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IS "MURZYN" word RACIST?


gumishu 11 | 4,850    
4 Apr 2014  #331
Those of us who actually live in Poland know that Poland gets more black by the day

Interestingly I don't believe you - so you say Poland has now 0,15 pro mille of blacks rather than 0,1 pro mille - where do they all come from and why they choose the land of the poor
Harry    
4 Apr 2014  #332
Interestingly I don't believe you

I don't care what you believe; I live in Poland (unlike you, you never even visit Poland) and I know what I see.

where do they all come from and why they choose the land of the poor

They mainly come from Africa. And Poland is not the land of the poor, I invite you to visit us and find that out for yourself.
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #333
I hate to nitpick, but that's not Polish, not even slang Polish or uneducated Polish.

Somehow , I doubt a foreigner wrote such graffiti. Worth mentioning though that most nationalists/racists are both uneducated and rather stupid.

I don't care what you believe; I live in Poland (unlike you, you never even visit Poland) and I know what I see.

Spot on. The guy you were replying to didn't take into account the rural/urban split.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
4 Apr 2014  #334
I live in Poland (unlike you, you never even visit Poland)

oh man, you are a completely deluded bloke - I was born raised and live currently in Poland and lived most of my life here - and I haven't seen a black person in ages outside the TV
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #335
I haven't seen a black person in ages outside the TV

Loosk like you don't spend much time in Śródmieście.
Harry    
4 Apr 2014  #336
Or Wola, Saska Kepa, Mokotow, Muranow or Praga, given how all of those places also have African shops / cafes / restaurants.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #337
Somehow , I doubt a foreigner wrote such graffiti.

I am not saying a foreigner wrote such graffiti. I am saying that a foreigner quoted it, and their mistake shows that their command of Polish is rather sketchy - which means that many nuances of the language probably evade them.

Or, possibly, the foreigner who quoted it actually made it up in the first place.

Worth mentioning though that most nationalists/racists are both uneducated and rather stupid.

Of course they are. But even the stupidest native speaker of Polish would never say 'Murzyny do drewa'. Try to guess why. There are actually TWO very serious grammatical errors (not mistakes) in this very short sentence. And "Murzyny", though not a literary form of the word, is not one of them.

jon357:
Loosk like you don't spend much time in Śródmieście.

Or Wola, Saska Kepa, Mokotow, Muranow or Praga, given how all of those places also have African shops / cafes / restaurants.

...so, these areas encompass Poland for you? Congratulations. ;-)
Harry    
4 Apr 2014  #338
..so, these areas encompass Poland for you?

Where they lead Poland follows.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #339
That's a very naive outlook. There are large areas of Poland which are pretty much going their own way(s) and do not stress overmuch about the Capital City, or might even be slightly hostile towards it.
WielkiPolak 57 | 1,052    
4 Apr 2014  #340
Those of us who actually live in Poland know that Poland gets more black by the day. And as that happens, the despicable bigoted views which you pollute this place with become less and less common

You know what, I really hope that people like you get deported from Poland ASAP. You are one of those damn chicken **** white people, excuse my language, who defend people of other races constantly, but not people of their race. You're one of those white people that other white people should be ashamed of. Before you try to quote that and claim that I am racist, it's not! It's fact.

Black people are proud to be black. Black people defend other black people and talk **** about white people all the time. Many predominantly black countries don't want white people living there. Not wanting people of other races to live in your country is not racism. It is common sense. Having multicultural societies simply causes more problems that is necessary. As much as you try to live in your own fantasy land and play this elitist ******* who is perfect and thinks that the British and American multicultural way should be adopted by other countries in the world, because it is the correct way to live, people with some sense will always know this is bull****.

Speak to people in the UK or America. I know when you speak to a lot of British white people in a quiet place, behind closed doors, they say 'this country is gone. Look at it. Look at the problems caused by interracial fighting and claims of racism, constantly.' Then in public they have to pretend they have different views, or they would be accused of racism. You have to tread on eggshells in the UK. Even if you don't want to give a racial minority a job, based on merit, they can take out a racism case and you have to prove yourself innocent. It's insane!

Wake up *******! Stop pretending you are better than 'bigoted' Polish people as you like to say. Here's an argument for you that is often used in homosexual debates. People like you like to say 'well even animals have homosexual tendencies, so that proves it is not a choice and must be normal.' Well you know what? Animals, when they see a a different type of animal they are not used to, you know, another species that does not look like them, most of the time, they don't accept it. Some get used to it after a while, others don't and that's just the way it is. That does not mean one animal is better than another, just like with people of different races, it just means it works better if you keep them separate to avoid problems.

