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Achievements of the Tusk's Polish government


delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
17 May 2011 #181
You are missing the point. I didn't ask people to describe dynamic of the Polish economy (which isn't bad compared to average in Europe, however there are very serious threats) I asked what Tusk and his government has done to improve things in Poland.

In general, Tusk's achievement has been to promote Poland as an island of stability - a kind of Germany-lite if you will. You can see this from the endless foreign commentaries about Poland - the country is seen as stable and somewhat reliable. That has helped Poland no end - especially after the laughing stock that was the PiS, SLD and AWS governments.

Sure, it's also brought in very bitter partisan politics that didn't exist so violently before - but it can be argued that a stable democracy should always have two main parties that hate each others guts.

As I've said until I'm sick in the face - the problem with PiS isn't their policies (really, not so much difference between them and PO) - but the way in which they'll use political power to abuse their political enemies - and that's what makes them unelectable.

Oh, and at least Tusk's party has never virulently attacked a dead bishop.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
17 May 2011 #182
especially after the laughing stock that was the PiS, SLD and AWS governments.

I don't recall AWS and SLD being a laughing stock. I actually lived in Poland during those times. Perhaps from the outside perspective they did?

On the other hand I can understand why people are fed up with the present government since the cost of living is going up and the services are still the same, or worse.

Frankly Polish people can buy less with their cash.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
17 May 2011 #183
Have you heard the term "world economic crisis"? Poland has been left almost untouched with it.
Have you compared Poland against other countries? Norway, The Most Civilized World's Country (at least for couple of years, according to United Nations): wages approximately six times higher than those in Poland but taxes eating good part of it, the car registration costing almost the same as the car value, an average small house in nice location costing $1 million, and panic in the real estate market.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
17 May 2011 #184
Have you heard the term "world economic crisis"?

please don't patronize me.

Poland has been left almost untouched with it.

are you sure? Most wages has been frozen in Poland, including private companies, who are not spending in case "crisis will reach Poland". It may reach it later then other countries.

Have you compared Poland against other countries?

I am discussing how Poles feel about the present government, not about how Poland compares to other countries, which btw is useless sine there will always be better then and worse then. So what.

I am looking at the quality of life the PLN can buy now and it could buy 8 yeas ago, when I left- that is a real indication for me, not some comparison to other countries;). In general the quality of life has gotten worse if we take into consideration how much I have to pay for it.

You are slightly off topic;D
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
17 May 2011 #185
I am discussing how Poles feel about the present government

Who are the "Poles"?
BTW, I cannot see where the topic limits participation in this thread.

The OP is asking PO supporters to list 5-10 Tusk government best achievements. Your comment is interpretation and putting your own sentiment into it.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
17 May 2011 #186
Who are the "Poles"?

obviously not you, but I have many friends and family members who pay their bills, run their businesses and they are struggling in Szczecin.

BTW, I cannot see where the topic limits participation in this thread.

I cannot see where it states that opinions/observations are not allowed on discussion forums.

Your comment is interpretation and putting your own sentiment into it.

no, it isn't and even if it was, you would not know about it. So stop behaving like a smart ass and start talking, not just for the sake of filling the space.
THE HITMAN - | 236
17 May 2011 #187
Seriously, disbelief comes over me when I read your posts

Personal issue, but the feeling is mutual.

Truth, my son.

Well here,s some " Truth ". .......

I am looking at the quality of life the PLN can buy now and it could buy 8 yeas ago, when I left- that is a real indication for me, not some comparison to other countries;). In general the quality of life has gotten worse if we take into consideration how much I have to pay for it.

.... and most of us PF users have a respect for aphrodisiac. She has a gift of putting things across in quite simplistic terms. Maybe you could learn something from her ?

So stop behaving like a smart ass and start talking, not just for the sake of filling the space

Go girl, go... !
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
17 May 2011 #188
Antek_Stalich: Who are the "Poles"?
obviously not you,

I see. The fact my opinion is different from yours (and I do not need to struggle for life because I've been working hard for it the whole life instead of whining) makes me a non-Pole.

Muszę to zapisać kredą w kominie na wypadek gdybym zapomniał.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
17 May 2011 #189
I don't recall AWS and SLD being a laughing stock. I actually lived in Poland during those times. Perhaps from the outside perspective they did?

The amount of blunders and mistakes made during that time was staggering - the election results in the subsequent election tells you all. There was definite political instability during that time.

Frankly Polish people can buy less with their cash.

