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Dodgy PRL-holdover judiciary finally reformed


pawian 170 | 11,348
7 Feb 2020 #211
That`s a symbolic presentation of how PiS reforms the system: PiS nominated Chairman of Olsztyn Court is tearing the postulates written by his 31 subordinate judges. Good. It means the judges are not scared. They perfectly know such people as their chairman will be put on trial for their criminal acts one day.



pawian 170 | 11,348
7 Feb 2020 #212
The fight for independent judiciary goes on. More precise info: 31 judges in Olsztyn Regional court decided to appeal to their chairman to lift the suspension of their colleague. 2 judges were against the appeal, 4 abstained from voting. Can you imagine it? 31 against 6. That is why I am so hopeful about the future - if most courts and judges in Poland act so decently, we are saved. PiS can go to hell and there reform the devilish judiciary. :)

The latest news: EU is planning to punish PiS government with 2 million e fine a day for keeping their illegal Disciplinary Chamber working. One day is enough to sue all PiS politicians who led to this situation for causing financial losses to the state`s assets. The list of culprits will be quite long. I can`t wait... :))
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Feb 2020 #213
More precise info: 31 judges in Olsztyn Regional court decided

Should just lock them up or fire them on the spot. It is getting ridiculous.

No, it's not the way it works in democratic countries.

You know nothing about anything, big mouth.
pawian 170 | 11,348
8 Feb 2020 #214
Should just lock them up or fire them on the spot. It is getting ridiculous.

You know they can`t lock up or execute most independently thinking judges in Poland. They would lose all next elections in result. That is why I am so optimistic about PiS deform. It is going to fail with a big bang and all culprits will be prosecuted. I can`t wait. :)
Lenka 3 | 1,966
8 Feb 2020 #215
By now they would have to lock what 90 judges at least? Would have been interesting:)
mafketis 23 | 8,401
8 Feb 2020 #216
You know they can`t lock up or execute most independently thinking judges in Poland

He doesn't want Poland to be a 'państwo prawa', he wants a 'państwo partii'....
pawian 170 | 11,348
8 Feb 2020 #217
such people as their chairman will be put on trial for their criminal acts one day.

Why? Destroying official documents is a crime. Ha! This man is finished. He will cease being not only a chairman of court but also a judge and lawyer.

I really don`t understand certain people who seem to really believe in 1000 years old PiS Reich.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Feb 2020 #218
You know they can`t lock up or execute most independently thinking judges in Poland.

If they lock up 100 to 200 top a-holes that would settle the issue. If anyone has a problem with it they can quit and got fired. Problem solved. Now a real issue, a new organization of judiciary system - a one that actually works.

Why they cannot? Cause they have agreement - we won't 'touch' your people and you won't 'touch' ours? If so you can wait till your die from a old age.

By now they would have to lock what 90 judges at least?

That is a drop in the ocean. Not a problem. Can be done in the nick of time.

He doesn't want Poland to be

I don't think you understand as much as you claim you do.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
8 Feb 2020 #219
If they lock up 100 to 200 top a-holes that would settle the issue

You really are a communist, aren't you?

Certainly the idea of locking up people over contradicting the will of the Party is from the worst days of Stalinism.
Lenka 3 | 1,966
8 Feb 2020 #220
That is a drop in the ocean. Not a problem. Can be done in the nick of time

You do realise we are basically talking the whole Supreme Court here?
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Feb 2020 #221
the whole Supreme Court here?

Supreme pigsty more like, get away with the system and lock up or fire people for trying to overthrows a legal democratically elected gov by the illegal means.

One or the other has to give. Either a bunch of stuck up corrupt cronies or any resembles of a functioning state . I know what I would rather have, You take your pick.

the idea of locking up people over c

or fire them on the spot whichever is more efficient. What? are you telling me that if any authorities in Scotland would have acted up as their make the rules (beside parliament) they wouldn't be kicked out in two sec max?

By the way I'm not effected by you calling me a communist. I just find it ridiculous as IF not other forms of government would lock up or fire people who practically rebelled against a country legal gov. Don't be silly.
Lenka 3 | 1,966
8 Feb 2020 #222
fire people for trying to overthrows a legal democratically elected gov

Wow- when and how did that happen?
pawian 170 | 11,348
8 Feb 2020 #223
I just find it ridiculous as IF not other forms of government would lock up or fire people who practically rebelled against country legal gov.

The problem is the PiS government is making a neo bolshevik revolution in order to grab the whole power. I am really amazed you don`t realise simple facts. Today they are oppressing independent judges, tomorrow, if not stopped, they will oppress other independent people, also your beloved Konfederacja. Don`t you really know it from history of nations? Even if the Konfederacja candidate wins huge support one day, it will be ignored by PiS coz all the power will be theirs. "We need to repeat that voting." Do you remember who said it recently?

