Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

A nice description of the difficulties in some of the languages in current use on the planet, Lyzko. I agree with you on German; inflections of 'der', 'die', 'das' in three genders of singular or plural depending on whether the noun is accompanied or not by an adjective may seem nearly as catastrophic for a Polish learner of German as the world of the declinations of nouns for th German learner of Polish.

Nobody here has been talking of the difficulties in using Polish collective numerals for quite a long time now! I have been tracking the spontaneous use of them by native Polish speakers in the streets or elsewhere since the latest discussions on this issue in this thread. I might write down some of my observations here when I have more time and if anyone is still interested in the subject!

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

I've never asked myself the question why the names of many towns and villages come in plural in Polish. Such names are so common that I"ve just been taking it for an obvious fact for years, but indeed this does seem bizzare!

Is there a precedence of this in ancient languages? The -s ending in the English name of Athina, Athens, would suggest the plural in the original ancient Greek name? In Polish the name is explicitly plural: Ateny. Also, the Polish name for the Roman town of Pompeii is plural: Pompeje, although you may sometimes find it in singular: Pompeja.

Supposedly your explanation for the plural only form of drzwi in Polish is right. And then we inevitably come again to the so-much-hated problem of Polish collective numerals: jedne drzwi, dwoje drzwi, troje drzwi, czworo drzwi, pięcioro drzwi ...

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

All my points go to you, Lyzko! Imagine that your theory as to why the names of certain countries come with 'na' instead of with 'w' was exactly what I had thought while turning off my computer after having read the post of Seanus. I do agree with you on that: some countries, probably not "countries" at all at that time, were merely seen as "territories" or vast fields or "lands" by the ancient users of Polish, while others were seen more as organized "units" with defined borders, so the users were employing "w" in their cases.

Language evidence that would corroborate this theory is that we say: na polu, na obszarze, na równinie. But we may also say: na polach, na obszarach, na równinach, which may perhaps justify why some of the names of countries or lands come in plural - na Węgrzech, na £użycach, na Morawach.

The geographical names of "areas" requiring 'na' apply only (or mostly) to the neighbouring areas: na £użycach, na Morawach, na Węgrzech, na Słowacji, na Rusi, na Litwie, na £otwie. What strengthens this theory further is a fact that all Polish provinces were accordingly seen as neighbouring lands by the tribe of Polans who, before unifying all these lands into one Poland, viewed themselves as living within an area, that is 'w Polsce', while viewing other cousin tribes as living in areas beyond their own land, so living 'na Pomorzu, na Kujawach, na Mazowszu, na Śląsku'.

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'Na' with island states is obvious because we first mean 'na wyspie/na wyspach' by saying that; Japan with 'w' (as well as Ireland for that matter) is also obvious as we first of all see it as a country, then as an island or a set of islands.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]

As with all theories, it's good to have those who disagree with them (that's how our knowledge progresses, doesn't it?). Still, this case seems pretty obvious: 'na' is employed with the names of territories (not countries or states) in more or less vicinity of the Polans or the Vistulans, hence more or less familar to those tribes than other more distant areas. I myself may add some more convincing exceptions to this theory than those given in this thread. The first exception would be the territory of our direct neighbour "Prusy" for which we employ 'w' instead of 'na', so it is 'w Prusach'. But then, I wouldn't be surprised if the Polish of the Middle Ages were using 'na Prusach'. There is no written evidence for that as it's too an early period for the written Polish, however. Then the Prussians of the Middle Ages (Prusowie) and their language had disappeared and new inhabitants of these lands took over their name, but in Polish the name of the new inhabitants was slightly changed to distinguish them from the original ones (now they are 'Prusacy'). No doubt that the preposition that goes with the name of that territory, now a state rather than a territory, may have changed into 'w Prusach' (formerly in the old form 'w Prusiech').

