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Dodgy PRL-holdover judiciary finally reformed


gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #241
That`s a symbolic presentation of how PiS reforms the system

do you realize that the rabidness of the likes of you can lead to a civil war?
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #242
oh la la you are riding high now. hahaha. It reminds me of communists who also used to warn the society of civil war provoked by Solidarity in 1981. According to communist propaganda, it was one of the main reasons to introduce martial law in December 1981 and crush independent movement.

Why are you resorting to communist methods, please? Coz PiS and their supporters are neo bolsheviks? hahaha

Besides, how can one who defends sth good be rabid? It is PiS who are rabid. You mixed the victim with the perpetrator now. But you did it on purpose, to degrade the victim. That`s another communist method - AK, zapluty karzeł reakcji.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #243
Why are you resorting to communist methods, please?

can you see martial law looming? I don't - but I understand rabid or hysterical people have their imaginations slightly off
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #244
can you see martial law looming? I don't

Stop twisting now. I wasn`t talking about it, I meant your dirty communist propaganda methods. Why are all PiS men such liars and manipulators? hahaha
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #245
you are actually the only member of this forum who calls the PiS goverment criminal - this is why I call you rabid
delphiandomine 83 | 17,905
9 Feb 2020 #246
how is the government actually breaking the law

Law is not only what gets published in the Journal of Laws.

Gumishu, let's put it another way. You mentioned before that you live in/next to the forest. The local PiS man comes and decides that your house would make an ideal cabin for his daughter, so he brings a lawsuit using faked documents to prove that your house actually belongs to him.

The judge appointed to the case was appointed by PiS, and you lose the case quickly. Same happens with the appeal, and the Supreme Court (led by a PiS appointee) refuses you the chance to appeal there.

The court orders you to leave, enforced by the police. You complain to the PiS public prosecutor, who decides you have no case as it was all legal.

That's exactly what was happening in the PRL, and it's why independent judges are so important. The system isn't perfect, but having judges dependent on politicians is the worst possible outcome.

And please, don't tell "it won't happen to me" - that's the same thing that many other people believed before bad things happened. When it happens, you'll be the biggest supporter of the opposition, but it won't bring your house back.

Why do you think having one political party in control of the legal system is a good thing?
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #247
that you live in/next to the forest. The local PiS man comes and decides that your house would make an ideal cabin for his daughter,

no such thing ever happened in the times of PiS government - simples

as far as I know no such thing happened in PRL after Bierut as well

The system isn't perfect, but having judges dependent on politicians is the worst possible outcome.

first of all I am all for the American system where judges are elected directly by the public
- secondly when judges are an authority unto themselves this pretty soon leads to the rule of lawyers (as manifested to some degree in Poland) - I bet you understand that the rule of lawyers is not democracy

- also the European Union Tribunal (or whaterver it is called) is appointed by politician who currently rule in the countries in respect (for a term of course, however) - do you have qualms with that? - also PiS is by no means a totalitarian power but a democracy abiding party - if they behave like bullies they will be punished in the first election
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #248
The judge appointed to the case was appointed by PiS, and you lose the case quickly.

Yes, I tried to use the same rhetorics on them but those right wingers are completely impervious to logical arguments. They probably want to be like the black character from your story - they want to use PiS controlled judiciary to have personal gains and profits.

who calls the PiS goverment criminal -

But it is true. They broke the law several times and will answer for that. We don`t know everything yet but when they lose power, all their dirty machinations will be revealed. And as I said, there will be no mercy. The hydra of neo bolshevism must be burnt with hot iron to the very end. hahaha

no such thing ever happened in the times of PiS government - simples

But they will if PiS controls everything. Besides, such things are happening elsewhere. What about PiS accidents? How long have they been examining the evidence which, all of a sudden, got lost in case of Szydło accident from 2017? Two years?

Stop manipulating coz all decent people can see through it.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #249
The hydra of neo bolshevism must be burnt with hot iron to the very end. hahaha

as I said - you are an extremist - I call you rabid for simplicity

by the way: what laws did PiS break - please give a couple of examples

But they will if PiS controls everything.

maybe PiS will control all institutions - but they are a democratic party and run elections and there is no change to that in sight unless you are rabid or hysterical
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #250
hahaha is it your new mantra? Do you always adopt such on Sunday mornings? Always the same or you change it from time to time?

