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Polish final report on Smoleńsk aircrash


pawian 144 | 7,546    
  29 Jul 2011  #1
The report is being presented on TV now and available online in English and Russian.

Final report of the Committee for Investigation of National Aviation Accidents into the causes and circumstances of the Tu-154M plane crash (tail number 101) in Smoleńsk

On 29 July 2011 the Committee for Investigation of National Aviation Accidents presented the final report into the causes and circumstances of the Tu-154M plane crash (tail number 101) in Smoleńsk.


mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/FinalReportTu-154M.pdf

mswia.datacenter-poland.pl/FinalReportTu-154MRussian.pdf

komisja.smolensk.gov.pl/portal/kbw/633/8875/Raport_koncowy_w_sprawie_ustalenia_okolicznosci_i_przyczyn_katastrofy_samolotu_T.html

The conclusions:

Russians made serious mistakes which could be of certain importance.

Polish mistakes were crushing, though, and directly contributed to the accident.

3.2.1. Cause of Accident
The immediate cause of the accident was the descent below the minimum descent altitude at an excessive rate of descent in weather conditions which prevented visual contact with the ground, as well as a delayed execution of the go-around procedure. Those circumstances led to an impact on a terrain obstacle resulting in separation of a part of the left wing with aileron and consequently to the loss of aircraft control and eventual ground impact.

3.2.2. Circumstances Contributing to the Accident
1) Failure to monitor altitude by means of a pressure altimeter during a non-precision approach;
2) failure by the crew to respond to the PULL UP warning generated by the TAWS;
3) attempt to execute the go-around maneuver under the control of ABSU (automatic go-around);
...


komisja.smolensk.gov.pl/download/72/13484/raportinfoen.pdf
pip 10 | 1,661    
29 Jul 2011  #2
I don't think the Russians will ever take responsibility. Blame the dead- it is easier.
SzwedwPolsce 11 | 1,595    
29 Jul 2011  #3
Failure to monitor altitude by means of a pressure altimeter during a non-precision approach. Failure by the crew to respond to the PULL UP warning generated by the TAWS. Attempt to execute the go-around maneuver under the control of ABSU (automatic go-around).

The captain is always responsible for all of the above task (in this case, mistakes).
All experts seem to agree that the landing should have been aborted much earlier in this WC.
db1874 7 | 227    
29 Jul 2011  #4
the flight attendants even get a ticking off, hardly fair, if passengers don't fasten the seatbelt it's their own fault.

"104) The purser reported the cabin prepared for landing although she had failed to check whether the passengers fastened their seat belts for landing (many victims did not have their seat belts fastened)."
OP pawian 144 | 7,546    
  29 Jul 2011  #5
The opposition PiS party organised a conference. Its main pointis that the Polish report is full of lies and falsifications.

The lies are to diminish the responsibility of present government`s mistakes and failures. Especially, the Interior Minester should have sent his men to check the Smolensk airport which wasn`t done. And Foreign Minister should have insisted on the presence of Russian flight leader on board the Polish plane.

the flight attendants even get a ticking off, hardly fair, if passengers don't fasten the seatbelt it's their own fault.

Why unfair? She reported sth that wasn`t true. It is against the rules, isn`t it?
delphiandomine 85 | 17,470    
  29 Jul 2011  #6
Polish mistakes were crushing, though, and directly contributed to the accident.

So far, from what I've read - what's terrifying is that neither pilot, nor the navigator were allowed to actually fly the plane.

The opposition PiS party organised a conference. Its main pointis that the Polish report is full of lies and falsifications.

Gotta love the patriotism - a report compiled by the military leadership is condemned as being "full of lies".
db1874 7 | 227    
29 Jul 2011  #7
Why unfair? She reported sth that wasn`t true. It is against the rules, isn`t it?

if they know that she didn't check everyone had their belt fastened then fair enough, but perhaps she did check and then some of the passengers unfastened them afterwards as is common here.
OP pawian 144 | 7,546    
29 Jul 2011  #8
but perhaps she did check and then some of the passengers unfastened them afterwards as is common here.

