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Dodgy PRL-holdover judiciary finally reformed



Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #1

Poland's Sejm have passed legislation reforming the country's clique-ridden ineffective and oft-corrupt judiciary with many PRL- hold-overs still serving as judges. Predictably, the "total opposition" has called it a coup d'état and has shifted its foreign-snitching machine into top gear. European Commissioner Moscoviic, tkaing his cues frorm the Michnik mafia and the Schcvetyna-Petru gang, has criticsed the reforms. But that is par for the course. Throughout the Polish-Polish war the EU as well as most Western media and governments accepted the opposition side of the story as gospel truth, even though the Polish nation favours the present government and its policies. People avoided going to court if they could because they knew they could not count on fair, punctual and effective handling of their cases. Judicial reform was one of PiS' campaign promises and the good-change government has been fulfilling them one by one. The role of government is to serve the nation, not the sons of Soviet spies (Michnik) or overpaid Brusselcrats.


Harry 76 | 13,341    
14 Jul 2017  #2

the "total oppstion"

Might one inquire as to who you are quoting there?

People avoided going to court if they could becuase they knew they could not count on fair, punctual and effective handling of their cases.

Might one ask for some sort of proof to support that statement? Or are you simply yet again faithfully trotting out the Party line which you've just heard on Radio Maybach.

There's an excellent summary of the situation on the cover of Dziennik Gazeta Prawna. The caption reads "The three branches of government":

DGP
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #3

for some sort of proof t

The best proof are not biased media but the Polish people, ordinary citizens. Talk to anybody who has had to deal with Poland's lackadaisacal and oft-corrupt judges and they'll tell you like it is. But unfortunately for you, you'd have to leave your expat cocoon and speak fluent Polish to gain their confidence. They may be less than frank if they suspect you are from the beeb, AP, Reuters, AFP, DPA or suchlike. Radio Maybach I never listen to because I never listen to any radio. Haven't you checked out my car during your latest side-snoop from the Breakfast Fair area?
Sparks11 - | 247    
14 Jul 2017  #4

i hope this finally mobilizes brussels to take decisive action.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #5

"The three branches of government"

Precisely, that is the man who can assure it. Up till now, the courts, judges and their barrister sidekicks had constituted an untouchable corporate mafia, a state within a state, answerable only to themselves. PO court jesters such as Bogdan Budka, the defunct PO regime's foremr justice min., has reacted with nonsesne that really takes he biscuit, He claims the reform would mean the Supreme Court, which is charged with confirming election results, could invalidate them if PiS were to lose.

But PiS MP Marcin Horała explained that the reform would guarantee the separation of powers and ensure a system of checks and balances. PiS said the broad-reaching changes would effectively create a new Supreme Court in which onl highly qualified and ethical indiviudals people could become judges and that the court would "enjoy more authority and the trust of citizens. Average Poles have criticised Polish courts for taking too long to hear cases, and have accused judges of being an elite, self-serving clique often out of touch with the problems of ordinary citizens.
jon357 63 | 12,072    
14 Jul 2017  #6

Basically a seedy midnight action by the junta. One that puts the judiciary under party control, and which commentators have described as the prelude to a coup d'etat.

Up till now, the courts, judges and their barrister sidekicks

Meaning an independent judiciary, rather than the dodgy Soviet-style system that the PiS junta want.

Poland's Sejm have passed legislation

In the middle of the night, even.
mafketis 16 | 4,508    
14 Jul 2017  #7

He claims the reform would mean the Supreme Court, which is charged with confirming election results, could invalidate them if PiS were to lose.

That's probably the best single explanation for the changes. To facilitate rule by party chairman for life JK

Talk to anybody who has had to deal with Poland's lackadaisacal and oft-corrupt judges and they'll tell you

Do you tell them that you're not even Polish and you don't even pay taxes in Poland?
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #8

Meaning an independent judiciary,

If to you an independent judiciary means aloof, elitist and often corrupt judges out of tune with the needs of the Polish people, PRL-holdovers still serving as judges in an allegedy "free" Poland, sluggish and ineffective judicial machinery working

hand in hand with shady lawyers, then one can only feel sorry for you.
Tag-team back on track, eh? First the hairy guru and then his obedient disciples! One hears that Mayfixit wants to join in hte worst way. But are non-UK-ers even admitted?
mafketis 16 | 4,508    
14 Jul 2017  #9

One hears that Mayfixit wants to join in hte worst way. But are non-UK-ers even admitted?

Actually the only real criteria are a Polish passport or tax bill (putting your money where your big mouth is).

Absent either, your rah rahing the systematic destruction of the rule of law is morally despicable.
jon357 63 | 12,072    
14 Jul 2017  #10

the needs of the Polish peopl

If you think that the 'needs of the Polish people' is a non-independent judiciary directly under the political control of one party, then there is really no hope for you.

