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Is your line of the Polish family noble?


Polonius3 994 | 12,380
5 Jun 2010 #1
Whether any coat of arms is attached to a given Polish surname can be found in any armorial. Much more difficult is determining whether someone's line of a given family was of noble rank. In different periods of time and depending on which surname was involved, from several to maybe 12% of a name's bearers were of gentry background. Only a professional genealogist can conduct the necessary research and try to find the answer. One such firm is the Institute of Genealogy. Those interested may visit:

instytut-genealogii.com.pl/index.php?lang=en
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jun 2010 #2
I've noticed that you are doing a lot re: genealogy here
but I would like to point out few things that most of Polish Americans should be aware of:

1. if your family has Polish roots/other European (Russian, German) you can easily assume that your European roots are Jewish
2. if so, you'd have nothing to do with Polish 'nobility'
3. if your predecessors emigrated to USA between mid 19th and early 20th century they did so because a/ they were Jewish, b/they were poor

4. if your surname is the same as a place in Poland, it's not because you come form a 'noble' family; it is because a/ poor people usually assumed names of their landowners or places they were born; b/because Germans 'named' them during the germanisation process (since mid 18th century in west/north west Poland); this naming was based on a/ place you were born, b/ occupation

Worth noting is that Jewish population in Poland didn't use any surnames until 18th and 19th century. But once Poland was divided between Russia, Germany and Austria there was a requirement for all, and most of all Jewish population, to have surnames.

So, if your name is Czajka or another, don't assume you come from Polish nobility. The surname, in most cases, was taken on because of the law introduced by those who ruled Poland since 1772.
z_darius 14 | 3,965
5 Jun 2010 #3
1. if your family has Polish roots/other European (Russian, German) you can easily assume that your European roots are Jewish

Jews, depending on the historic period, constituted anywhere between (roughly) 0% and 10% of Middle and Eastern European populations. So based on that we can assume, and easily at that, that all descendants of Poles, Germans, Russians etc are Jews, but not Poles, Germans or Russian. These, after all, composed only 90 to 100% of the respective populations.

Interesting.
Wroclaw Boy
5 Jun 2010 #4
I'm writing on this thread to remind myself to pop back, my wifes parents from both sides were aristocrats stripped of everything by the Russians.

The cases have been bouncing around the courts for years.
vetala - | 382
5 Jun 2010 #5
2. if so, you'd have nothing to do with Polish 'nobility'

False. Some Jews were ennobled for service to the country. And every Jew who converted was automatically ennobled.
[rp.pl/artykul/139640.html]

Ennoblement neophytes in Poland date back to the reign of John Albert , who was in 1499 . Baptized into the nobility in Lithuania Stanislaus Oszejkę .

The constitutions of the Sejm of the Republic XVI - XVII century . Essentially no more mention of uszlachconych konwertytach jewel among the crowd recipients of nobility , which makes the determination of the number of converts ennobled quite impossible .


Here's an article about it. It explains everything, shows some of the coats of arms of families of converts and a partial list of surnames.

I have a confirmed noble ancestry, by the way.
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jun 2010 #6
Interesting.

very - believe me

I discovered an online library not long ago and started to go through some of the books they stored online...I found that my region/town/surrounding area didn't have any Jewish population until late 18th century.

But, doing a school project about German occupation in my town, I found out that there was a strong population of Jews prior to the war. Not huge, but pretty strong. For example, if I can remember numbers correctly - 177-something (year) - 0 Jews, 179-something - 56, 18-something - over 100, and it grew.

Other towns and cities noticed similar increase...from null to hundreds - and Im talking late 18/beg of 19th century. Some of this is documented which makes interesting study.

Can't say much about south Poland, Galicja etc; but for the north Poland there are plenty of docs.
z_darius 14 | 3,965
5 Jun 2010 #7
very - believe me

I don't believe. I look for facts.

So based on one small region with a couple hundred Jews you assume that all Poles are in fact Jews.

Can't say much about south Poland, Galicja etc; but for the north Poland there are plenty of docs.

OK, so in Southern Poland and Galicia the situation may have been different but you still think that all descendants of Poles, Germans and Russians are Jews.

Have you even read the nonsense you posted?
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jun 2010 #8
And every Jew who converted was automatically ennobled.

