep quiet or leave. Just two minutes before the crash, someone says: &#********, can you all stop, please."

qz.com/378233/leaked-recordings-reveal-chaos-in-the-cockpit-of-the-polish-presidential-plane-that-crashed-in-2010/

A few weeks old but worth reading. It demolishes all the conspiracy theories - the truth is often so much more banal than the hysteria.
Harry
13 May 2015  #642
people were drinking beer either in the cockpit or close by

Any word on whether it was zminy Lech?
jon357 63 | 14,134
13 May 2015  #643
Hard to tell from the voices they could recover from the tape, but interestingly not all has been released. The PiSuarzy would hate yet more footage (remember "spieprzaj dziadu") that paints him in a bad light.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
13 May 2015  #644
You've never lost your temper, have you? If you're human (?), you have. Does that paint you in a bad light. Badmouthing the deceased who cannot defend themselves -- that's real class, innit?
Harry
13 May 2015  #645
You've never lost your temper, have you?

I certainly never have when a pilot was telling me it's not safe to land a plane and risk the lives of everybody else on that plane just so my plans aren't put back by a few hours. Have you?
jon357 63 | 14,134
13 May 2015  #646
You've never lost your temper, have you? If you're human (?), you have. Does that paint you in a bad light. Badmouthing the deceased who cannot defend themselves -- that's real class, innit?

Certainly never in front in front of TV cameras while Mayor of the city. Nor did he, since he hadn't 'lost his temper' - his spite was fully controlled and aimed at a vulnerable person. By the way, A politician being dead does not mean that you only have to mention their good points - which in his case were few. Otherwise there would never be any appraisal of historical figures.

Interesting what the rest of the transcript said. It certainly demolishes all those paranoid conspiracy theories. Those public figured who've levelled wild accusations against members of the government should apologise. Hopefully it will shut Macierewicz up.
Harry
13 May 2015  #647
Hopefully it won't, every time he opens his mouth he wins hundreds of votes for the anti-PiS coalition.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
13 May 2015  #648
Spieprzaj dziadu had nothing to do with Smolensk, but I forgot you speak no Polish. Sorry.

The bottom line is that the Tusk regime bears the ultimate blame for the Smolensk tragedy. The Tuskites played up the Tusk-led delegation and neglected the presidential flight. The latter was manned by inexperienced aviators and the regime agreed to let the plane land at a ramshackle, disused ex-military air strip which was a big mistake right then and there. Russian maintenance crews after the crash were seen hastily screwing fresh light bulbs into the airport's landing lights. Minutes before the crash occurred Tusk was seen hugging and smiling at Putin.
jon357 63 | 14,134
14 May 2015  #649
That's just paranoia. And at least we now know there was interference in the cockpit.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 May 2015  #650
That flight should never have been approved in the first place. The govenrment organisers of official top-level flights are certainly not without blame. What country would put its First Couple and a wide array of top brass and dignitaries in an old., beat-up plane manned by inexperienced pilots and send them to a ramshackle decommissioned airport? You're web-savvy enough to go back to that period and re-read some of the nonsense surrounding the planned event. There was even a question as to whether Kaczyński would get a Russian visa, and the Tusk regime rather than lodging an official protest, chuckled under their noses like the scum they realy are.
jon357 63 | 14,134
14 May 2015  #651
That's actually as comical as something the clown Jaro Kaczynski would have squeezed out - 'should never have been put on' doesn't apply for the head of state, nor is the visa thing more of a distraction. Sad that you call the country's Premier "scum" though, and try to shift the blame for the accident on him, when it lies squarely with the person or persons who were in the cockpit interfering with the flight. Remember any incidents with a certain Kaczynski interfering with pilots before, by any chance?

No reason for him even to be there, given that the Premier was there too.
Harry
14 May 2015  #652
What country would put its First Couple and a wide array of top brass and dignitaries in an old., beat-up plane manned by inexperienced pilots and send them to a ramshackle decommissioned airport?

Hmm, is it the same country whose leader changed destinations in mid-air, pressing the pilot to land in Tbilisi, Georgia, even though conditions were dangerous during Russia's short war with the country and after the pilot refused, said leader later declared "If someone decides to become an officer they should not be cowardly."?