That's the perception, but wages are increasing all the time - minimum wage is about to go up to 1500zl, and you just need to look at the cars in the cities (even compared to 5 years ago) to see that the country is getting richer.

I've never seen any hard data on it, but I'd be surprised if Poles were earning less in real terms.

I am looking at the quality of life the PLN can buy now and it could buy 8 yeas ago, when I left- that is a real indication for me, not some comparison to other countries;). In general the quality of life has gotten worse if we take into consideration how much I have to pay for it.

I was taking a look at a small companies accounts the other day (employs between 7-10 people in that period). The wages have risen dramatically - so you really have to look not only what one zloty buys, but also how much wages have risen in the same time. By all measures, people are earning much, much more than they were 8 years ago.

Anyway, the election results will tell all. If PO get re-elected, then the majority of Poles will have shown that they're happy with the current situation. Will it stop the moaning on PF? Of course not - there, after all, will have been an International Liberal Socialist Jewish Conspiracy to prevent PiS from winning.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
17 May 2011 #190
I see. The fact my opinion is different from yours (and I do not need to struggle for life because I've been working hard for it the whole life instead of whining) makes me a non-Pole.

Good for you, but we are NOT talking about YOU, are we?

I just want to clarify that the people I am talking about are not whining. I just have not seen their life improve over the period of 8 years in any significant way, which I guess it good, considering the crisis.
THE HITMAN - | 236
17 May 2011 #191
I do not need to struggle for life because I've been working hard for it the whole life instead of whining

Antek. How many people do you think that have not had the same fortune as you, not for the lack of will to work hard, but lack of opportunity, that cannot even afford to use this facility to express their disatisfactions.

People in this country like yourself, pawian and delph, are just self centered egoists, who look only at their own circumstances and not of anything else around them. You indeed are the slave-drivers of Poland. Shame on you all.

so you really have to look not only what one zloty buys, but also how much wages have risen in the same time. By all measures, people are earning much, much more than they were 8 years ago.

So what if wages have increased when everything else has risen tenfold. Of course the issue is the value of what the zloty can buy.

How do you expect the working class families to survive ? Eat grass ?
These are the people that make the country tick, not wallies like you sat behind some desk playing the big I am. Bet you, you couldn,t even nail two bits of wood together.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
17 May 2011 #192
Antek. How many people do you think that have not had the same fortune as you, not for the lack of will to work hard, but lack of opportunity, that cannot even afford to use this facility to express their disatisfactions.

The vast majority of people have no excuses, especially those who finished school after 1989.

Most of the moaning I hear comes from people who were in a prime position in 1989 to improve themselves - but chose to sit around complaining instead. No-one's going to criticise someone who genuinely didn't have the opportunity - but many of the people moaning were in the prime of their life when the system changed.

Sorry, but a job and holidays are not a human right.

People in this country like yourself, pawian and delph, are just self centered egoists, who look only at their own circumstances and not of anything else around them. You indeed are the slave-drivers of Poland. Shame on you all.

We're actually the ones who create opportunity. You know, instead of expecting the Government to provide us with jobs, flats, holidays and so on. It's funny - but many of the people complaining just want the old system back.

So what if wages have increased when everything else has risen tenfold. Of course the issue is the value of what the zloty can buy.

Your grasp of economics, like most socialists, seems to be rather weak indeed. The real question is the real cost of things - and I'd be willing to bet that the average Pole is far richer in 2010 than in 1990. Could Poles go for coffees in Frankurt (Oder) or Gorlitz in 1991? I doubt it, what with the average salary being around $25 a month. Nowadays? Easily. And *that* is the real measure.

These are the people that make the country tick, not wallies like you sat behind some desk playing the big I am. Bet you, you couldn,t even nail two bits of wood together.

You're right, actually. And I'd just hire someone to do it rather than do it myself - why would I want to waste my time fooling around with wood when someone can do it quicker and better than I can? Hey, look - I'm providing employment!

The people that make this country tick are not those who sit around whining and complaining about Tusk - but rather those who get off their backside and do something for the country. I know many people, even a few PiS voters who have absolutely no time for these people - I even know one PiS supporter who deplores the lazy socialist attitude that many people have.

Anyway, if there's no opportunity, why did I find it incredibly difficult to recruit a salesperson, even when offering 4,000zl a month and pretty generous terms and conditions?
THE HITMAN - | 236
17 May 2011 #193
4,000zl a month

Try offering 8,000zl.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
17 May 2011 #194
That's the perception, but wages are increasing all the time - minimum wage is about to go up to 1500zl, and you just need to look at the cars in the cities (even compared to 5 years ago) to see that the country is getting richer.

got any links?