"jeśliby Żyd który albo Żydówka do wiary chrześcijańskiej przystąpili, tedy każda osoba i potomstwo ich za szlachcica poczytywani być mają". Jednak samo ochrzczenie nie powodowało automatycznego przejścia do stanu szlacheckiego, lecz było uwarunkowane zgoła innymi czynnikami (język, kultura, majątek, koligacje czy protekcja). Zawężona interpretacja tegoż przepisu i praktyka spowodowały, że wielu ochrzczonych Żydów zaczęło uważać się za szlachtę ...

The same conditions were applied in 18th century Prussia. Poor Jews were being gotten rid off while the rich ones were left in Prussia whit an 'upped' status.

Great you quote a very interesting article, but please read it to the end.
Not 'everyone' and not 'every'. As the article states, misinterpretation on part of Jews. They assumed they'll become noble if they become Christian.

I don't believe. I look for facts.

then start reading some of th books and other documents here:
wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra

So based on one small region with a couple hundred Jews you assume that all Poles are in fact Jews.

my region was the initial one; I started to check others - link above;
all Poles - where? in America?

OK, so in Southern Poland and Galicia the situation may have been different but you still think that all descendants of Poles, Germans and Russians are Jews.
Have you even read the nonsense you posted?

You said 'facts and figures' so please do refer to them first before you start assuming I'm talking BS.
And yes, based on what I saw and read, I'd dare to say that most of Polonia (old Polonia) is of Jewish descent.

the WBC holds a huge number of books, documents, reports, population lists etc etc which date back to 16th century. And cover pretty big part of Poland, including Silesia in some cases.
z_darius 14 | 3,965
5 Jun 2010 #9
You said 'facts and figures' so please do refer to them first before you start assuming I'm talking BS.

You already offered figures, even if you don't realize that.
According to your statements, if the number of Jews in a country, say Germany, is up to 10% then the people living there, and their descendants are Jews. From the other angle, you suggest that if 90% of people are Germans that means they are Jews.

I wonder, does the number of Jews increase as their numbers decrease, the other way around, or both?
vetala - | 382
5 Jun 2010 #10
Not 'everyone' and not 'every'.

But 'many' if not 'most'. My point still stands - a person can be of both Jewish and noble descent.
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jun 2010 #11
twister

I gave figures of Jewish population since late 18th in my town (increase from 0 to X), not saying anything about Polish or German population
it's not my assumption - it's yours
z_darius 14 | 3,965
5 Jun 2010 #12
Really?
So what does this mean:

1. if your family has Polish roots/other European (Russian, German) you can easily assume that your European roots are Jewish

nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jun 2010 #13
you are right there - it was my assumption based on the numbers

BUT, i didn't go as far as you putting it in percentage and assuming further away

what I assumed was that IF your predecessors emigrated from Poland (or any other region that used to be Poland) within a certain time frame there is a huge possibility that your roots are Jewish or poor.

And that's what I stand for.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
5 Jun 2010 #14
I've noticed that you are doing a lot re: genealogy here
but I would like to point out few things that most of Polish Americans should be aware of:

I noticed that you're a focking brainless moron but i would ike to point out why:

1. if your family has Polish roots/other European (Russian, German) you can easily assume that your European roots are Jewish

Given that Jews were a minority in Europe/Poland and minority in migrations to USA only a mental cripple such as you could assume anything of sorts.

2. if so, you'd have nothing to do with Polish 'nobility'

There was a LOT of Ruthenian nobility that became Poles, some Jews as well so another of your points just got flushed.

3. if your predecessors emigrated to USA between mid 19th and early 20th century they did so because a/ they were Jewish, b/they were poor

C. They were persecuted.
D. They were invited by family.
E. 100 different reasons that you lack the brain power to conceive of.

4. if your surname is the same as a place in Poland, it's not because you come form a 'noble' family;

No? So i guess Zamojscy family who were magnates so f*cking powerfull their private army was the size of some smaller state armies in Europe and who lived in Zamość were not nobles? F*cking retard.

In other words sir you have no bloody idea what are you writing about, every and all of your points are made by an uneducated chimpansee who felt the need to produce something but since he's just a focking monkey it ended up as it did.

Stop writing about Poland and read a book or ten, none of your statements are valid or true.
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jun 2010 #15
Sokrates
lol

Given that Jews were a minority in Europe/Poland and minority in migrations to USA only a mental cripple such as you could assume anything of sorts.