Oops, I didn`t think about it.
al111 13 | 89    
29 Jul 2011  #9
Considering the chain of events that unfolded on that fateful day one begins to wonder if this is just a blame game.The pilots were at fault so the report says but hold your horses the Russians were also at fault for giving wrong information to the Pilots who were trying to land the plane in bad weather conditions on an ill equipped airport (or a military airport). How about this way, maybe Kaczyński should have never put pressure on the Pilots to land in such bad conditions in the first place because i don't see why it's so difficult for the government to admit this while many people in the country know it was his fault. (You can ask the Pilot who flew him to Georgia) Is it very difficult to admit that? I'm sure people are tired of this blame game it's time they should just put it to rest and for once accept responsibility...
delphiandomine 85 | 17,470    
  29 Jul 2011  #10
How about this way, maybe Kaczyński should have never put pressure on the Pilots to land in such bad conditions in the first place because i don't see why it's so difficult for the government to admit this while many people in the country know it was his fault.

To be fair - he was only a small part of it. The report makes it pretty clear that there were mass institutional failings, and Kaczynski was only really a small bit of it. It wasn't his fault, for instance, that neither of the pilots were actually allowed to fly.

Something that just caught my eye - despite there being a ban on the use of mobile phones onboard planes operated by the Regiment - there were 18 (18!) phones turned on at the time of the crash :/
Ironside 47 | 9,394    
29 Jul 2011  #11
They always blame pilots. The fact is that planes almost fly by themselves, and mistakes sure thing can happen but the truth is that government (I don't talk only about Polish and Russian governments) are looking for a scapegoat and who make a better scapegoat than pilots?
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,177    
29 Jul 2011  #12
Polish mistakes were

These are not "Polish" mistakes, these are the mistakes of the government's institutions.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,470    
29 Jul 2011  #13
They always blame pilots. The fact is that planes almost fly by themselves, and mistakes sure thing can happen but the truth is that government (I don't talk only about Polish and Russian governments) are looking for a scapegoat and who make a better scapegoat than pilots?

The plane has a commander - and it's the commander's responsibility to fly the plane.

At the end of the day - even if there was systematic institutional failures - it doesn't excuse the commander.

These are not "Polish" mistakes, these are the mistakes of the government's institutions.

Ah yes, you're correct. The report does make it clear that for years, there has been problems - one particular "rulebook" from 2006 is mentioned, for instance. Remind me, who was in charge in 2006?

Don't bother with your petty point scoring - it's clear from the report that every single government from 1994 has some liability here.
OP pawian 144 | 7,546    
  29 Jul 2011  #14
Grzegorz - These are not "Polish" mistakes, these are the mistakes of the government's institutions.

Which had dropped from Mars, you forgot to add. :):):):):)
delphiandomine 85 | 17,470    
29 Jul 2011  #15
Hahaha.

Just found several more things that were "wrong" in 2006 - quite obviously, Jaroslaw Kaczynski should resign immediately as it was the Government's fault then too by our friends logic.
pip 10 | 1,661    
29 Jul 2011  #16
here is another report saying there was no pressure from the President.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904800304576475660195378844.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

"No signs have been found that the pilots were under pressure from the president or others to land, the committee said. The committee also pointed to procedural errors at the Polish air force detachment in charge of flying the country's top officials. The crew wasn't trained properly and lacked training on flight simulators, it said. Three out of four crew members lacked the necessary certification for flights using the Russian-made Tupolev aircraft Poland used for flying its leaders, the committee added."
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,177    
29 Jul 2011  #17
it's clear from the report that every single government from 1994 has some liability here.

That's obvious.