In fact, only four examples escape the theory: w Niemczech, w Czechach (both should have 'na'), on the other hand: na Węgrzech, na £otwie (both should have 'w'). In my view, the main reason is that at the time when these usages came into existence, Germany was a well established country, while Hungary may have not been such one (sorry, I'm not a specialist in medieval history). Also, but it's a secondary reason, in the Middle Ages Germany was separated from the Polans by the territories of cousin Polabian Slavs, like £użyce, so the 'w' preposition could have been employed with 'Germany' just as it was with 'France' or with 'Denmark'. As to the Czechs, the tribe of Polans received Christianity and some forms of modern church (at that time the same as state) organization from their hands, so the preposition might have changed as in the case of the Prussians in addition to the fact that the Polans were separated from the Czechs by the tribes of Silesia.

As to the case of 'na £otwie', it might have followed the example of 'na Litwie', due to the similarity of sound in these two names. A good contemporary examplification of using 'na' with the names of territories inside Poland is using forms like 'na Lubelszczyźnie', 'na Opolszczyźnie', 'na Sandomierszczyznie', denoting areas of regional size around their main towns. These are understood as areas without any clear boundaries, though some of them may form official provinces these days, borders of which may be subject to change now and again.

Language / Polish was chosen the HARDEST LANGUAGE in the world to learn... :D [1558]


It is because it should always be 'w' when used with the names of mountains; 'w' will always be used with the noun 'dolina'; it is 'w górach', 'w dolinie', you will never say: 'na Bieszczadach, na Tatrach, na Andach, na Pirenejach, na Himalajach'.


For the medival tribes of Polans or Vistulans 'Mołdawia" was as far as Bulgaria or France or Bavaria, so they would have never treated it in the terms of 'a well known area in the vicinity', they would have applied 'w' naturally, even if the name was known or popular with them which I doubt.


It is becasue it should be 'na' with 'wybrzeże', regardless if it's a region near a sea-line (na Lazurowym Wybrzeżu) or a country or anything else. The thing is somewhat similar to the phenomenon in German where you say das Maedchen and not die Maedchen, although the person is a girl, but the -chen ending matters more than the sex of the person. However, although the term 'w Wybrzeżu Kości Słoniowej' sounds a little awkward, it is used these days along with the term 'na Wybrzeżu Kości Słoniowej', possibly to underline that we talk of it in terms of a state.

News / Zloty exchange rates - is this just speculation? [87]

From what I've read in the Polish press, the Zloty has weakened following the Euro dropping as a result of the aggreviating crisis in Greece.

The Greek drama currently being staged on the financial scene suggests that other EU currencies may be seen in line with the strength of the common currency.

Part of the Greek troop may soon be moving to Portugal and Italy and Spain to help prepare the national versions of the play, so there stands a good chance for the tickets in euros for this not-so-"classical" performance to get cheaper still. Some even say the UK authorities would be quite happy to invite the Greek troop to stage their famous piece in The West End.

News / Zloty exchange rates - is this just speculation? [87]

Then, if this assumption is true, we should talk of a strenghtening Pound rather than of a weakening Zloty, as the Pound would appreciate against all other curriencies, not the Zloty alone.

I don't believe in the theory of the artificially weak Pound. It is still too major a currency to be kept artificially low for so long. In other words, the economic prospects for the UK are judged rather "modest" by the markets, so they do not think high of the Pound. Do you think the Tory Party back in government will change the judgement of these prospects dramatically? And what if Nick Clegg wins, will it be equally good for the Pound as the victory of David Cameron?

Just for the matter of record: the British Pound is valued at 4,50 Zloty today, the Euro at 3.91, and the US Dollar at 2,94.

News / Zloty exchange rates - is this just speculation? [87]


Very true! It's nothing when you win in one bet. It's still nothing when you win in five bets out of ten. It's good when you win in eight or nine bets out of ten.


To be good in investing you have to stick to self-discipline, not to your emotions. So they say!

News / Zloty exchange rates - is this just speculation? [87]


You must know the story of a guy who wanted to throw himself out of the widow of a tall office building in London as a result of a stock market crash, but while he was struggling with the double glazing, the market recovered !?

... and the Zloty at the moment is up at 4,81 from yesterday's closing at 4,92. On the way to recovery?

Law / WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS OF THE EURO CURRENCY TO POLAND? [101]


Why shoudn't we? In accountancy and the financial world in general there are lots of instruments to measure someone's credibility and their accuracy in reporting. If the highly-paid EU officials don't want to apply these instruments, take everything as plain truth, and let countries lie to them, why shouldn't we ask them: what are you paid for? what is your role? what is your responsibility as a central banker of the common currency?