As for cars - yes, many business owner lease them, so they can write them off, other people took credit most likely. Another group bought inexpensive refurbished cars from the West - what else is new.

I've never seen any hard data on it, but I'd be surprised if Poles were earning less in real terms.

Neither have I. It would be interesting to take a look at the data.

The wages have risen dramatically - so you really have to look not only what one zloty buys, but also how much wages have risen in the same time.

looking at how much zloty can buy me is the REAL indication of the progress. From my observation it can buy less and the quality of some products and services have a lot to desire, so in my opinion Poles are overpaying.

People in this country like yourself, pawian and delph, are just self centered egoists, who look only at their own circumstances and not of anything else around them. You indeed are the slave-drivers of Poland. Shame on you all.

you are a little harsh HITMAN. I think that some people are only able to look from the point of view. It is unfortunate, but many new successful Poles (whatever that means) are like that.

How do you expect the working class families to survive ? Eat grass ?
These are the people that make the country tick, not wallies like you sat behind some desk playing the big I am. Bet you, you couldn,t even nail two bits of wood together.

working class families have a hard time for sure, so do retired and lonely people. It is a shame really.
pawian 178 | 15,909
17 May 2011 #195
The real question is the real cost of things - and I'd be willing to bet that the average Pole is far richer in 2010 than in 1990. Could Poles go for coffees in Frankurt (Oder) or Gorlitz in 1991? I doubt it, what with the average salary being around $25 a month. Nowadays? Easily. And *that* is the real measure.

Exactly. I still remember that around 1992 the keyboard crashed in my first computer. I had to buy a new one for about 80 zlotys, while my monthly earnings of a beginner teacher at a private school amounted to 1000 zlotys and it was a very good pay then.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
17 May 2011 #196
Antek. How many people do you think that have not had the same fortune as you, not for the lack of will to work hard, but lack of opportunity, that cannot even afford to use this facility to express their disatisfactions.

The principle of the free economy is an individual is responsible for own success or own failure. BTW, it is also the doctrine of many Protestant churches if I'm not wrong. Governments can only make the opportunities for individual success or limit such opportunities.

Whining and demanding from Governments is a socialist disease.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
17 May 2011 #197
Governments can only make the opportunities for individual success or limit such opportunities.

Exactly. The Government of Poland makes sure that everyone has a roof over their head and food in their stomach (though it might not be particularly nice food and definitely no cakes - but fuel is fuel). After that, it's solely up to yourself - Governments are not to provide foreign holidays, nice clothes, sweets, luxurious flats, cars, etc.

While there might be a reason for people rotting away in villages and especially those former PGR places - anyone living in a town of 20,000 or more really has no excuse for not trying to better themselves. But it's easier to blame the Government than to accept personal responsibility, isn't it?
pawian 178 | 15,909
17 May 2011 #198
Whining and demanding from Governments is a socialist disease.

And the same disease corrupted the communist/socialist system so it finally collapsed.
gumishu 11 | 5,692
17 May 2011 #199
Whining and demanding from Governments is a socialist disease.

yeah, we should only give and never demand anything in return from the government - this way we should be top notch liberals (with up to 80 per cent taxation)
z_darius 14 | 3,968
17 May 2011 #200
The principle of the free economy is an individual is responsible for own success or own failure. BTW

never heard the term.
Do you mean free market economy? If so then there is no such thing in reality.
Free market economy is as real as communism. Both look good on paper, neither has never been tried.
Ironside 50 | 11,260
17 May 2011 #202
If you feel it is too much education for you, tell me and I will ease up a little. :):):)

pawian, I just said that yours translation is not good and I have provided a better one, you can take it or leave it!

I see.

No, you don't she is a Polish Ukrainian,huh ?

Governments can only make the opportunities for individual success or limit such opportunities.

Exactly, and the current government is doing a particularly shity job!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
17 May 2011 #203
yeah, we should only give and never demand anything in return from the government - this way we should be top notch liberals (with up to 80 per cent taxation)

The problem is that people demand things that really shouldn't be anything to do with the government.

I'm centre-left politically, yet I'm totally against transferring money to lazy, unmotivated people who want to be paid to do nothing. You want something, you work for it. If you suffer genuine misfortune, then the government can help you properly - resources being targeted properly.

Don't forget that a fair old percentage of people in Poland want a return to the Communist system in terms of guaranteed jobs, guaranteed pensions, guaranteed holidays, guaranteed flats and so on.

Exactly, and the current government is doing a particularly shity job!

