A devestating verdict on the Polish church

Restore some shreds of credibility? Szonuś, nobody gives a damn to gain credibility in the eyes of secular non-believers like you.

What does secularity have to do with it?? Non-believer, that's one of the funniest things I've heard!! I think you have me confused with sb else. Now, personal 'wayward' assessments aside, let's stay on track and see how they lack credibility. Why give to an institution which only now has begun to instigate reforms and implement measures which seek to curb laundering? My faith comes from within (a very deep one), a distant cry from those who want the latest model of Alfa Romeo, thank you very much!!

Pope John Paul I died only 33 days into his Pontificate (August 26, 1978 - September 28, 1978). Some say he was murdered by the mafia because he wanted to tackle the financial corruption and hypocrisy of the church.

There is a lot of money to be made through an institution like the church. The very fact that they believed he could get to the heart of the corruption dealings showed how much power they felt he had.

- Well, if they want to have respect and credibility they should take care of this, shouldn't they.
Besides, Bzibzioh (always wanted to know if that's your name or what?) If I understood you correctly, you are not being fair here: if you say that nobody gives a damn what secular non-believers think, then why the secular non-believers should take any interest in what the believers think? If so, then all religious symbols and national holidays and everything religious should be removed form public spaces etc. just to be fair and not promote any one religion, and keep to the constitution of Poland which says it is a secular country, not religious one. See, I'm not saying it should be done to such a major extent, but would be fair if we "didn't give a damn"...

Very good riposte, Olaf :) One of the best retorts to a biased and inaccurate post of a Plastic Pole. Food for thought indeed!

Well, lets have a vote on this one !

We have all read Yallop's books, another conspiracy theorist, next you will be telling us all about the albino monk...


That is exactly what they are doing, which part dont you understand.


This is a perfect example of a zero sum equation which came to fruition under Pol Pot. Evangelical atheists/agnostics always resort to this stupidity. Of course the state and Church should be separated, the state is not the arbiter of cultural identity or anything approaching it so saying that historical, religious symbols displayed in public are somehow representative of the state is just a lie, gross stupidity or Stalinism.


You can say exactly the same about National governments facilitating offshore banking.

National governments do not pretend to be pure.

At last sb said it :) :) Spot on, sobieski :)

Oh but they do ! at last that they are purer than opposition.......
On the other hand clergy doesn't pretend to be pure, where that silly idea coming from?

Clergy DO pretend to be pure, I-S. Politicians have a mandate and manifesto. The church merely has a moral obligation and where is their pact? Governments are directly accountable to the people but who can hold a wayward priest to account? Many are aware of their child pedo actions but little is done. A politician would be grilled for that.

No, Clergy dont pretend to be pure that would be blasphemous. According to all Christian churches the clergy are no purer or holier than you or I.


True they dont, what is your point?

well, something that I'm not aware of .....


really ?:D


people ?
surly you are a naive fellow .....:)

Barney, define pure please.

I-S, to się dowiedz ;)

Not the EU, no, but national governments

Naive? Why would you say so?

they do not pretend to be pure, quite the opposite


saying all this stuff as if you believed that it all works this way you described -I mean about a governments ...

Well I used it in the same context as you.

I still dont see where the clergy claim to be purer than others.

A couple of loose answers there, ok. If they are to be the intermediary between Man and God then they should be pure. If they were impure, how would they forgive those who had sinned? Why even have a church at all if I sin far less than they do?

Nothing loose about my answers, you brought the concept of pure to the thread I understood what you wrote and answered accordingly. If you are not sure of your own words don't expect others to explain them back to you.

I didn't say that the clergy are intermediaries between man and god I said that they are no purer than you or I as their bible tells them.

I repeat Christian clergy do not claim to be purer than others. I would like you to point to where you believe that they say they are purer than others.

Anyway I can spot two errors in what you wrote; an intermediary doesnt have to be pure and they dont forgive sins. I was talking about all Christians not just Catholics.

They occupy a certain position which places the utmost importance on moral standing. In order to forgive the sinful, you must be a morally upstanding person yourself. I'm very sure of my own words here.

Many don't live by proverbs and Godly wisdom but priests, knowing the Bible, have a duty to serve those that they take money from.

They seek to be revered and that involves projecting a pure image. This is not like a teacher who goes out with his students when seen to be an authority figure. I haven't seen a priest wellied yet.

Then tell the intermediary priest to get out of the remittance of sin business ;) ;) One strand calles it repentance, the other calls it penitence. I was talking about the RCC as being the main Catholic church.

You are confusing internal Catholic Church matter and external CC matter. Church's members may ask about finances, non-members may not. Celebrating religious holidays is part of social structure of any given country and part of religious freedoms, but not a church's "reward" for good behavior, like you are suggesting. Not to mention that not just Catholics celebrate them but also members of other Christian churches, like Orthodox or Protestant. So your argument is just ridiculous.


Doesn't take much to make you happy, conspiracy boy.

No, it doesn't work that way in the RCC!


What that gibberish is about ? Removing from public spaces everything religious is not as you try to persuade fair, but in reality is a very aggressive action against religion ! Anyone attempting such action should be put behind the bars as fukker he is ! Secular country means that states is no interfering into religious matters - thats all! And over-interpretation by some fukkers should be branded for what it really is - an anti-religious aggression !

I'll challenge that statement. Not a single priest I interact with believes they're pure.

A vote on changing constitution? Hah! There is a Trybunał Konstytucyjny - are you a member of it?


- What in the name of Dark Lord is an Evangelical atheist?


- No? They reserve the monopoly for saying what is right and pure and true. They are like modern fashion designers: you won't wear those clothes because they are unwearable, not practical and look like from outer space, only look interesting on a catwalk and not in everyday live. But still they determine the trends! Look down at the pic.



Not confusing anything. And not only members can ask since every tax payer's money goes to RCC. I wrote this before - you don't have a choice. So one CAN ask why and not like it.


- ...and this secular country sets and keeps the boundaries for any Church from interferring in matters not being religion's agenda.


WHERE is thie agression exactly?


apocalypsecartoons.com/fathertucker/fathertucker.html


Not all of them, they celebrate the ones common, The onec not supported by RCC are not holidays.


- YOh, because one needs to be reminded about their duties to their faith at each step? Does the faith need to be promoted this way and be reminded of? Is it that effervescent that if you don't put a cross or mount giant screaming loudspeakers OUTSIDE a church to wake up all neighbourhood, people will forget that they are supposed to follow?

• 
  Ain't that practical?
  

BS and you interpretation sucks !

Bzibby, you can attach labels but they are merely dismissive. Official lines tend to be more full of crap.

Babinich, that's what happens when you only know one priest ;)

Then they are no better than you or I so why would I go to a priest when I know what Jesus died for us all? Maybe some reading on sanctification and justification is in order for some people.

Whether you believe in the sacrament of confession is irrelevant.

Your statement was that clergy pretend to be pure. The priests I know do not believe themselves to be pure.

The polish church thinks it is pure. Good example..The episcopate last week announced that it "allowed" people to celebrate Sylwester, what with being it on a Friday. The arrogance. I wonder what they were doing 31-12?

Could they not concentrate themselves on eliminating Radio Marija and other worthwhile causes?

Didn't those Jesuits teach you anything ?