Thee is however hope for Poland. This situation has occurred in the past, between 1939-1945 and 1948-1989. Both times, the problem was overcome.

tax bill

If someone is illegally evading tax in Poland, tax that funds schools, roads, children's homes, fire stations, elderly care, police etc, surely there is a moral responsibility for Polish citizens to alert the tax authorities in order that the person's responsibilities are fulfilled. It should be a pretty big outstanding bill now, plus relevant fines.
jgrabner 1 | 22    
14 Jul 2017  #11

There is no thing as a totally independent judicial system because that would be undemocratic. In all western democracies, the members of the supreme courts are appointed by elected bodies. In the USA, this is the president in combination with the senate. In Germany, for the highest civil and criminal court, it is a commission composed of the 16 regional ministers of justice and 16 members of parliament and for the constitutional court, it is parliament itself who elects the judges. In the US, ever lower court judges are political appointees.

Of course what follows is that if one party dominates the legislative chambers over a long time, the judiciary will follow suit. It is up to the electorate to decide if another party should have the chance to reshape the judiciary.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #12

rule of law

The rule of law was effectvely dismantled by the post-RT mafia in the 1990s and for some time the sugar-coated PR bamboozled quite a few people. You are apparently amongst the horse-blinkered who still have't seen through the ruse. It was all about the rule of an untouchable elite of ex-PRL types, political, SB and milititary holdovers, dodgy wheeler-dealers and propagandists that cretaed post-commie Poland whilst cleverly labelling it III RP.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #13

the only real criteria

Thanks but no thanks. The Limey Lounge or Brit Bully Tag-Team just ain't my cuppa!
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #14

ower court judges are political appointees

Let's not forget that some judges are elected democratically by voters at the polls. In the US in different localities other public officials such as sherrifs, coutny commissioners, bailiffs and municipal dog-catchers are popualry elected. True democracy, only in Switzerland and America!
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #15

judges are elected democratically

It seems 39 of hte 50 states elecet judges, including those to the State Supreme Court, not just low-ranking justices of the peace. Popularly elected judges are accountable to the public. Appointees must curry favour with those who appointed them -- politicians, some public institution or ad hoc body (often the real string-puller is the lobby bankrolling the operation).

It is up to the electorate to decide

Truer words were never spoken. But the oppositon and some wayward PF-ers believe it is the likes of Michnik, Schetyna, Kijowski and similar self-appointed "autorities" that should decide things, not the democratically elected Sejm and Senate.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #16

the problem was overcome

The problem of elitist cliques, corrupt judges not accountable to the nation, PRL holdovers, sluggish, lackadaisacal court proceedings, etc. has also been overcome this time by the good-change government that have scrupulously fulfilled their campaing promises. You'll notice only the dogdy judge cliques and their opposition protectors are raising a rumpus. The averag Jan Nowak is overjoyed that the crooks in togas will soon be sent to hell. That is the difference between self-serving poltical scamsters and governments that truly serve the people.
mafketis 16 | 4,508    
14 Jul 2017  #17

The problem of elitist cliques, corrupt judges not accountable to the nation, PRL holdovers, sluggish, lackadaisacal court proceedings, etc

Will not be solved by appointing a bunch of neo-nomenklatura party hacks!
Ziemowit 8 | 2,522    
14 Jul 2017  #18

The best proof are not biased media but the Polish people, ordinary citizens.

The caption in DGP (three branches of government) is actually very good and I can assure you that DGP is not "biased media". It is known, among other things, for the Rigamonti couple of journalist doing interviews for the paper every weekend and no one of their interlocutors has been spared so far, be it they came from PiS, PO or any other party. Thus some people refuse giving them interviews, although Ryszard Czarnecki (now PiS, formerly Samoobrona) was brave enough even if he constantly repeated 'I have been warned against you (Ostrzegano mnie przed Panią)' during the interview. If you or Harold ever gave them an interview, they would have no mercy (although they have style) over either of you. That's what good journalism is all about and that's why it differs from yours (PiS) or Harry's (PO) rather primitive propaganda regularly exercised on the PolishForums.

Fairly recently, Rafał Ziemkiewicz, a very well-known right-wing journalist, author and truly fervent supporter of PiS has started to warn against changes that PiS is making to the judiciary system in Poland. You may retrieve that article somewhere on the wp.pl site (if I remember correctly).
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #19

neo-nomenklatura

The neo-nomenklatura stronghold as you well know is PO. 30 of theri MPs are ex-PZPR members or TWs.PiS have only the one Piotrowicz but he seems to have truly reformed.
mafketis 16 | 4,508    
14 Jul 2017  #20

The neo-nomenklatura stronghold as you well know is PO

No, neo- means 'new' PiS is creating a new nomenklatura and you're in favor of that. Let that sink in.
jon357 63 | 12,072    
14 Jul 2017  #21

No, neo- means 'new' PiS is creating a new nomenklatura and you're in favor of tha

This is exactly what they want, what they planned, what they are trying to do and exactly what post-war Poland's worst president, Lech Kaczynski, meant when he said "teraz kurwa my" ("now it's our f*cking turn").