So, you need to understand, today judges are fighting for their freedom and ours.
The case is lost for PiS. This way or another, next year or in ten years` time, they will be taken to court to answer for their deeds. They know it and that is why they are thrashing around so desperately.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Feb 2020 #224
Wow- when and how did that happen?

Questioning legality and contesting/ignoring bills and acts of a government that is a rebellion or a pandemonium as a stage one to it. They don't even hide it. They act in concert with MEP's from Poland who call for the EU intervention.

Rebellion, treason and what have you - it is clear. The only issue they don't have real support in the society and they are perceived as clowns. That is the only reason you think it is not serious. Rebellion doesn't means only so armed rebellion.

he problem is the PiS government is making a neo bolshevik revolution in order to grab the whole power

That is your take on things. You can't call for foreign intervention, rebellion. revolt what have you just based on your gut feelings and your perception - it anarchy,.

You wait for an election and win it. Calling acts of a legal gov, that has been elected in democratic election a revolution doesn't cut it.

illegal acts are treason and should be outrooted harshly by the state.

IF the times comes they will do what you claim they will. We will talk then. you don't call for an open revolt because they MIGHT do something in the future. That nuts and treasons. Putin just love it and send you money.

will be taken to court to answer for their deeds.

Sure in your dream they will. I told you nobody has answered for anything for the last 30 years in Poland if not longer. I just want to see that happening.
pawian 170 | 11,348
8 Feb 2020 #225
IF the times comes they will do what you claim they will. We will talk then

Nope, then it will be too late. You should also know it from the history of nations. Those who procrastinated with dealing with rogues in due time, were finally liquidated by those rogues.

you don't call for an open revolt because they MIGHT do something in the future.

Yes, we should and we do. After tragic results of communism and fascism gaining full power in various countries, people prefer to be on the safe side. That is why propagating communism and fascism is illegal in Poland. One day propagating PiSism should be also banned coz it is a very harmful system eroding the existential essence of a democratic country. :)

I just want to see that happening.

Let`s hope we will reach that time in good health. I wish it to you and myself and all other members of the PF. Health is the most important thing in our age. :))
Lenka 3 | 1,966
8 Feb 2020 #226
Questioning legality and contesting/ignoring bills and acts of a government

No, that is rule of law. That is what those institutions have been set up to do. And it's their job to rule whether something was legal or not! There's been many, many times when acts/bills were rulled unlawful.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Feb 2020 #227
No, that is rule of law.

You don't know what the rule of law is. That is the problem.
Short lesson for you :
What lawful and what legal is decided in the parliament. Courts only are there to implement it . They don't go about saying which act and what bill is OK or not OK.

There's been many, many times when acts/bills were rulled unlawful.

You are relay confused - you talk about Trybunal Konstytucyjny not Supreme court two different organizations.

Yes, we should and we do.

Not your call and not your right. You should be locked up. That is certain.
pawian 170 | 11,348
8 Feb 2020 #228
You don't know what the rule of law is. Short lesson for you : What lawful and what legal is decided in the parliament.

Sorry but it is you who don`t know that in every democratic country there is a division of power between 3 entities. And the judiciary is one of them. PiS is trying to grab everything for themselves, but they will fail. You know about it and they too.

That is why, please.......

You should be locked up.

....... relax. :)). Stay calm, like me and Lenka. :))

PS. If I am locked up, you will be, too. We will have a lot of time to discuss politics in one cell. How do you like the idea? hahaha
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Feb 2020 #229
now that in every democratic country there is a division of power between 3 entities.

BS!
pawian 170 | 11,348
8 Feb 2020 #230
Aaah. So you refuse to acknowledge that these three branches: legislature, executive, and judiciary are the pillars of democracy. It means you promote dictatorship.
Sorry, we have different goals, then. I am pro democratic coz, despite all its irritating flaws, democracy is certainly better that dictatorship.
Lenka 3 | 1,966
8 Feb 2020 #231
@Iron
Sąd Najwyższy działa na podstawie Konstytucji Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej i ustawy o Sądzie Najwyższym[1]. Nie należy on do sądownictwa powszechnego

Jest on powołany do:
6 opiniowania ustaw i innych aktów normatywnych na podstawie których orzekają i funkcjonują sądy, a także innych ustaw w zakresie, w jakim uzna to za celowe;

Rough summary- The Supreme Court is funded to judge acts and bills that impact the way courts are functioning
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Feb 2020 #232
@Iron

Summary : You quote some vague general sentence to back up silly claims and dealing by some shady people and their cronies. They cannot usurp that right and put themslefses higher than parliament, government and a law. That is the short and long of it. You reading into that sentence too much.

aah.

bah ! WTF is wrong with you?

t these three branches: legislature, executive, and judiciary are the pillars of democrac

What are yo babbling about? Some theory, or rather some chosen extract from a theoretical work? What it has to do with anything? Are you claiming that now in Poland there is not such a division and before PiS there was? If so you are telling nonsense.