News / Zloty exchange rates - is this just speculation? [87]


First, I wonder why you calculate the annual devaluation rate of the Zloty with the accuracy of the second decimal point (224.52%), yet you asign your dollar/zloty ratio not a too precise value of "almost 3.30" ? Which is this famous University of Statistics and Mathematics that has taught you to be so imprecise in one thing against being so exact in the other?

Second, the present rate of the Zloty against the Dollar has gone down to 3,0452, so it may effectively ruin your calculation of 18.71% loss in a month, I am afraid.

Could you please calculate the new exact monthly and yearly devaluation rates of the Zloty?

Language / Etymology of samochod and other related automotive words [12]


It would be interesting to compare the vocabulary of the car in Polish and Czech. I don't know Czech, but, as usual, some Czech terms might sound funny to the native speaker of Polish. One of such terms is "vozidlo" which means "samochód", or "letadlo" which means "samolot". The common Polish terms for 'car' are also 'wóz' or 'auto'. The slang words for it are 'bryka' or 'fura'. Most vocabulary referring to the car seems to be of Polish origin: skrzynia biegów (gearbox), podwozie, bagażnik, kierownica, kierunkowskaz, but 'karoseria' seems to be of French origin (carrosserie = body of a car).

News / Poland gets a little bigger:) [82]

The problem of Zaolzie is a song of the past. In the (circa) 1910 census about 80 per cent of its population declared Polish as their native language. After the WWI, a joint Polish-Czech Commission was set up and agreed on the line dividing the Polish and Czech parts of the territory of the former Principality of Cieszyn which was much more favorable to Poland than was the later state border. But then the government in Prague did not recognize this agreement, and having found Poland military engaged in the war with the Bolshevik Russia, ordered its forces to move in beyond the agreed line, up to the river Olza. This new line became a state border, but then the Polish government forced Czechoslovakia to cede Zaolzie to Poland in 1938 in the face of her difficult position against Hitler and the Third Reich. That was undoubtedly a 'knife in the back' of our neighbour, and no one should have any doubt about it. In 1945 the communist government of Poland offered to exchage Zaolzie for the Kotlina Kłodzka region in the newly acquired from Germany Silesia province to settle the dispute once and for ever. Unfortunately though, the then communist Czechoslovakian government demanded some one third of the territory of Silesia in exchange, the demand that was turned down by the Warsaw government.

At present, about 10 per cent of the Zaolzie population only claim to be Polish. Now Zaolzie sometimes sends us over pop artists like Halina Mlynkova who are able to sing in perfect Polish, but who decide to retain their original Czech surnames.

News / Poland gets a little bigger:) [82]

Our dear Harry, telling others that they speak like children, is a big child himself. The Polish government taking part in the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 did not act as a sovereign party. Please go and read a history book, Harry.

In my view, the Polish invasion of Zaolzie in 1938 was a knife in the back of the neighbour, regardless of any earlier circumstances surrounding the division of the Principality of Cieszyn.

News / Poland gets a little bigger:) [82]

What do you mean by "other states"? The only one I can think of in terms of "Soviet puppets" is Romania. But then you should have written "unlike the only one ..." which makes a big difference when it comes to people like you who are extremely precise about dates and facts ...

History / What do Polish people think about Belorussians? [38]

As usual, history plays an important part here. Indeed, there is nothing about Russia in the opening post of Białorusin, yet Sasha says:


"I hate Russians" and "to attract the Poles" are crucial phrases here. So let's remind everyone that the teritory of today's Belarus had never been subjected to Russian rule until 1772, that is the year of the first partition of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Until Belarus became part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, it was comprised of independent principalities. In fact, Belarus had been remaining part of the Grand Duchy ever after, until the 3rd of May Constitution abandoned the formal administrative duality between the Kingdom of Poland (called the Crown) and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1791.

