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IS "MURZYN" word RACIST?


jon357 65 | 13,654    
3 Apr 2014  #301
end of story

Far from it. See the dictionary definition above.

we won't change neutral words to suit the needs of the few

'we'??? So you're one of the gatekeepers of a language now - something even the Academie Francaise can't manage. Then again, I remember you saying that 'we' want a particular political party to be in office however the electorate evidently think otherwise.
Lenka 2 | 1,067    
3 Apr 2014  #302
One more thing- if I ever heard some scatter brain complain about the blacks it was either "Ci Czarni" or "Te czarnuchy" never ever "Ci murzyni". But I guess foreigners are right- Poland- rewrite your dictionaries!!! :D
jon357 65 | 13,654    
3 Apr 2014  #303
Dictionaries are constantly rewritten anyway to reflect the way languages constantly change. They're a picture of a language, not a book of rules.
Lenka 2 | 1,067    
3 Apr 2014  #304
Thank you for that piece of information- I REALLY didn't know that :D

BTW Jon- actually they are both but that's a different topic...
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
3 Apr 2014  #305
Dictionaries are constantly rewritten anyway to reflect the way languages constantly change.

And you will rewrite dictionaries for the Poles yes?? - thank you very much - call the EU for help - you won't achieve much on your own
Harry    
3 Apr 2014  #306
the word Pollack is no longer neutral

Just like the word 'murzyn'.

if it ever was

History shows that it was, even if you didn't know that.

we won't change neutral words to suit the needs of the few

Aren't you the all-powerful one.
gumishu 11 | 4,850    
3 Apr 2014  #307
the word Pollack is no longer neutral.

the word is neutral in my dictionary and in the dictionary of the most Poles - you are clearly a bigoted person
jon357 65 | 13,654    
3 Apr 2014  #308
And you will rewrite dictionaries for the Poles yes?

No. Those who update them do it anyway. And they are generally fairly worldly.
kot 2 | 24    
3 Apr 2014  #309
My dog's name is Murzyn :O because he's black :D,
personally I think of this word as inappropriate to call a black person anyway since I'm the foreigner:D :D my wife thinks the same.
Dzien dobry    
3 Apr 2014  #310
I'll store this under, who cares.
p3undone 8 | 1,150    
3 Apr 2014  #311
This is why I hate political correctness,words that were never perceived,or meant as racist,become so,because of a few control freaks,who decide that they don't like the word.
jon357 65 | 13,654    
4 Apr 2014  #312
More people with good manners not wanting to offend. It's irrelevant how a word was once perceived; it's when it starts appearing on graffiti that decent people unconsciously start to avoid it.
WielkiPolak 57 | 1,052    
4 Apr 2014  #313
This reminds me of a case I heard of where they wanted to take the word nigger out of Nigger Jim in Huckleberry Fin. They wanted to make a change in Mark Twain's book and have Slave Jim.

As for this case, it's silly to me. Looking at the thread topic, it seems that one football player brought this up 6 years ago. That is not enough. In the future is Poland is 50% black [hope that doesn't happen any time soon], then they can consider it, if it really does bother that many people.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #314
it's when it starts appearing on graffiti

I would like to see pics of graffiti with "Murzyn" used. I wonder why this word would be used when much "better" (irony alert!) alternatives such as "czarnuch" or "asfalt" are readily available?

I have seen so-called Canadian graffiti with texts such as "Your Mom is a nice lady" or "Sorry about your wall" - using "Murzyn" would give much the same effect in Polish.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czarna_rasa_cz%C5%82owieka#Nazwy
WielkiPolak 57 | 1,052    
4 Apr 2014  #315
The word doesn't hold any power in Poland since Polish people in Poland did not own black slaves and call them that word. It is simply a term for a black person other than just calling them black. It's almost like saying Caucasians. That is another term for some white people, that is an alternative to the term 'white.' Nobody gets offended by it, and white people would call themselves Caucasians too.
jon357 65 | 13,654    
4 Apr 2014  #316
did not own black slaves

There you go again, talking about history as if people live in the past and as if the current nuance of a word is predicated entirely by the past.

I would like to see pics of graffiti with "Murzyn" used

Come to Poland and have a look. Down the road from me there's a wall with 'Murzyny do drewa' and 'Zydzi won' written on.

But then again, you prefer to live somewhere where people are a rather more careful about the words they use.





Lenka 2 | 1,067    
4 Apr 2014  #317
Jon, it's funny that yet more POLISH ppl told you the word is not racist yet you continue to argue
And as to your graffiti: someone used the word Żydzi - do you think that word is racist or offensive as well? Should we change that word as well?

You get funnier with every post.
BTW- I do live in Poland my whole life so the argument you shot at Magdalena won't work here
jon357 65 | 13,654    
4 Apr 2014  #318
That, doesn't mean they're right - it only means that there are several people online with an opinion There are plenty of people who speak Polish (of whatever nationality) who avoid the word.

