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Boys acting and dressing feminine, girls acting and dressing masculine - transgender teens in Poland


poland_
25 Mar 2011  #1
There is an increase in transgender teens in Poland. Boys acting and dressing feminine. Girls acting and dressing masculine, are we about to enter the age of " Gender lost" in Poland. Who is responsible for this increase, the media, music industry ( MTV) or is this just and phase and they are not transgender, but really fashionita's.
smurf 39 | 1,981
25 Mar 2011  #2
are we about to enter the age of " Gender lost" in Poland

no

Who is responsible

genes

each to their own lad, why be a hater?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
25 Mar 2011  #3
Who is responsible for this increase

Who was responsible for the decrease in the first place? Look at the history of clothing and compare let's say what Greek women and men wore - togas and stuff :), hardly distinguishable; then in the Western Europe at the Renaissance period, particularly, differenses were enormous both in rich and poor layers of the society. But then after the wars in the 20th century the movement (often simply in our heads) to equalize the rights of men and women which started much, much earlier slowly became naturally the differences in dresses between the two sexes. We are completing the circle. It is nothing new. Besides the accomodation for slight difference in musculature, hip-size or genital specifics there is no reason to set limits on how feminine the guys can be or how masculine the girls should dress. I have no idea in clothing and its history, but I think one can trace the change in any country out there and see that the code is nothing but an invention.

Myself, I am quite conservative in what I wear, but I enjoy seeing people being free in wearing whatever they like and feeling great about it.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
25 Mar 2011  #4
There is an increase in transgender teens in Poland.

Wow - I'd love to see a statistic on that. I know there have been a few gender realignments of the very young in other countries, but I didn't know about Poland. Interesting that Polish doctors are getting involved.

I enjoy seeing people being free in wearing whatever they like

Transgender is an identity; about who you are, your endocrinology and how you identify, rather than just what you wear. Androgynous fashion and cross dressing are a different thing.

Though cross dressing, the very start of the transgender continuum, seems quite a big thing in Warsaw - however more a going out at weekends thing than a huge life decision.
OP poland_
25 Mar 2011  #5
each to their own lad, why be a hater?

your endocrinology and how you identify, rather than just what you wear. Androgynous fashion and cross dressing are a different thing.

Far from being a hater, Smurf. Thanks for your explanation JohnnyM. It would be more precise to mention the rise of "androgyne" in PL.

The interesting discussion is what is behind the movement is it media/music,fashion or lifestyle change. Maybe even a combination of all. If we look at countries like Holland and Denmark for example it is quite obvious that male and female characteristics are almost as one, would Poland go the same way in the future.

This thread is not about Gay/lesbian or bisexual and we do not want any comments on what posters personal opinion is of, the afore mentioned ( good or bad).
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
25 Mar 2011  #6
t Gay/lesbian or bisexual and we do not want any comments on what posters personal opinion is of, the afore mentioned ( good or bad).[/quote]
Maybe change the thread title to 'cross-dressing' rather than transgender. That has a specific and complicated meaning about gender identity, not that transgender people can agree what that meaning is without arguments that make some of the ones on here look like a WI coffee morning...

For what it's worth, young 'alternative' clubbers and their fashions have long been influenced by people who blur gender boundaries, and the genderqueer and genderfuck people in particular are interesting to the music business and the videos that end up on MTV because of the visual appeal of some of their clothes and their visual impact when in a video.

Le Madame in Warsaw used to cross certain style boundaries. Not at all a gay bar, but a place to see alternative fashions by some of the trendiest of the Warsaw jeunesse doree. I think that crowd go somewhere across the river now.
smurf 39 | 1,981
25 Mar 2011  #7
Far from being a hater

well then I apologise profusely, I've come to expect the worst here on PL and when I saw the thread I had wrongly assumed that you were gonna go on a rant about how they're heathens and etc.

To be serious then, I'm not sure if any one influence is to blame, I do honestly think it's something people are born with and now in some countries, at least, society is open enough to tolerate it. I don't see it in Poland, I had some gay Polish friends in Ireland and they told me many times they'd never move back here because of the intolerance and ignorance shown to them. Can't blame them, there's a huge amount of homophobia here.

But i've nothing against boys having an effeminate disposition and the same for girls.

But then again, I live in Katowice and not in trendy *ahem* Warsaw :P
OP poland_
25 Mar 2011  #8
Maybe change the thread title to 'cross-dressing' rather than transgender.

The rise of "androgyne" teens in PL, would be more accurate.
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
25 Mar 2011  #9
are we about to enter the age of " Gender lost" in Poland.