As a result of adopting this Constitution, a war broke out between Russia and the Commonwealth in 1792, the war in which the Commonwealth was defeated, the Constitution abandoned, and another part of Belarus was "handed over" to Russia as a result of the second partition. The remainder of the country (of 215.000 sq. m.) might have existed to the era of Napoleonic wars, had it not been for the Uprising of 1794 led by Tadeusz Kosciuszko, born in Mereczowszczyzna on the territory of Belarus, a veteran of the American Revolutionary War, which led to the third and final partition of the Commonwealth in 1795. Thus the remaining part of Belarus became Russian.

Since then, the Russians seem to think that Belarus was theirs since the beginning of time. In reality, the Belarussian language was using the Latin alphabet until the Cyrilic alphabet was imposed on them by the Russians. The Belarussian language was also the official language of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania until Polish replaced it in that role in 1697.

Law / EU citizen residency certificate to live in Poland [34]


You should not confound the ZUS with health insurance. These are separate things. ZUS, as its name indicates - Zakład Ubezpieczeń Społecznych - deals with social security, that is with your pension and the like, whereas the cost of your health insurance (ubezpieczenie zdrowotne) is deducted from your salary to the account of NFZ - Narodowy Fundusz Zdrowia.

Law / EU citizen residency certificate to live in Poland [34]

SeanBM
I think it is the case - ZUS acts as the intermediate between accounts. The 9% of the employee's gross personal income forming the health insurance sum is financed as follows: 7,75% of it is deducted from your PIT and the remaining 1,25% is deducted from your net personal income.

therobside
You can either pay an insurance to the NFZ, or you can buy an insurance with a private company.

History / What do Polish people think about Belorussians? [38]


Belarus is 'White Ruthenia', not 'White Russia', but many people confuse that. Still, if you say that the term 'Belarus' was invented by the Russians in the 18th century, what about the areas of 'Red Ruthenia' (Ruś Czerwona) [in Ukraine], 'Black Ruthenia' (Ruś Czarna) as well as 'White Ruthenia' (Ruś Biała) that existed well before Cathrine II had swallowed almost the whole of the GDL in her unquenched imperial appetite for new territories?

News / Warsaw a "big winner" in city life quality index [26]


Not quite. In a number of country dialects of Polish, 'Polak' would be said 'Polok', so the Chicago people of that Polish descent would spell it 'Pollock' in English.

Work / What jobs pay 10,000 zlotych per month? and Where can i find one? :o) [101]

Fantastic story, TransAtlantic (btw, isn't it the title of one of the books by Witold Gombrowicz). Good to have people on the forum who see things in proper light. Someone is asking: 'what jobs pay 10,000 zlotych per month? and where can i find one?' while saying nothing about his/her qualifications.

Life / Electricity bill 1400zlt 5 months. [18]


I think it's not right. Either the meter may not be operating properly or someone else apart from you may be connected to it. Try to check the meter when every electric device at your flat is switched off.

Language / Nazwy mieszkanców - the names of a city/country residents in Polish [14]


This is a rather difficult question. As far as I know there isn't any rules, we just say what is phonetically convenient. For many names there may be two versions like, for example, for the inhabitant of Warsaw: you may call him 'warszawiak', and it is common as in the saying 'nie masz cwaniaka nad warszawiaka'; you may also hear the form 'warszawianin/ warszawianka' which is perhaps a little more formal.

For the names you asked:
Kraków - krakowianin, krakowiak / krakowianka
£ódź - łodzianin / łodzianka [we would not say 'łodziak']
Białystok - białostoczanin / białostoczanka

Most commonly, you use the -anin ending (gdańszczanin, szczecinianin, gdynianin), sometimes you use -iak more often than -anin (poznaniak vs. poznanianin).

Language / Polish and other slavic language differences [60]

My God! Polabian has been extinct for about two centuries now!

Upper Sorbian is closer to Czech, whereas Lower Sorbian is closer to Polish.

Czech and Slovak would be extremely difficult to distinguish for me, but I have the impression that some of the Slovak vocabulary is closer to Polish than the matching part of this vocabulary in Czech. I think that Slovak doesn't have the diacritical marks in the shape of unfilled little circles.

Croatian and Serbian will be very difficult to distinguish between them if the samples are written with the same alphabet.