Other than that I don't see what your argument is. You yap about some highly theoretical issue that do not apply to the reality or circumstances in Poland and you want to derive some conclusion out of it? You're making a mess here.

Just make a proper argument if you are able to. So far you flip about slogans.
Lenka 3 | 1,966
8 Feb 2020 #233
You quote some vague general sentence to back up silly claims and dealing by some shady people and their cronies

And you do nothing besides saying 'I don't like what they did'.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Feb 2020 #234
here = once more just for you :
They cannot put themslefses higher than parliament, government and a law. They are try to usurp that right just to defend their own personal positions. Using the law as their tool. Interpreting constitution is not their prerogative .
pawian 170 | 11,348
8 Feb 2020 #235
They cannot usurp that right and put themslefses higher than parliament, government and a law

It seems you don`t know what you are talking about as you are mixing different things now. It is PiS government and parliament which break the law. The judges, on top with Supreme Court, defend the law against maniacs and political gangsters. Remember the scandal with PiS` attempts to dismiss judges over 65? They had to withdraw from it as it was an illegal move. PiS created erroneous law and counted it would be accepted by those who are bound to keep to law.

bah ! WTF is wrong with you?

Nothing. Why are you so excitable? :):)

Other than that I don't see what your argument is.

Because you don`t want to. The case is clear - you are an aficionado of dictators like Franco or Pinochet and the systems they created and led for decades. If so, we will never find common ground in our discussion coz I reject them wholeheartedly.

Just make a proper argument if you are able to.

Those silly incantations won`t help you. You are losing the debate and you know it. :):)
Lenka 3 | 1,966
8 Feb 2020 #236
They cannot put themslefses higher than parliament, government and a law.

They have to if the government is braking the law. The government cannot do certain things. And as I shown part of judging such bills falls under the Supreme Court prerogative.
pawian 170 | 11,348
8 Feb 2020 #237
This way or another, they will have to back off again coz the EU is seriously worried the virus of PIS lack of respect for law might spread to other countries. Not only will the EU impose 2 million fine per day but also suspend funds, including those for farmers. This will cost PiS the lost elections sooner or later. If they try to rig election results to their advantage, Poland will be suspended totally and people will tear PiS apart.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
8 Feb 2020 #238
The judges, on top with Supreme Court, defend the law

That is not their job. They have no say, they have no right to veto and they have no right to comment on the constitution. It doesn't make any sense and it wouldn't be tolerated in any country. I get it they don't like PiS and you agree with them but what they doing is totally reprehensible and cannot be defended at all. They should be fired and if they don't acknowledge it they should be put behind the bars.

It is PiS government and parliament which break the law.

That is not their call. They are not competent to make such a judgment, they are out of line. Your line of argument is rubbish, you spew BS and more BS. Defending something that cannot be defended.

Because you don`t want to

Not at all. Because you don't make any argument you're spewing slogans like those dictators you mentioned. Demagogy and platitudes. I haven't seen a single argument that make any sense. Except that PiS is bad and is breaking the law. Sue them you dumb a-hole.

They have to if the government is braking the law

lenka what you said is just a pure nonsense. It doesn't work that way anywhere and never was.
How is that gonna work? People self-elect themslefses to rights the wrongs.
Meaning you can do it too. Why not? You think your pay is not enough, you go to your employer and order him to pay you more ... If you see a policeman giving a ticket to a driver and in your opinion that driver don't deserve it, you can just tell that policeman to shove it and to that driver dude not to pay it.

That is a pure anarchy.
A state doesn't work that way. People connote self-elect to do decree about issues that have no jurisdiction over and they have no right to decide what parliament bills are wrong and which are OK.

the Parliament is the highest lawgiver in the county and is judged by the people in an election. IF anybody claims different he is either a moron or is lying to you people.

Wake up people, WTF is wrong with you?

Not only will the EU impose

The EU can go F themslefses. the Government should have told them that a long time ago.
pawian 170 | 11,348
8 Feb 2020 #239
They have no say, they have no right to veto and they have no right to comment on the constitution.

Are you serious now? Coz what you say is not even Franco or Pinochet, but Hitler and Stalin style of government. Come on, spare us this crap. :)

Defending something that cannot be defended.

Of course it can, is and will be defended. Stop silly incantations, they are useless.

Because you don't make any argument

I am offering you arguments one by one but you pretend not to understand them. Yours is an infantile way of running a debate, you do realise it.

Sue them you dumb a-hole.

Darling, keep your composure. :):) Nobody is offending you so far, so you don`t need to show how hurt you are coz you are losing the debate. Ha!

Wake up people, WTF is wrong with you?

We should ask you the same question, darling. :):)

The EU can go F themslefses.

Aren`t you able to talk like a man to the end, not like a spoilt child who got hurt by opposition from his parents? hahaha It is very unprofessional of you.
gumishu 11 | 5,191
9 Feb 2020 #240
They have to if the government is braking the law.

how is the government actually breaking the law

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