Racism has existed, exists now and will continue to exist. It's part of being different. I personally don't consider myself to be a racist, though I do agree with not allowing too many foreign immigrants in to a country and that does not make me a racist. Before somebody tries to bring up my situation of living in the UK, don't. I have always lived here and am a British citizen but Polish heritage. I am also looking to get a Polish passport soon. You don't know my past, so don't try to use an argument against me. I really hope more people like you don't move to Poland and I damn sure pray that nobody like you ever makes it in to power in Poland, or the country could be done.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,101    
4 Apr 2014  #341
The fact that there are people in Poland who are racists towards the black people doesn't mean that the word "Murzyn" is racist. The fact that some Polish racists would use the word "Murzyn" means that there is simply no other word in Polish for describing a black person. They could use "czarny", but that would really look somewhat offensive in view of the fact that there exists the literally correct word "Murzyn" which is perfectly neutral and accepted as such in every old and contemporary dictionariy of Polish. If they used "czarnuch", it would reveal the racist attitude towards black people in this very word.

But, if someone writes or says "Murzyni na drzewa", it is the contexts that makes the saying racist, namely the phrase "na drzewa" attached to "Murzyn", and not the word "Murzyn" itself.

Likewise, the phrase "Żydzi do gazu" is racist not because the word "Żydzi" in it is racist (it is perfectly neutral in Polish), but because the part "do gazu" in it builds the ugly racist context. There is simply no other word than "Żydzi" to use in Polish for describing the Jewish people outside and inside Israel ("Izraelici" or "starozakonni" are religious terms, while "Izraelczycy" is a much narrower term describing the citizens of Israel only).

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It is a real pity that our two friends, the "All-Know Two Stooges" (known as "The All-Know Three Stooges" until the time Delph was infamously expelled from the PF for revealing personal data of other members) cannot comprehend these basic things. Are they really that "All-Know" as they want to pass for?
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #342
I am not saying a foreigner wrote such graffiti. I am saying that a foreigner quoted it,

Verbatim, actually. And yes, I did pick up right away on the weird way it was written.

But, if someone writes or says "Murzyni na drzewa", it is the contexts that makes the saying racist,

And this sums up in one easy phrase why the word is avoided by cultured people.
Harry    
4 Apr 2014  #343
there exists the literally correct word "Murzyn"

I'm sure that to you the word is entirely correct and acceptable, just as to you the word 'n1gger' is perfectly acceptable.

known as "The All-Know Three Stooges" until the time Delph was infamously expelled from the PF for revealing personal data of other members

Wow, how nice of you to really show your class by lying about a poster who can't post here in order to defend himself against your lies.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #344
And yes, I did pick up right away on the weird way it was written.

Well, it could NOT have been written by a native speaker of Polish, I'm afraid. Maybe some immigrant of other nationality was trying to express their feelings then.
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #345
Somehow I doubt that.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #346
well, I doubt any native Polish speaker would write "Murzyny do drewa" considering the fact that neither the grammatical construction itself nor the word "drewo" exist in Polish.

Even if someone correctly wrote "do drzewa" or "do drewna" it would not mean that they are sending anyone up a tree, but merely that they are pointing them in the direction of either a tree (presumably to sit under it) or to a piece of wood. Makes absolutely no sense either way. And is not insulting either. The only insulting form would be "na drzewo / drzewa".
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #347
Why don't you go and swab the wall it's written on for DNA in that case rather than shoot the messenger. Bad grammar on graffiti is less implausible (even very common) than a non-Pole writing it. And yes, it is "do drzewa" and not "na drzewa" but that's off-topic, as you well know.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,101    
4 Apr 2014  #348
the word is avoided by cultured people.

The word isn't avoided by cultered people. Racist contexts are avoided by cultured people.

The phrase "Murzyni to tacy sami ludzie jak biali" is not avoided by cultured people. Likewise, the sentence "Moimi sąsiadami są dwaj Murzyni" is not avoided by cultured people. Re-write this sentence replacing "Murzyni" with anything else - you will show you are an expert in Polish.

To Harry, the wisest of ...
"Nigger" isn't the equivalent of "Murzyn". Its equivalent is "Czarnuch". How nice of you to really show your ignorance.
Harry    
4 Apr 2014  #349
but merely that they are pointing them in the direction of either a tree (presumably to sit under it)

Hmm, I wonder what use a racist might have for a tree when it comes to black people. Any ideas?