Uh, the current Government is actually doing quite a good job of it. There's a lot of funds available, there's a lot of help available - generally speaking, there's no excuse right now for people not to go and work. Of course, the Government's not going to hand it to you on a plate - and nor should they.

I managed to start from nothing and now earn a pretty decent salary every month - why can't others?
THE HITMAN - | 236
18 May 2011 #204
Governments are not to provide foreign holidays, nice clothes, sweets, luxurious flats, cars, etc.

Patronising.

accept personal responsibility

Heard of " exploitation ".

demanding from Governments

Who used this phrase ? .... not me.

Could Poles go for coffees in Frankurt (Oder) or Gorlitz in 1991?

Funny you should bring up the past. When I recall Poles were more united and helpful to one another. Nowadays it,s dog eat dog, and they,d rob eachother down to the bare skin. Yes, they may have been poorer in the past, but I know which Poland I would rather be part of.

Don't forget that a fair old percentage of people in Poland want a return to the Communist system in terms of guaranteed jobs, guaranteed pensions, guaranteed holidays, guaranteed flats and so on.

Says who ? You ?
Why do you think millions left Poland ?
Not because all you mentioned is guaranteed, but the fact that it is likely to be achieved in the west. Here in Poand it,s an employers market and people are exploited.

In my local council recently there were over 200 applicants for a secretarial vacancy, simply because such a position offers stable employment. How many employers in Poland, other than local government provide contracted employment ? Most job offers are temporary or short term. Correct me if i,m wrong.
pawian 178 | 15,909
18 May 2011 #205
and I have provided a better one,

And I have proven you were wrong. :)

you can take it or leave it!

Certainly, you need to develop the ability to acknowledge your mistakes. :):):)

A few pages before, I presented 10 successes of Tusk and his team which I consider crucial. They were critisized by some posters as too abstract.

Today, next 8 which seem more palpable.

Part 2

1.In 2008 the government managed to pass the bill changing the early retirement system, despite trade unions` protests and opposition objections.

On 29 September 2008, the government concluded work on a draft bill reforming the system of enhanced early retirement, whereby members of particular occupational groups - such as miners, steelworkers and some transport workers and teachers - may retire early on grounds of their strenuous work. The government's reform will reduce the number of people eligible for early retirement to 250,000 persons from more than one million at present. It is not surprising that this has led to protests from groups that are to lose their privileges.

eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2008/11/articles/pl0811019i.htm

The bill was vetoed by President Kaczyński but to no avail. The budget of Poland was relieved of another burden.
dalje.com/en-world/polish-president-vetoes-key-pension-reform/215065

2. Poland withdrew troops from Iraq in 2008, in accordance with most Poles` opinion.

Poland will withdraw all its troops from Iraq by mid-October, Polish Defense Minister Bogdan Klich said on Saturday. The last Polish soldier will leave Iraq "in mid-October," said the minister in an interview with local radio RMF FM. Poland currently has some 900 military staff in Iraq, and 25 soldiers have died since 2003 when Poland deployed some 2,600 troops to Diwaniyah to back the U.S.-led military operation in the Middle East country. Recent polls by Poland's research center for public opinions have showed that about 81 percent of the Polish oppose to the country's military presence in Iraq.

3. The 2011 "creche" bill which makes it easier to set up and run public or private day care centers.
kobieta.dziennik.pl/dziecko/artykuly/316275,nareszcie-sejm-przyjal-ustawe-zlobkowa.html

4. 2010, the reform of judiciary system

Main points :

A/ the introduction of E-court.
Poland's first e-court started operating in Lublin on January 4. Its jurisdiction extends to the whole country and it will tackle proceedings by writ of payment, which are uncomplicated and do not requiring hearings of evidence. Such cases include those involving unpaid rent and unpaid phone, electricity and gas bills. Similar institutions function in Germany, the UK and the Czech Republic. "The Polish justice system is entering a new epoch. It will undergo an IT revolution," Justice Minister Krzysztof Kwiatkowski said at a press conference held to announce the event.

E-Court Working Full Tilt
A court recently launched by the Polish Ministry of Justice in the eastern city of Lublin to deliver justice via the internet was asked to examine a total of 686,900 cases last year, its first year in business. The figure was twice as high as the ministry expected, chiefly due to companies supplying utilities such as electricity and telephone services, taking legal action against customers with outstanding bills. The court has already examined 635,700 cases, settling 613,100 through the issuance of orders for payment. Only in 18,500 cases, or just 2.9 percent of the total number, have appeals been made against the court's rulings, which means that almost all the verdicts have become final and repossession officers can now begin to collect the amounts in question.