Gumi, give up on that hystery of yours, anger badly affects your beauty. hahaha
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #251
I have long ago resigned to the fact that I'm ugly :P

also you try do detract from the gist of the matter - and the gist of the matter is that PiS is a democratic and democracy respecting party as shown by their past decisions and every sane person is able to determine it
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #252
by the way: what laws did PiS break - please give a couple of examples

Really must I remind you about them? You don`t remember? Of course, PiS men always deny anything. They do nothing wrong, it is the opposition and the EU which harass innocent PiS. Baranki, psiakrew... hahaha

I have long ago resigned to the fact that I'm ugly :P

But even ugly, you can be prettier than very ugly on condition you relax.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #253
Really must I remind you about them?

please remind me - you said they broke the law a couple of times - it must be easy to name all of them
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #254
E.g., they broke Polish and European law when they tried to remove legally appointed judges claiming they are too old. PiS was forced to withdraw from it and so they did.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #255
E.g., they broke Polish and European law when they tried to remove legally appointed judges claiming they are too old.

the European treaties give the member states the right to organize their judiciaries - that's one

two - Polish constitution states that the organization of the Supreme Court is defined by a parliament bill - and PiS just changed the bill simples - judges were bound to retire by previous laws as well - PiS just changed the retirement age

any more examples?

PiS was forced to withdraw from it and so they did.

PiS was not forced to withdraw it - but realised that it was a fight too much for one year - but now judges went for a counteroffensive which can lead to judiciary anarchy in Poland
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #256
PiS just changed the retirement age

hahaha yes, that is a reform by PiS. Change the law in the middle of the term and dismiss anybody who suits. Then PiS is gravely amazed when law abiding institutions and decent citizens call it a scam. It is pathetic you support such illegal solutions.

but now judges went for a counteroffensive which can lead to judiciary anarchy in Poland

As a neo bolshevik, you should call it counter revolution. hahaha

No, it isn`t one, it is only the defence of law which is laid down in the current constitution
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #257
the European treaties give the member states the right to organize their judiciaries - that's one

No, that`s one is that I said POLISH and European law. Stop manipulating again.

any more examples?

You really think we have run out of examples? Don`t be naive , the list is very long.

Funniest that PiS also breaks its own law. E.g., Piotrowicz and Pawłowicz who were nominated to the Constitutional Tribunal are both older than 65, which was the retirement age for Supreme Court judges introduced by PiS itself. Ha!

What about haters scandal? Judges appointed by PiS ran a hateful campaign on the Internet against independent judges. The culprits are hidden by PiS now, but still take their salaries.

Look, there are many more, I dont` have time to mention all of them, this forum isn`t the only one I attend, you are not so important as to devote so much time to you and correct your neo bolshevik views. I have really better things on my mind.

You prefer to play stupid pretending you don`t know. All these things have been also discussed in the forum at the time of their happening, so stop your false pretence. :)

It is enough to read this site run in a very professional English by professionals who oppose PiS and will do it till complete victory. :):)

ruleoflaw.pl/

This and other sites.

Neobolsheviks won`t win!



gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #258
No, it isn`t one, it is only the defence of law which is laid down in the current constitution

constitution doesn't say anything on how the Supreme Court should look like - it grants the parliament the right to shape it - and PiS did just that?

in case you had doubts here's a quote in Polish : Dwa wyroki Trybunału Konstytucyjnego - z 1998 r. i 2014 r. - wykazały, że zgodnym z Konstytucją RP jest wyznaczanie przez parlament wieku przejścia w stan spoczynku sędziów, jak i obniżanie tego wieku. Wyrok z 2014 r. wydał skład sędziowski pod przewodnictwem prof. Andrzeja Rzeplińskiego, który teraz krytykuje reformę sądownictwa.

any more examples of how PiS broke the law?
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #259
As I said before: You prefer to play stupid, pretending you don`t know. All these things have been also discussed in the forum at the time of their happening, so stop your false pretence. :)

Dwa wyroki Trybunału Konstytucyjnego - - wykazały, że zgodnym z Konstytucją RP jest wyznaczanie przez parlament wieku przejścia w stan spoczynku sędziów,

Hey, can you translate this Polish into English? Or at least give a summary of what you quote? This is an English forum and we speak English and we are read by English users.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #260
As I said before

You said PiS broke the law a couple of times - and I said it's probably easy to name a couple of them - but so far you haven't given any
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #261
Dwa wyroki Trybunału Konstytucyjnego - wykazały, że zgodnym z Konstytucją RP jest wyznaczanie przez parlament wieku przejścia w stan spoczynku sędziów

No , it isn`t in accordance with the Constitution which states: Judges are irremovable. Paragraph 180, my dear gumi.
arslege.pl/zasada-nieusuwalnosci-sedziego/k15/a5415/
HA!