Which had dropped from Mars, you forgot to add. :):):):):)

No, elected by cartoonish people like you.
al111 13 | 89    
  29 Jul 2011  #18
there were mass institutional failings,

You've just shot yourself in the foot here Delphy as head of the institution and putting all those important dignitaries on that plane the buck stops with him. If the Pilots had said no to his command like the one in Georgia i don't think we'd even be discussing about this. You've been here long enough to know the kind of person he was. I wonder what the families of the other people who perished in this disaster have to say about this. I've always been told you never lose anything by admitting when you're wrong, thats what the government should have done and apologised to the bereaved families rather than to look for blame....
delphiandomine 85 | 17,470    
29 Jul 2011  #19
To be honest - this is where the Presidency is a bit of a mess because of the constitution. If he was a true commander-in-chief (like the President of the United States, or of France) - then yes, the responsibility stops with him. But it's ceremonial - that was made clear after the Georgia incident.

The true head is the Defence Minister in Polish constitutional theory.

If the Pilots had said no to his command like the one in Georgia i don't think we'd be even discussing about this.

But why would he say no? There was absolutely nothing wrong with going to Smolensk, descending to minima, waiting around for half an hour and then diverting to an alternate airport. Quite normal - and it's what you'd expect them to do. Completely different situation to overflying a warzone. I'm no fan of Kaczynski, but the "pressure" theory is only a small part of the overall disaster.

I wonder what the families of the other people who perished in this disaster have to say about this.

I think, at least the sensible ones, will read the report and see that mass institutional failings from the top down were to blame.

thats what the government should have done and apologised to the bereaved families rather than to look for blame....

Wasn't there already an apology quite quickly?
f stop 25 | 2,515    
29 Jul 2011  #20
The conclusions:

Russians made serious mistakes which could be of certain importance.

It's interesting that this is the one you put forth first, while the report lists 3 much more damaging causes first... But I do understand. Seems like almosr everyone would have been relieved if more fault was found with the russians.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,470    
29 Jul 2011  #21
Seems like almosr everyone would have been relieved if more fault was found with the russians.

I think they were almost desperate to pin some blame on the Russians - if only to try and deflect attention from themselves. The culture within the Air Force is shocking - yet - I doubt if anything will actually change.
al111 13 | 89    
29 Jul 2011  #22
But it's ceremonial - that was made clear after the Georgia incident.

I don't normally argue with people online but Delphy u stand to be corrected on this mate. Check your facts the Polish Presidency is not entirely ceremonial. Why do u think Kaczyński and Tusk were always at loggerheads (and please don't bring in the Pis and Po jaggorn). I agree with you on the Minister of Defence being the head of the army (thats why he has stepped down) but the President's role in Poland's not entirely ceremonial....
delphiandomine 85 | 17,470    
29 Jul 2011  #23
I don't normally argue with people online but Delphy u stand to be corrected on this mate.

Corrected on what? The constitution (and subsequent clarifications/interpretations) make it clear.

Check your facts the Polish Presidency is not entirely ceremonial.

Not entirely so, but in terms of military matters, it is. The President is nominally Commander-in-Chief - but has no ability to make decisions. The appointment of the commanders is really just a formality - they don't really 'do' anything despite being the top guys.

but the President's role in Poland's not entirely ceremonial....

Well, he does have some limited executive powers, but really, in terms of practical matters, he has no control over military matters. Even the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland is civilian (which is why there was such confusion over the status of the flight).

I know where you're coming from, but the report does make it clear that there was no pressure applied to the pilots at the time - except of course, the previous Georgia incident playing on their minds. As I said - Kaczynski has a small part in all of this, but can't be blamed directly for the disaster.

And yes, Kilch has gone - as he had to. Ultimately, he had to take responsibility - it was his job to protect the President and others, and failed to do so.
teflcat 5 | 1,032    
29 Jul 2011  #24
Some would believe it was all the fault of the Russians whatever evidence were produced. It's a question of "I want this to be true; therefore it is true". Something to do with"faith" I suppose. The President's putting on the pressure wasn't the only factor, but it was a significant one.
Sokrates 8 | 3,348    
29 Jul 2011  #25
The report is a joke.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,470    
  29 Jul 2011  #26
The President's putting on the pressure wasn't the only factor, but it was a significant one.

