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Boys acting and dressing feminine, girls acting and dressing masculine - transgender teens in Poland


jon357 75 | 22,573
15 Mar 2023 #121
How do you know what's more likely to happen in the future?

Pretty well all surgical procedures have been and are developed, so is there a reason this one would be frozen in time?

that article

I'm always suspicious of articles like that. They are often placed with the media outlet by pressure groups.
Paulina 17 | 4,445
15 Mar 2023 #122
Pretty well all surgical procedures have been and are developed, so is there a reason this one would be frozen in time?

Yes, there will be a reason not to develop it further (at least for the purpose of sex change) if scientists/doctors will find the cause for gender dysphoria and other treatment will be available.

I'm always suspicious of articles like that.

You mean the ones that write something that you don't like? lol

They are often placed with the media outlet by pressure groups.

You mean such "pressure groups" like the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare and Karolinska Hospital in Stockholm?? lol

Oh dear, jon357... I see you're one of the people those kids should be protected from :(
jon357 75 | 22,573
15 Mar 2023 #123
Yes, there will be a reason not to develop it further

There's always money; the treatment was developed commercially and every advance in that has been a. commercial and b. outside the scope of the Polish health services..

You mean the ones that write something that you don't like? lol

Lol, lol yourself. Did you think that articles like that are a result of journalistic investigation?

I see you're one of the people those kids should be protected from

Grow up.

While people are getting all worked up about something very rare, ask what else is happening that is being drowned out by what PR professionals call "noise".
Paulina 17 | 4,445
15 Mar 2023 #124
There's always money

And there's the law that may prohibit such surgeries if they're no longer needed...

What are you - some fan of people mutilating their bodies and risking their health, even if it's not necessary? o_O What the hell?

Did you think that articles like that are a result of journalistic investigation?

Why not? Do you have any proof that French public channels lack journalistic quality or that this article was "placed by a pressure group"? o_O

And what about the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare and Karolinska Hospital in Stockholm? Don't you think they had a good reason to restrict gender reassignment hormone treatments for minors? Or is that a result of some kind of conspiracy too, according to you? lol

Grow up.

Hey, I'm not the one being in denial of facts/reality here.

And the fact that something is very rare doesn't mean it doesn't matter. Every person matters.
jon357 75 | 22,573
15 Mar 2023 #125
And there's the law that may prohibit such surgeries

In Thailand? Morocco? Cambodia?

o_O

What?

fan of people mutilating their bodies .......in denial of facts/reality

You've fallen into the trap of taking sides in manufactured online discussions about other people's lives. Did I say I favour surgical procedures on minors? Perhaps you can look back through the thread and see where.

This is a relatively new issue; and one that is in its infancy. It affects a tiny number of people, yet the sheer volume of noise online about it is staggering. Read my last comment in post 126.

And meanwhile, the people who are actually affected by the issue are being hounded out of jobs, yelled at in the streets and the murder rate among transgender women is far higher than among the population at large.
Paulina 17 | 4,445
15 Mar 2023 #126
In Thailand? Morocco? Cambodia?

In the West. Although if there was a treatment that would simply cure gender dysphoria I doubt anyone in the right mind would want to go through all those surgeries anyway. I wouldn't want to (and I wish people wouldn't have to go through such horrible stuff - I think that's only natural). Just reading about those surgeries makes my skin crawl.

What?

How about you address my arguments instead of focusing on an emoticon (which was expressing shock and bewilderment, btw)?

This is a relatively new issue; and one that is in its infancy.

And so it is a subject of a hot debate that will probably continue for a while. And this is a discussion forum where you debate stuff.
jon357 75 | 22,573
15 Mar 2023 #127
I doubt anyone in the right mind would want to go through all those surgeries anyway.

i suspect some would still live the life.

How about you address my arguments

Your arguments? I've read both extremes played out on Twitter and elsewhere daily, most of it hostility towards trans women (rarely trans men). If you want arguments, just copy and paste some from there.

a hot debate that will probably continue for a while. And this is a discussion forum where you debate

Discussing isn't 'debating', and as I've said twice in this thread (do people really have to repeat points whenever a new person on a high horse appears?), the younger generations, especially Zoomers, have far less of a problem with this than anyone else. Attitudes change, whether people like that or not.
Paulina 17 | 4,445
15 Mar 2023 #128
i suspect some would still live the life.