There was even a question as to whether Kaczyński would get a Russian visa

Requiring a head of state to get a visa, there's an interesting idea; where in the non-existent passport of Queen Elizabeth would such a visa be put?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 May 2015  #653
There was every reason for Poland's Head of state to attend the Katyń commmeoration -- an event of great national importance. Tusk should have graciuously bowed out since the President was going, but instead he made sure to get there first so he could kiss and hug Putin. Tusk's lips weren't red like Jaruzelski's after meeting Brezhnev so apparently Putin did not have haemorrhoids at that time.
jon357 63 | 14,134
14 May 2015  #654
Then, as everywhere, he should have followed the direction of the Premier, rather than misbehave as usual. If he or his aides hadn't caused an accident which killed him as well as innocent passengers doubtless he'd have made a fool of himself in some way over the ceremony.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 May 2015  #655
No, the Tusk regime was squarely to blame for its slighting, side-tracking attitude that resulted in a flight that should have never happened. Not only was a worn-out plane used, inexperienced pilots were assigned to fly it, a ramshackle decommissioned airprot which apparently no-one bothered to check ahead of time was chosen and even the weather conditions were against such a flight taking off, But all precautions were thrown to the wind so PM Tusk could pocałować Putina w d****!.
jon357 63 | 14,134
14 May 2015  #656
It was a government plane, a qualified pilot and it was the nearest airport - and after all, the pilot advised otherwise. Such a shame that the PiSuarzy always try to apportion blame elsewhere.
Harry
14 May 2015  #657
Not only was a worn-out plane used, inexperienced pilots were assigned to fly it, a ramshackle decommissioned airprot which apparently no-one bothered to check ahead of time was chosen

The reality is that that same plane had landed at that same airport with that same pilot three days earlier. The only difference on the 10 April flight was that the captain of the 7 April flight wasn't allowed to fly it because he had previously offended Kaczynski by landing in a war zone, so the captain on the 10 April flight was a pilot who had personal experience of what happened to pilots who put safety above landing where and when Kaczynski told them to land.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 May 2015  #658
Some truth also makes it through even on PiS-bashing TVN24. You can dwell on the alleged cockpit scene all you want, but things should never have got that far.

tvn24.pl/wiadomosci-z-kraju,3/katastrofa-smolenska-zaloga-bez-uprawnien-tu-154m,534082.html

The Tu-154M crew was hastily recruited. Instead of the regulation two hours they had only 20 minutes' notice. Before take-off they were given a fallacious weather report. The Russians sent information on the procedures in force at Smolensk airport two hours after the disaster. "The plane should not have been allowed to take off from Okęcie, let alone land at the primitively equipped airfield in Smolensk." the experts concluded.

The experts pointed out that the commander of the T-154M had all his rights suspended and lacked valid landing permits. The navigator had never had any practical training aboard a Tu-154M

and also lacked authorisation. The second pilot lacked experience. "That crew should not have been allowed to man the flight," the experts concluded.

And Putin is being victimised by the West, and Hitler didn't attack Poland -- but Poland attacked Germany at the Gleiwitz radio station, and the Third Reich was only defending itself. If someone is bent on whitewashing and defending his PO masters at all costs, bits and pieces can always be spliced together to "prove" a point.

Back to the topic please
Shaman
14 May 2015  #659
The report is ok and just ppl who want to make it an assassination look for some hidden agenda.
Few facts:
President was pushing himself into the celebration.
HIS stuff was responsible for organising it (yes president has his own officials who plan his trips and these are ppl that are hired by HIM)

The weather was bad and unsuitable.
The plane crew was told to fly to a different airport
Someone was in the cockpit saying the pilots should land despite anything.

Yeah, I'm sure that was all PO fault :)
I hope that it will settle down finally but somehow I doubt it. Poles will always argue about this.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
14 May 2015  #660
I strongly doubt Smolensk was a deliberately planned assassination. Only some ISIS idiot could wnat to destroy a country's poltical and military elite in a single stroike. The root cause was negligence, neglect, poor planning and a slighting attitude to the presidential delegation, since King Donald was supposed to take centre stage.


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