Belorussian has quite a number of words imported from Polish.

Po polsku / informacje na temat pracy w olsztyn [3]

Ogólnie, sytuacja na rynku pracy w woj. warmińsko-mazurskim jest trudna. Jest to województwo, gdzie stopa bezrobocia należy do najwyższych w kraju (o ile nie jest najwyższa w kraju). Nie oznacza to, że pracy dostać nie można. Dobry, uczciwy i solidny pracownik fizyczny lub budowlaniec (zwłaszcza taki, który nie zagląda zbyt często do kieliszka) albo sprzedawca ma szanse prędzej czy później znaleźć pracę. Czy dobrze płatną? - to już całkiem inna sprawa.

Genealogy / Is your line of the Polish family noble? [74]


Princes and princesses, n'est-ce pas ? But what you've so shrewdly noticed is not true. Poland had very few princes and princeses until the end of the First Republic (or as others translate its name: Commonwealth) which ceased to exist in 1795. The reason for that was that Poland did not aknowledge any noble titles except the general status of a simple nobleman (szlachcic). You could then be either a nobleman or a non-nobleman (a peasant or a bourgeois). The only princes of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (these were about a handful of families) were the original princes of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania who were granted the continuation of use of the title of prince in the Act of Union of Lublin in 1569. On top of that, the Sejm had awarded the title of prince to the Crown (not Lithuanian) Poniatowski family in the second half of the 18th century.

All other noble titles after 1795 were being given to the Polish nobility by the three powers which partitioned Poland. So if you think the titles were awarded in abundance, you should attribute such abundance to the actions of St. Petersburg, Berlin and Vienna. If you try to diffuse Soviet-style propaganda here by quoting the 19th century French sources, you should at least indicate these sources.

History / Lusatian-Sarmatic obsession of Poles [153]

Frankly, I don't understand your point. Who on earth are Lusatians? For me, they are '£użyczanie' or 'Serbołużyczanie', a Slavic folk living west of the river Oder in Germany. The overwhelming majority of Poles living in Poland do neither care about Lusatians in any historical sense nor about Sarmatians. The theory of Sarmatians is a mockery to modern Poles. As someone vividly interested in Polish history, I judge this theory a pure mockery, too. If you listen to Polish people who emmigrated abroad a long time ago, you should not take their views as the same as the views of 'home' Poles. Their views on Sarmatians or Lusatians as you report them remind me of an opinion of a certain Polish intellectual who once said that the Polish-Jewish conflict 'emigrated' to New York after 1939-1945 all along with the emmigration of a number of prominent Polish and Jewish 'pre-war' people to America. As a result, the Polish-Jewish problem had completely died out in Poland (except for a tiny minority of 'connaisseurs'), while it has been remaining alive in New York all these years.

Language / Nazwy mieszkanców - the names of a city/country residents in Polish [14]

They who live in Koło, I would call them:
'zakręceni Kolanie' or 'skołowani Kolanie'.

When they're having a partiularly good time, they may be called 'rozkręceni Kolanie'. But locals from neighbouring towns and villiges would perhaps call them 'Kolaki' ('Kolak' in singular).

Language / 'jestem po weselu' [8]

It is colloquial, frequent and natural. In standard (or written) Polish it should be "byłem na weselu' or 'wróciłem z wesela'.

Language / 'jestem po weselu' [8]

"Jestem po weselu" could be a good example of a Polish "Present Perfect" tense. As such one doesn't exist in Polish, speakers 'invent' it in situations where it is desired. The phrase uses the present tense verbe 'jestem' and combines it with the preposition of time 'po'. Such a sentence matches almost perfectly the English 'I've been to a wedding', much better than do sentences like 'Wróciłem z wesela' or 'Byłem na weselu'.

Another example could be: 'Jesteśmy już po dwóch dużych piwach', stressing the effect of us having just drunk two beers, so the English equivalent: 'We have had ...' is something that immediately comes to mind.

Other uses of this "Present Perfect" type (colloquial as they are) might be: 'Mamy już za sobą dwie/trzy strzelone bramki' or 'To kolokwium mam zaliczone' or 'Mam zdany ten egzamin''.