Meaning? They'd rather mutilate their bodies and risk their health instead of getting treatment?

Your arguments?

Yes, my arguments about the quality of journalism on public French channels and the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare and Karolinska Hospital in Stockholm restricting gender reassignment hormone treatments for minors. You didn't address that.

Discussing isn't 'debating

Discussing, debating. Whatever. 🙄
jon357 75 | 22,573
15 Mar 2023 #129
They'd rather mutilate their bodies and

People have lived across gender boundaries for Millennia. Did you think that most of the world's transgender population have had surgical intervention?

the quality of journalism

People still place stories, y'know. And it's hard to know what French media and Swedish hospitals have to do with teenagers in Poland.

Whatever.

There's a difference, you know...

But hey, you want to take part in a 'culture war' against a group, trans people, who have won every battle they've fought.

It's quite dangerous to get sucked into a battle that is not yours.
Paulina 17 | 4,445
15 Mar 2023 #130
Did you think that most of the world's transgender population have had surgical intervention?

You seem to be very much in favour of those surgeries and "transhumanism" or whatever, so I was wondering what you meant by "living the life".

And it's hard to know what French media and Swedish hospitals have to do with teenagers in Poland.

You made a claim about that article on France 24 without providing any proof.
As for "Swedish hospitals" - I imagine Sweden has much more experience with this stuff than Poland, so I'm guessing that Polish doctors and scientists will be looking carefully at what's happening in Sweden.

you want to take part in a 'culture war' against a group, trans people

No, I don't.
mafketis 37 | 10,907
15 Mar 2023 #131
instead of getting treatment?

For a peak at the insane rhetoric that jon doesn't seem aware of look here (CW adult content and kind of insane, read at your own risk)

twitter.com/TransHomophobes/status/1636049628146679833/photo/1
jon357 75 | 22,573
15 Mar 2023 #132
You seem to be very much in favour of those surgerie

Did I say that? No. Although I'm certainly not as opposed to them as you are. And they'll happen anyway, even if someone banned them, regardless of what you think, what I think, what anti- or pro- campaigners think and what Twitter thinks.

I was wondering what you meant by "living the life".

What did you think I mean? I've said already that people have been living outside gender boundaries for a very long time indeed. There's a whole world out there that passes straights by. And it is very resilient.

I imagine Sweden has much more experience with this stuff than Poland

You'd be surprised. I was certainly surprised a few years ago when I saw some stats about Poland.

And of course most trans people don't have the surgery that outsiders fixate on at all.

@maf

I'm more than aware of the extreme rhetoric on both sides, a great deal coming from your country of origin. Extremes are best avoided. I was actually called a transphobe by some very uptight American women (the type who write "YT" or "whyte" instead of white for whatever reason) for saying I'd not shag a man with a minge. Apparently I have a "hang up" with genitalia according to them.

For a peak at the insane rhetoric that jon doesn't seem aware of

One problem with paying attention to the most extreme voices in any argument (mostly coming form outsiders or exhibitionists) is that they whip up emotion and people less privileged than them almost invariably end up getting hurt. The number of trans people who are part of the established trans community in Rio that get killed is rising, and there have even been some attacks in Istanbul where the scene has thrived peacefully and benignly for centuries.
Lyzko 42 | 9,499
15 Mar 2023 #133
Gender identity issues are as old as the hills! Typically though, as with most everything else deemed "deviant", it was never, ever, ever discussed or even hinted at certainly not in public (perhaps not in private either).

Surely Freud and colleagues had studied umpteen examples of this while studying the human mind.
Paulina 17 | 4,445
15 Mar 2023 #134
Did I say that? No.

You did come off as some great fan with your rhetoric.

Although I'm certainly not as opposed to them as you are.

I'm not opposed to them if they're necessary and there's no other way. I realise they may save lives.

You'd be surprised.