Hopefully our European Union and other relevant bodies will intervene much more stonglynthanthey have so far to uphold the disappearing rule of law in Poland.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #22

disappearing rule

It began disappearing in the backrooms of Magdalenka, By 2015 it was completely gone and Poles were living in post-commie scamster clique state. Only now is more and more evidence accumulating that shows what a big sham it was. Clever slogans, political niceties and other crafty ruses to rule above people's heads. Ambergold, OLT money laudnering, Warsaw restitution scam, the billions that vanished in various dodgy VAT schemes, the Corrupt Judges Association and more irregularities can be expected to surface any day. You can chant "rule of law" 2000 times a day, but that will not erase the quarter-century of shame, disgrace and gross misrule.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
14 Jul 2017  #23

Hopefully our European Union and other relevant bodies

By relevant bodies do you mean the Bundeswehr? Knowing youtr abject hatred for the real Catholic Poland and admiraton for the great "patriots" of Targowica who also appealed for outside "assistance", that would surprise no-one. The former advantages and priivleges of the fallen elites must be restored at all costs, innit?
jon357 63 | 12,072    
14 Jul 2017  #24

It's there in black and white spelt out clearly in the post, no ambiguity, no room for misinterpretation deliberate or otherwise. Btw, google Godwin's Law.

youtr abject hatred for the real Catholic Poland

That would be the Poland I'm a citizen of and you aren't. Since you'd have to explain why you haven't paid a groszy in tax for years. That and the other thing...

The former advantages and priivleges of the fallen elites must be restored at all costs, innit?

Exactly what the PiS junta with their "tears kurwa my" mentality are trying to do. You of all people should be very worried.
Wulkan - | 3,198    
15 Jul 2017  #25

Since you'd have to explain why you haven't paid a groszy in tax for years.

Good that you paid a lot tax for a change, the government of my home country (PiS) needs a lot of your money for their fat salaries.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
15 Jul 2017  #26

new nomenklatura

Instead of all your badmouthing, cynical speculation, dodgy insinuations and general PiS-bashing, sit back and get the real info direct from the horse's mouth!

Polish Radio reported that the head of Poland's ruling conservatives on Friday defended plans for sweeping changes to the country's courts. The Law and Justice (PiS) government argues that changes are vital to reform what it claims is an inefficient and sometimes corrupt judicial system in Poland.

PiS leader Jarosław Kaczyński told reporters on Friday that the Polish judiciary "suffers from two serious illnesses: the first is the collapse of moral principles, professional morality, general morality.

"The second issue is huge inefficiency, delays in cases, which cause many people to suffer in different ways."
Ordianry Poles have criticised Polish courts for taking too long to hear cases, and have accused judges of being an elite, self-serving clique often out of touch with the problems of ordinary citizens. A PiS-backed bill on the National Council of the Judiciary (KRS), a constitutional body tasked with safeguarding the independence of courts and judges, would see the terms of 15 of its members who are judges phased out, and their replacements selected by parliament -- not by other legal professionals, as is currently the case.

A second bill would change the way that heads of district and appeals courts are appointed, making the justice minister solely responsible for such decisions.

Meanwhile, other planned changes would introduce new rules for appointing Supreme Court judges. Current judges of the court could be retired under a PiS-backed bill.
Harry 76 | 13,341    
15 Jul 2017  #27

Polish Radio reported

Nice of you to finally admit you do have a radio and you get your information from it.

get the real info direct from the horse's mouth!

The 'information' you post here after hearing it on Radio Maybach comes from the other end of the horse, just like the 'information' that used to be printed about Poland in the Podunk County Polish Pig Farmer's Gazette.

change the way that heads of district and appeals courts are appointed, making the justice minister solely responsible for such decisions.

Meaning that any judge who gives a verdict unfavourable for First Secretary Kaczynski can and will be replaced by a reliable judge, just as things were back in the PRL when First Secretary Kaczynski learned about law.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
15 Jul 2017  #28

finally admit you do have a radio

Hairy B. must be twins, because no one person could be that stupid! In his twisted mind I sit next to the radio with pen and notepad in hand or at a keyboard and scrupulously take dictation from what I hear!? In actuality, Polish Radio's website is one of the more balanced sources of information, routinely giving both sides of a story. It is therefore more fair-minded than TVP or any of the conservative weeklies and light-years away from the hate-mongers of GW, TVN and Newsweek. Check it out at: http://www.thenews.pl/1
jon357 63 | 12,072    
15 Jul 2017  #29

just as things were back in the PRL when First Secretary Kaczynski learned about law.

Exactly. Very significant that they did the second bill very sneakily at midnight. Shades of the PRL/USSR style 'midnight knock on the door', and these knocks on the door will I suspect happen very soon.

the government of my home country (PiS) needs a lot of your money for their fat salaries.

Just as the government of my home country (UK) need its 20% of your small money to promote diversity.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,886    
15 Jul 2017  #30

promote diversity.

You like diversity, go to Calais or one of Belgium's no-go zones. Acording to Deutsche Welle, many tourists are staying away from Belgian seaside resorts. Fearing terrorism, Japanese, Australian and American sightseers are crossing Belgium off their European itineraries. Or maybe Germany. Angela Merkel has been warned she could face a lawless society in Germany if she does not tackle the rise of dangerous no-go zones where even the police are attacked. Except that there isn't much diversity in a Islamocracy and that's what the no-go zones are all about.




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