But hey, since you don't think that words that originally were neutral in tone offend, Lenka, I'm sure you and the various Pol=Ams here don't mind being referred to as Pollacks.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,109    
4 Apr 2014  #319
MURZYN has been a neutral word for ages and I hope it still is. However, some people try to create (or better say: invent) a new linguistic reality and assign a rasist meaning to this word. There is really no need for that since other offensive words like "czarnuch" or much worse version of it, namely "asfalt" exist already. "Murzyn" has long been established in Polish literature as a neutral description of a black person, just as other descriptions which denote humans of non-white skin colours such as ""mulat" or "metys" or "indianin". The most known example of this neutral usage in literature is a poem for children written by Julian Tuwim (Polish poet of Jewish origin):

Murzynek Bambo w Afryce mieszka,
Czarną ma skórę ten nasz koleżka.
Uczy się pilnie przez całe ranki
Ze swej murzyńskiej Pierwszej czytanki.

It is worth noting that the first Polish black PM John Godson (came to Poland from Nigeria) who commands the Polish language very well often uses the word "Murzyn" for desribing himself in a perfectly neutral sense.
jon357 65 | 13,654    
4 Apr 2014  #320
That's his right. He's a strange person.

However, some people try to create (or better say: invent) a new linguistic reality

That happens anyway without people 'inventing' anything. Maybe you'd prefer Polish to be frozen like Latin on the day you emigrated.
Lenka 2 | 1,067    
4 Apr 2014  #321
No Jon, it only means that we won't buy it when some foreigner tells us the word is offensive when in fact it's not.

But hey, since you don't think that words that originally were neutral in tone offend, you Pollack Lenka, I'm sure you don't mind such words being used about you.

That word alone doesn't offend me, it's the way someone would use it. And besides- where the word Polack the original English word for a Polish person? Because the word murzyn was just that- a word to describe dark skinned person.
jon357 65 | 13,654    
4 Apr 2014  #322
So in fact, you don't like that your language is changing and that cultural influences sometimes originate from people outside your country.

Really, you can get as irritated as you want - while language changes anyway.
Lenka 2 | 1,067    
4 Apr 2014  #323
I don't care if the word with get out of use- I said it already. What do irritate me is someone who tries to lecture me on my language. And talking bs along the way.

Murzyn is not racist. Period. If you want to live in your fantasy word then go ahead, it won't change anything.
kot 2 | 24    
4 Apr 2014  #324
If I may, can somebody explain me why in the pics jon posted is used "murzyn" instead of some version which is an insult for black people ? Because it rhymes ?
jon357 65 | 13,654    
4 Apr 2014  #325
Because it rhymes ?

All words rhyme with something.

What do irritate me is someone who tries to lecture me on my language.

So in fact it's purely nationalistic - you think that the view of someone who was born elsewhere is less valid than yours. There was a time when the Polish language was used over a wide are by a lot of people. Then its use declined. Now that decline is partly reversing - whether or not you like the changes that brings.
Harry    
4 Apr 2014  #326
In the future is Poland is 50% black [hope that doesn't happen any time soon]

Those of us who actually live in Poland know that Poland gets more black by the day. And as that happens, the despicable bigoted views which you pollute this place with become less and less common.
Lenka 2 | 1,067    
4 Apr 2014  #327
Don't put words into my mouth Jon, it won't work. If someone isn't a native speaker he may perceive a word in the wrong way however it doesn't change the original meaning of the word. And you, instead of asking, are trying to push your own understanding of the word down our throats. It simply won't work cos you are wrong.

It's like I used some word in English, I was told that it's the wrong word to use in that context but I told you you are wrong cos I know better.
kot 2 | 24    
4 Apr 2014  #328
All words rhyme with something.

It was a question for the poles Jon. Considering it's a neutral word why it's used in thos pics, they could've used one of the insulting versions to make their point.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,109    
4 Apr 2014  #329
Maybe you'd prefer Polish to be frozen like Latin on the day you emigrated.

I have never emmigrated from Poland. I have been living here since the day of my birth and have been totally totally immersed in Polish for 50+ years, have never left Poland for more than six months, and am not using any other language in speaking than Polish in my everyday life, so I'm perfectly aware what I am talking about when I'm talking about the word "Murzyn" (and I don't prefer Polish to be a frozen language). "Murzyn" as a "racist" word is a pure invention which will never catch on (of which fact black Polish MP Godson is indeed a very good example).
Magdalena 3 | 1,837    
4 Apr 2014  #330
Because it rhymes ?

I would guess so.

BTW, thanks for the pic. There is a Brazilian player in Korona Kielce, it seems, and some fans don't want him for some reason. In this case, they are calling him Murzyn because of his darker skin, not because of his ethnicity. Someone picked the word "Murzyn" because it rhymes and conveys the meaning that the "poet" wanted to convey (we don't want the dark guy on our team). Unfortunately, you cannot forbid anyone to use any word, including neutral or positive terms, in a negative context.

Down the road from me there's a wall with 'Murzyny do drewa'

I hate to nitpick, but that's not Polish, not even slang Polish or uneducated Polish. So maybe, if you make mistakes like this when quoting graffiti, your command of Polish is not that great after all, and some nuances might escape you?

Speaking of introducing language change, what do you think of this:

banbossy.com

Do you think this is a legitimate process?

I don't.



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