I think to actually get the true idea of what happened, you need to read both the Russian and Polish reports. I haven't finished reading the Polish report, but if it doesn't contain any psychological analysis of the crew - then the Russian report should be taken into account too.

Some interesting stuff is emerging though - such as the Russians cutting down trees after the accident and getting caught out by the Poles who were sneaky enough to take lots of photos just after the crash.

Anyway, no surprise that the usual crowd are claiming that it's full of lies and suchlike.

Must admit, I'm going to trust the people who wrote the report over a bunch of politically motivated morons who would write anything to further their own agenda.
Grzegorz_ 52 | 6,177    
29 Jul 2011  #27
Some would believe it was all the fault of the Russians whatever evidence were produced.

And some will believe it for many, many years. It's not surprising in this case. "Government" left it all to the Russians, claimed that cooperation with Russians is excellent and It turned out to be ******, claimed that all the bodies were perfectly identified and it turned out that pieaces of different bodies were mixed together and put into coffines like that, blamed it all on the pilots from day one when in fact it was a matter of incorrect training/supervision/procedures etc. insinuated "preassure" when there was not any, Georgia was a totally different case... So now many people will not believe in anything official institutions are saying about this airplane crash.

Either Tusk is totally impotent and shouldn't run anything more serious than a village shop or he is an evil man, who did it on purpose, so now he can position himself and his gang in opposition to "freaks, who believe that Kaczynski was killed by Russians".
pip 10 | 1,661    
29 Jul 2011  #28
Must admit, I'm going to trust the people who wrote the report over a bunch of politically motivated morons who would write anything to further their own agenda.

you don't think these people are influenced?
delphiandomine 85 | 17,470    
  29 Jul 2011  #29
Of course they are - heavily influenced by the fact that they want power and don't have it.

And some will believe it for many, many years.

And in doing so, condemn them and their kin to years of political wilderness.

Just watch - Smolensk will be forgotten about in mainstream politics by 2015. I guarantee it.

blamed it all on the pilots from day one when in fact it was a matter of incorrect training/supervision/procedures etc.

Anyone with any degree of knowledge about Polish aviation was pointing the finger at the Air Force from day 1. In fact - I seem to recall convex making a few posts about their behaviour post-Smolensk.

So now many people will not believe in anything official institutions are saying about this airplane crash.

They won't believe it because it's said by the Government that they blindly hate. If it was Jaroslaw Kaczynski in power, they'd believe whatever he says - poor, deluded, stupid people.

Either Tusk is totally impotent and shouldn't run anything more serious than a village shop or he is an evil man, who did it on purpose, so now he can position himself and his gang in opposition to "freaks, who believe that Kaczynski was killed by Russians".

Have you actually read the report? I have my doubts.

The thing is, you and your ilk are so blinded with rage at Tusk "taking away" power that you're willing to oppose absolutely everythng he says or does, just for the sake of opposition. That rage got only worse after the plane crashed - and now you're willing to call absolutely everyone "liars" and "unpatriotic" and so on - even when these are among the very top people in Polish society. It's childish and pathetic - and instead of giving the families closure with this report, you're instead choosing to scream LIES at the top of your voices, thus prolonging the agony for them.

Unpatriotic scum.

Anyway - remind us - who cancelled the simulator training?
OP pawian 144 | 7,546    
  29 Jul 2011  #30
=f stop]It's interesting that this is the one you put forth first, while the report lists 3 much more damaging causes first...

It is interesting you are more interested in the order than the content. Also, that you don`t know the rules of catching the reader`s/viewer`s attention. :):):):):)

No, elected by cartoonish people like you.

In democratic elections. Is you secret desire to abolish democracy in Poland and set up PiS dictatorship of Plastic Poles like you? :):):):)


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