Considering that Sweden was the first country to legalise sex change I doubt that Poland has more experience with this than Sweden... And I don't just mean the number of treatments and surgeries, but also research, studies, etc.
mafketis 37 | 10,907
15 Mar 2023 #135
to the most extreme voices

This is not some tiny fringe... it's very close to the norm now. You need to take a deep dive into trans twitter... and report back on what you find....

twitter.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1635685565239635985

twitter.com/ajlieshere/status/1633187661539323906/photo/1

twitter.com/redpilledhomo/status/1635258925963677697/photo/1

twitter.com/troonytoons/status/1635836131991511041

Lots more out there.... including lots worse....

one more.... did you know it's 'transphobic' for lesbians to not want to have sex with penises or gay men to not want to penetrate vaginas?

Now you know.

twitter.com/TransHomophobes/status/1635959039568883712/photo/1
gumishu 15 | 6,285
15 Mar 2023 #136
one more.... did you know it's 'transphobic' for lesbians to not want to have sex with penises..

I don't know if you read about it, mafketis, but some communists in the time of Russian revolution advocated 'community of wives'
Paulina 17 | 4,445
15 Mar 2023 #137
twitter.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1635685565239635985

This is ridiculous... Why isn't anyone opposing this?
Is this happening only in the US or also in Western Europe? I mean - boys and men with penises and male body-build participating in girl's and women's sports...

And the cheek of that boy... "Deal with it." What a selfish a$$hole...
jon357 75 | 22,573
15 Mar 2023 #138
You did come off as some great fan with your rhetoric

Only responding to it; that is the danger of rhetoric online. It is inflationary.

I doubt that Poland has more experience with this

As I said, you might be surprised. Sweden (and especially pre-war Germany) did perform some early ones, however there has been more in Poland than most people are aware of.

You need to take a deep dive into trans twitter ... did.you.know.it's 'transphobic' ....gay men.to.not want to penetrate vaginas

As mentioned, I've seen it all and been called transphobic for not fancying blokes with minges. I've been called misogynistic for not consideing someone who lives their life as a woman a man.

For all the hipster radicals on one side and the TERFs on another screaming at each other online like the chattering classes on coke, there's someone who puts food on the table by turning tricks in a barrio in Sao Paolo or the backstreets of Jeddah or round Taksim getting beaten up or killed. The screamers go back to their middle class suburban lives and those who are not affected live 5 to a room and can't get a job. That includes in Warsaw.
Korvinus 3 | 553
15 Mar 2023 #139
I think stuff like the "Black Lives Matter" riots, "Drag Queen Story Hour", brainwashing children with critical race theory and gender ideology in order to get them to chemically castrate or mutilate themselves, putting rapists into women's prisons and generally gaslighting people about human biology, having completely open borders and then entirely ignoring the consequences of said decisions as things like gangs, violent crime and rape increase or even gaslighting people that it's all a conspiracy theory pushed by the evil "right-wing" while instead trying to "abolish the police", tearing down statues and taking a sh*it on the founding principles and ideals of the country, trying to abolish the maybe most important founding principle of "Free Speech" in roundabout ways, trying to ruin people's lives over jokes, simple disagreements or everyday interactions and similar might do that a bit more than lil' old Tucker Carlson with his Fox News show. Might want to do something about that kind of stuff if you want to prevent your possible feared future, because almost everybody has a breaking point.
jon357 75 | 22,573
15 Mar 2023 #140
Wow. there's a lot to unpack there. Like all the small-minded readers of the daily mail stuffed together into one phone box.

"Drag Queen Story Hour"

Do you have a problem with that?

Great entertainment, not remotely sexual. Did you use to cover your eyes when Danny la Rue came on TV in sequins or at the panto when Widow Twanky came on?
mafketis 37 | 10,907
15 Mar 2023 #141
some communists in the time of Russian revolution advocated 'community of wives'

I don't know the specifics but I do know the early communists were very much into "free love" and dismantling the idea of families and after a very short period of time realized that was a terrible mistake and the USSR became extremely sexually conservative.... on the surface at least. What I've heard of late USSR was that there was adultery going on all over the place (not too dissimilar from late PRL to be honest).

to get them to chemically castrate or mutilate themselves

Medical capitalism... the goal is to make people think they can only be their 'authentic' selves with many very expensive medical interventions... it's also behind the opioid epidemic where normal human emotions are supposed to medicated away. It was also behind the major push for the crappy, leaky ineffective mrna 'vaccines'

Capital is no longer that interested in our labor, it's interested in our bodies and wants to wring profits from tampering with and modifying our bodies.... and some poor idealistic fools think it's a good idea.