Besides, was the EU wrong when they pointed to the illegality of that move? They also have their paragraphs and Poland is obliged to stick to them. Or you want Poland out of the EU? Be sincere now....... :))

by lowering the retirement age of the judges appointed to the Sąd Najwyższy (Supreme Court, Poland) and by applying that measure to the judges in post appointed to that court before 3 April 2018 and, secondly, by granting the President of the Republic the discretion to extend the period of judicial activity of judges of that court beyond the newly fixed retirement age, the Republic of Poland has failed to fulfil its obligations under the combined provisions of the second subparagraph of Article 19(1) TEU and Article 47 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union ('the Charter').

curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=215341&doclang=EN

I said it's probably easy to name a couple of them - but so far you haven't given any

hahaha twisting and playing stupid, again. That`s how a discussion with a rightwinger look like. :):)
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #262
you asked for a translation -here you are - I wanted to do it quick and I never claimed here that my English is fluent

Two verdicts by the Constitutional Tribunal - from 1998 and 2014 have established that it is lawful under the constitution for parliament to set a retirement age for judges, including lowering of the retirement age. The verdict from 2014 was given by a the Constitutional Tribunal under prof. Rzepliński, who now opposes the judiciary reforms.
pawian 168 | 11,113
9 Feb 2020 #263
I wanted to do it quick a

Yes, too quick. Thanks, and stick to this rule in the future coz not only Poles read this thread.

PS. I replied to it above.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #264
Paragraph 180, my dear gumi.

the practice was that judges were moved into retirement after reaching the retirement age (stan spoczynku) - so either this article was being broken throughout the history of democratic Poland or that the article conflicts both with what other constitution articles state and with what the Constitutional Tribunal said about the issue - and you know Constitutional Tribunal has the final say of what laws are binding according to the constitution (not you)

as for the European Law - please quote the laws the European Court of Justice or whatever it is called cited in their verdict - also even if it is so then the laws of the EU are conflicted on the matter

by the way: by the ruling of German Constitutional Tribunal all internal German laws have a precedence over European laws - interesting no?
Ironside 49 | 10,099
9 Feb 2020 #265
their imaginations slightly off

Their are loonies. I wouldn't mind them but they are actually rebid loons and out there to do as much harm as possible.
Lenka 3 | 1,750
9 Feb 2020 #266
PiS broke the law a couple of times

So what was it with the extra judges for TK? What is with hidding the KRS support lists?
Ironside 49 | 10,099
9 Feb 2020 #267
It reminds me of communists

We are not responsible for your senile obsessions.

Coz PiS and their supporters are neo bolsheviks? hahaha

No, they are sanacja 2. If we use your senile obsessive terminology.
You and your ilk are soviet left-overs. Rabid old men with the illusion of being an elite.

The hydra of neo bolshevism must be burnt with hot iron to the very end. hahaha

Hmm I agree but you are mistaken if you think that you are hot iron, you are that old mold that had be burn out. You don't even know that hence you're doomed.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,905
9 Feb 2020 #268
So what was it with the extra judges for TK?

Or what was it with failing to publish the legally binding judgement of the TK in the first place?

Gumishu, what would you say if PO did the same as PiS are doing? Would you be appalled and outraged by them filling the Constitutional Tribunal with their cronies, including the Communist prosecutor Piotrowicz?
Ironside 49 | 10,099
9 Feb 2020 #269
How is that illegal?

with failing to publish the legally binding judgement of the TK in the first place?

All previous governments are guilty of those, so why pick on PiS only?

if PO did the same as PiS are doing?

why? They did it. Don't tell me you don't know it/ How is your Polish then? in the bud?
gumishu 11 | 5,142
9 Feb 2020 #270
What is with hidding the KRS support lists?

the KRS support lists have been disclosed recently - what do you mean by extra judges?

during the first PiS (plus coalition) government the lustration (vetting) bill was deemed unconstitutional by the contemporanous Trybunał Konstytucyjny based on the article 2, 65 and 31 of the constitution - go and see what those articles state - I hope you will understand how partisan (or corrupt) that body was -

Or what was it with failing to publish the legally binding judgement of the TK in the first place?

the judgement was not a judgement because the bill on the structure and the proceedings of the TK has been changed and according to the then binding bill it was not a verdict of the Tribunal (for formal reasons)

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