The Ministry of Justice says the launch of the court was one of its biggest successes in 2010.


B/ other changes in brief:
Prison Terms for Stalkers
Tougher Penalties for Polluters
Better Personal Data Protection
Parliament Out of Bounds After Conviction
No Work Permits Needed

warsawvoice.pl/WVpage/pages/article.php/23059/article

5. The reform of higher education, 2011:
Poland's higher education system will undergo significant changes if a bill signed into law today by President Bronisław Komorowski remains on the statute books. The bill is due to enter into force from October 1 but its constitutionality has been called into question.

The Polish Press Agency (PAP) reports that, after Easter, the opposition Law and Justice (PiS) party plans to raise questions abouth the constitutionality of the new law with the Constitutional Tribunal. Currently, students choosing to specialize in a second subject can do so at no extra cost, but under the new law only the brightest and best would be exempt from payment.


wbj.pl/article-54024-polands-universities-to-be-shaken-up.html

6. Taxation system reform.It is a very boring reading, anyone interested look here:

quoracy.com/2011/04/14/amendments-to-the-polish-vat-act-as-of-1-april-2011-%E2%80%93-tgc-legal-alert/
deloitte.com/assets/Dcom-Luxembourg/Local%20Assets/Documents/Newsletters/Operational%20tax%20news/2011/lu_otnpoland_18022011.p df
itrworldtax.com/Guide/532/Poland.html

6A. A splinter of the above. Personal Income Tax return can be filed over the Internet:
All companies and businesses will be able to file their tax returns via the internet as of the Jan. 1, 2008. Until now only 8 percent of companies have been able to do so. Some 39 various forms of tax return declarations will be made available by next January. This will include the VAT-7 monthly tax declaration. The Ministry of Finance has announced this method will simplify the process.

7. The reform of primary education:
The foundations of the National Curriculum reform include the following:
· compulsory pre-school education for 5-year-olds introduced,
· pre-school education swiftly followed by school education,
· lowered schooling age (6-year-olds start primary education),
· 6-year post-primary education combined into one system,
· minimum 4 years of post-primary school for a complete general education,
· wide selection of advanced subjects for High School students,


8. A splinter of the above, pay rises for teachers :):):):)
"We are also continuing with the teacher salary increase programme. The draft budget anticipates a 3.8 per cent raise in September 2012", he explained. He added that the pay hikes planned for 2011 will also be achieved. "This should mean that if we include the vocational advancement in this, a greater majority of teachers will get an overall raise of 50 per cent in comparison to 2007", indicated Donald Tusk.

TBC
z_darius 14 | 3,968
18 May 2011 #206
I simply meant capitalism.

That's a deceiving term too, as there is no such thing as "simply capitalism". There is definitely capitalism in communist China, socialist Germany, feudal Saudi Arabia. There was fascist Italian capitalism and fascist-like corporate capitalism in the US. Some argued that in the USSR they had a form of capitalism, called state capitalism.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
18 May 2011 #207
I'm centre-left politically, yet I'm totally against transferring money to lazy, unmotivated people who want to be paid to do nothing.

this is not who I was talking about.

I managed to start from nothing and now earn a pretty decent salary every month - why can't others?

you are an English teacher, so it is NOT that difficult, actually it is easy to make decent money in Poland. I do the same, so I know. It is not a rocket science, especially when one is a half decent worker lol

So get off your high horse, will yah........I am just trying to put things into perspective for you:)

So how long have you been in Poland? Still haven't answered my question.
pawian 178 | 15,909
18 May 2011 #208
Not exactly. To prosper as a teacher of English in Poland, you must be a good one to compete in the market which is crowded with teachers (or people who have just been to the US or England for a longer time, and, after coming back to Poland, take up teaching).

And I don`t only mean mere education in English and qualifications. I also mean personality traits. Certain qualities have to be learnt and developed to become a good teacher. So it is not as easy as you suggest.
gumishu 11 | 5,692
18 May 2011 #209
you forgot about one very important point - corruption- and it's cost on the tax payer - I wouldn't be surprised it is as much a burden to the system as those who just don't want to work and live off the tax payer

yes. Mr Tusk pledged we won't be fighting the wars of the others that's why we withdrew from Iraq - but tell me why Polish troops are in Afghanistan (where losses are already much bigger than these from Iraq)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
18 May 2011 #210
I took all the above into consideration:). Still not a rocket science, especially for a fairly educated Native Speaker with people skills and Certificates. It is much more difficult to manage a bank:)


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