The formidable former Australian leftist Aime Terese is spitting fire here and I agree with every word.

twitter.com/aimeeterese/status/1635958673632817152
jon357 75 | 22,573
15 Mar 2023 #142
is spitting fire here

She's good at that, and there's a lot to unpack in that tweet. A nicer task of unpacking than the brain vomit in post 143. She is very outspoken and as far as I know, she's not a TERF.
Novichok 3 | 7,837
16 Mar 2023 #143
Great entertainment, not remotely sexual.

Doesn't need to be sexual to be disgusting. Like defecating in public.
jon357 75 | 22,573
16 Mar 2023 #144
Do you think pantomime is 'disgusting'?

Like defecating in public

Mind your manners.
mafketis 37 | 10,907
16 Mar 2023 #145
you think pantomime is 'disgusting'?

Americans don't do pantomime and have no idea what you're talking about....

for them: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantomime

That type of drag has a long tradition in America as well, one of the first TV superstars was Milton Berle who frequently did drag.

youtube.com/watch?v=i2NqUL3xJ9Y

In the 1960s there was Jonathan Winters as Maude Frickert

youtube.com/watch?v=PCdlXHu3-LE

In the 1970s there was Flip Wilson as Geraldine (not the same type of thing but very funny)

youtube.com/watch?v=lEKPR1eIBrI

As per your previous question, I might be okay with Drag Queen Story Hour if the queens in question were in that tradition (say between Mrs Doubtfire and Dame Edna) but most modern drag now has descended into the grotesque and hideous, I don't think this is appropriate for small children

pbs.twimg.com/media/DMN9oKgUIAAls6N?format=jpg&name=medium

Nor is this:

twitter.com/MentalVids/status/1633969640001925120

Not to mention lax vetting that let some with sex convictions participate:

newsweek.com/sex-offender-busted-drag-queen-who-read-book-children-city-library-1365384

reduxx.info/rest-in-power-drag-queen-story-hour-uk-founder-fundraising-for-convicted-child-sex-offenders-funeral/

So theoretically oaky but so far in practice? Snake eyes.

Or as a drag queen herself puts it....

twitter.com/wopizza/status/1633366644818071553
jon357 75 | 22,573
16 Mar 2023 #146
Americans don't do pantomime

Their loss. It's trashy and proletarian but great fun. One special thing is the two-level humour, slapstick for the kids and things that go over their head aimed at the parents.I used to like seeing Billy Pierce at the Bradford Alhambra.

superstars was Milton Berle who frequently did drag.

I only know one thing about him which is anatomical.

Drag is a centuries' old tradition and is great fun.

now has descended into the grotesque and hideous

It always has been grotesque; that's why kids love it so much.

I suppose they could always watch violent tv instead or go to church and get bummed by one of the faithful.
mafketis 37 | 10,907
16 Mar 2023 #147
that's why kids love it so much.

So you have no problem with convicted sex offenders twerking to WAP for an audience of 7 year olds.... noted.
jon357 75 | 22,573
16 Mar 2023 #148
None. Whatever 'WAP' is.

I'm sure all safeguarding issues are taken into account. And do they 'twerk' while telling fairy tales? How do they hold the book? And is there 'twerking' on TV?
mafketis 37 | 10,907
16 Mar 2023 #149
None. Whatever 'WAP' is.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAP_(song)

I'm sure all safeguarding issues are taken into account.

Dude, I just showed you links where convicted sex offenders were taking part! In my world, once you're a sex offender you stay the hell away from children as much as humanly possible.
jon357 75 | 22,573
16 Mar 2023 #150
where convicted sex offenders were taking part!

Where a library "failed to complete a background check as required,". Were there any incidents?

And he wasn't a drag artiste. He was someone pretending to be one which strongly suggests the venue is at fault for their procedures. Still probably safer than alot of churches though.

WAP_(song)

Do they perform songs like that at children's storytelling sessions? Do they perform songs at all?

When we were kids, we watched Mrs Slocombe talking about her pussy getting wet twice a week on the BBC. Nothing sexual about it as far as kids are concerned. Don't you think violent content on TV and ads for guns are a problem? Since storytelling events in schools are not.


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