Bad grammar on graffiti is less implausible (even very common) than a non-Pole writing it.

Surely you cannot mean that the type of people who write racist graffiti have a less than perfect knowledge of grammar?!
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #350
The word isn't avoided by cultered people. Racist contexts are avoided by cultured people.

I suppose that would depend on ones definition of "cultered", wouldn't it.

Surely you cannot mean that the type of people who write racist graffiti have a less than perfect knowledge of grammar?!

How can that be true??? They're patriotic, damn you, they feel the polszczyzna to the very depths of their haplotype.
Harry    
4 Apr 2014  #351
To Harry, the wisest of ...
"Nigger" isn't the equivalent of "Murzyn". Its equivalent is "Czarnuch". How nice of you to really show your ignorance.

Could you perhaps quote the post in which I say that "n1gger" is the equivalent of "Murzyn"? No, you cannot: because I have never said that, so your suggestion that I did is just another of your lies.

Interesting that you have no comment to make on my statement that you consider the word 'n1gger' to be perfectly acceptable and correct, but then you have a hard time getting anybody here to believe otherwise.
ShortHairThug - | 1,104    
4 Apr 2014  #352
Could you perhaps quote the post in which I say that "n1gger" is the equivalent of "Murzyn"? No, you cannot: because I have never said that,

Yes you did, as a matter of fact yesterday on this very thread when you quoted Lenka.

Lenka:Ppl over 40 will use the word murzyn naturally and without any bad connotations.

So it's much like the word 'N1gger' in the south of the US in the 1960s.

This makes you a Liar no matter how hard you deny it.
Lenka 2 | 1,067    
4 Apr 2014  #353
Harry and Jon you are really trying to push it even though it's evident now I think that you are simply wrong.
As to the graffiti text- as Magdalena said- it's not only grammatically incorect- it's basically incomprehensible. No native Polish speaker would say that. However I'm sure both of you will tell us we are wrong :) After all who are we, mere native speakers, to argue with two language master minds like you :)
p3undone 8 | 1,150    
4 Apr 2014  #354
Lenka,well I am more inclined to listen to what you have to say about whether or not the term Muryzn is acceptable or not.
Lenka 2 | 1,067    
4 Apr 2014  #355
Thanks P3, I'm not saying the word won't disappear soon but it's something different to claim it's racist.
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #356
Lenka,well I am more inclined to listen to what you have to say about whether or not the term Muryzn is acceptable or not.

That doesn't really make much sense or add to the discussion - P3, have you spent much time in Poland or had much exposure to society there?
p3undone 8 | 1,150    
4 Apr 2014  #357
John357,you don't need to be insulting now,I haven't been insulting you.I have seen the native speakers disagree with you,so what?They don't know what they are talking about?
jon357 65 | 13,627    
4 Apr 2014  #358
I wonder why you think the post is insulting, P3. It would still be interesting though to know how long you've spent in PL and your exposure to the culture.

Anyway, it isn't about whether someone knows what they're talking about or not - more about trying to advance a political opinion about their dislike of the way language changes naturally with time and the external (and internal) influences on culture/language.

Where do you stand on the Ciemnogrod issue, P3?
p3undone 8 | 1,150    
4 Apr 2014  #359
John357,you meant to be insulting...oh I see,I don't mind if you chip in on my discussions at all.I'm chipping in,because I see you arguing with them over this word,and it would seem to me that they should know what they are talking about?
Harry    
4 Apr 2014  #360
This makes you a Liar no matter how hard you deny it.

Could you get any more utterly pathetic? I said that the word is used by certain people in much the same way as the word 'n1gger' was in the south of the US in the 1960s; I do not say that the word 'n1gger' has the same meaning as the word 'murzyn'.

Harry and Jon you are really trying to push it even though it's evident now I think that you are simply wrong.

Think what you want. The simple fact remains that while it was perfectly acceptable in certain circles in the USA of the 1960s to use the word 'n1gger', in other circles of the USA (e.g. the more educated and cultured ones) it was entirely unacceptable. As I said, it's much the same case with the word murzyn'.

As to the graffiti text- as Magdalena said- it's not only grammatically incorect- it's basically incomprehensible. No native Polish speaker would say that.

Not even one who learned very little about Polish grammar because he spent most of his school-days carving swastikas (backwards ones most probably) into desks? Magda appears to be too naive to even know why a racist might want a black person to be near a tree. But if you prefer to say that the graffiti must have been written by a foreigner because all Poles have perfect knowledge of Polish grammar, go ahead.



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