From that post,no,sounds more like you are about to enter the early 1980s :)
But do you actually mean that there are more people publicaly identifying as Transgendered and seeking a solution to their birth defect?
Transgender is not new,is not an "invention" of some decedant west either. The Hijarii of India are as old as Hinduism. The Native Americans had a 3rd gender..or rather,let their children choose their gender roles,a young girl,if she wished could live as a warrior and a young boy as a squaw,obviously without the benifit of modern medical procedures but they lived full time in a opposite gender role to the one assigned at birth.

Although this thread is bound to attract the usuall braindeads if someone is genuinly trans its not a clothes thing,its not a fetish and its certainly not a life choice. Even in more open sociaties transgender people face serious problems sometimes,why would anyone "choose" that?

On the "lighter" side, maybe you are just talking about a more relaxed attitude to fashion. I know there are plenty of girlie looking emo boys around here,all skinny jeans and eyeliner,that would never even dream of considering they were anything but full on hetro boys and would die if they thought they might lose their,ahem,dangly bits.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
25 Mar 2011  #10
The rise of "androgyne" teens in PL, would be more accurate.

Have you noticed that too? Some of the young people who hang around outside Metro Centrum smoking those coloured cocktail cigarettes seem to blur into one gender. I've heard the term 'emo'.
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
25 Mar 2011  #11
lols,Emo,see my previous post :) a couple of years ago I thought Donny had been invaded by the cast of Hedwig ! ;)
OP poland_
25 Mar 2011  #12
But do you actually mean that there are more people publicaly identifying as Transgendered and seeking a solution to their birth defect?

No, that was an error on my part, it is more the rise of the "androgyne" teens in PL. Yes it is almost like the 80's in some ways.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
25 Mar 2011  #13
is almost like the 80's in some ways.

And the glam rock Marc Bolan years before that. It tends to be cyclical. Which are the bands who inspire it these days?
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
25 Mar 2011  #14
Ok, right,hope you realise I meant the 80s bit not in a "haha,back then you all wore potato sacks and chairman mao hats while we all wore our aunties ******** blouses and masscara..." but just,the 80s came back here too.

And the glam rock Marc Bolan years before that. It tends to be cyclical.

A few years back it was bands like Placebo I figure, Marilyn manson,that sort of "Goth /Indie" stuff,now its definatly all that navel gazing emu stuff.....and Im 15 years to old to help you there :)

edit.OMG,how on earth does p u ss y bow blouse get edited out FFS! :)
Wroclaw 44 | 5,388
25 Mar 2011  #15
There is an increase in transgender teens in Poland. Boys acting and dressing feminine.

a programme on tv about it at this very moment (tvn)
OP poland_
25 Mar 2011  #16
Wroclaw, let us know what they have to say.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,388
25 Mar 2011  #17
i wasn't paying much attention. after working in london's soho, it's nothing new.

here's a clip from today's show.

rozmowywtoku.tvn.pl/45898,news,,1,dzisiaj_w_rozmowach_w_toku,ak tualnosc.html

not 100% on topic, but gives an idea of freedom of expression
Nathan 18 | 1,363
25 Mar 2011  #18
Transgender is an identity; about who you are, your endocrinology and how you identify, rather than just what you wear.

Nicely said. But putting on not what you are "supposed" to wear is part of endocrinological influence too. These are just different degrees of self-awareness or expression. Fashion is not exactly some artificial facade we put on without thinking or without some physiological change. Even Adam's fig-leaf tells us something about his inner hormonal state. Do you think transgender, cross-dressing and fashion as such have common root or are they completely separate entities, not to mix together?

Regarding the identification of the words and their specifics I agree.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
25 Mar 2011  #19
That's an interesting one - a kind of continuum of self identity, identifying clothes with self image, and where that image goes beyond society's norms, so do the clothes...
isthatu2 4 | 2,708
26 Mar 2011  #20
Do you think transgender, cross-dressing and fashion as such have common root or are they completely separate entities, not to mix together?

Cross dressing can be an early way for transgender people to explore who they feel they are inside,in 90 odd % of cases of blokes who occasionally sneak into their wifes skimpies this will be as far as they go on the masculine -feminine chart,will often be the Alfa male type. The 10 % who realise that they are not concerned about what they wear but how they feel inside 24/7 are Transgender,every one else is just creative or a bit kinky in a harmless way,despite what hollywood used to tell us :)

fashion? For the truelly transgendered this is simply not an issue. There was a famous Ish case of a Transgender woman arrested in Afganistan a year or so ago. She could hardly be called someone who made a choice based on a whim or a desire to wear "pretty things" ,she was stuck in a Burkkha and at the lowest end of a patriarchal sociaty. Incidently,the brave Afgan democratic western trained Police beat her to death as she was tied to a chair.


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