Really? Given that most of Jews in Wielkopolska were given marching orders before 19th century and chose emigrating to the sacred US of A, I think you are right. It was minority. Of those who stayed/were allowed to stay and took on German surnames.

There was a LOT of Ruthenian nobility that became Poles, some Jews as well so another of your points just got flushed.

ah, 'Ruthenian'. I've noticed American like to refer to 'Ruthenian' on this forum. Ancient history - move on! Ruthenia is a Latin word for Russia so please, do not read it as some 'noble died long time ago tribe'.

If you are 'Ruthenian' you lived in a certain geographic area. Get over this.

C. They were persecuted.
D. They were invited by family.
E. 100 different reasons that you lack the brain power to conceive of.

c - by whom? and why?
D - no idea; I know my great visited (I stress - VISITED) USA
E - I dare to say you are unable to conceive a single one

So i guess Zamojscy family who were magnates so f*cking powerfull their private army was the size of some smaller state armies in Europe and who lived in Zamość were not nobles?

where did I apply, at any point, to all of the emigration?

You are full of shite, pardon my language
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
5 Jun 2010 #16
Given that most of Jews in Wielkopolska were given marching orders before 19th century and chose emigrating to the sacred US of A, I think you are right.

Polish history lesson 1-0-1 in no region of Poland in no period of Polish history did Jews constitute more than 10% of population.

ah, 'Ruthenian'. I've noticed American like to refer to 'Ruthenian' on this forum. Ancient history - move on!

I'm Polish, born and raised in Poland.

Ruthenia is a Latin word for Russia so please, do not read it as some 'noble died long time ago tribe'.

Ruthenia means current day Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, parts of Balkans, small bits of Poland and Lithuania so no Ruthenia never meant Russia, the only connection Russia has with Ruthenians is ethnicity and even then thats iffy since Mongols made sure there's no pure Ruthenians.

Basically Ruthenians were all Slavs except Poles and Czechs.

c - by whom? and why?

Partitioners for obvious reasons.

where did I apply, at any point, to all of the emigration?

Your claim is that partitioners changed peoples names (which is rubbish) or that being named by place of brith indicated someone was a peasant which is equally rubbish since most small time nobles took on the names of their primary seat of power be it a town, a village or a manor.
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
5 Jun 2010 #17
Polish history lesson 1-0-1 in no region of Poland in no period of Polish history did Jews constitute more than 10% of population.

You are really boring. I didnt apply any percentage at any point. And yes, you are correct - they weren't. But read and understand. And check the numbers of Jews who a/ emigrated, b/changed their names in 18th century under the German rule.

Polish history 1-2-1

I'm Polish, born and raised in Poland.

And you still refer to Ruthenians? Wonder why... family roots?

o no Ruthenia never meant Russia,

beton; that's all i can say

Basically Ruthenians were all Slavs except Poles and Czechs.

correct and incorrect. Check wit Slovaks first.
And their common name was Rus. Plus variations depending on region.

Partitioners for obvious reasons.

yeah; and not only Jews for that matter.

Your claim is that partitioners changed peoples names (which is rubbish) or that being named by place of brith indicated someone was a peasant which is equally rubbish since most small time nobles took on the names of their primary seat of power be it a town, a village ...

My claim is that:
yes; they did; Jews didn't carry surnames until partitions - fact; read about it; if I am a moron you should be able to find out the info in a split second

the rest of your sentence is equally rubbish
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
6 Jun 2010 #18
Given that Jews were a minority in Europe

Ive got 14 synagogue's / congregations within a spitting distance, jews are not a "minority" they just keep themselves to themselves so we're just not aware of how many there are, I imagine its the same as in America - and as for your information a lot of Jews did cross the atlantic to escape persecution in Europe - why do you think Israel is filled with wealthy American Jews?
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
6 Jun 2010 #19
Ive got 14 synagogue's / congregations within a spitting distance, jews are not a "minority"

Shelleys they keep erecting that stuff left right and center but population wise they're a minority.

as for your information a lot of Jews did cross the atlantic to escape persecution in Europe

Define a lot? Not even 1/10th of Irish for example.

why do you think Israel is filled with wealthy American Jews?

Its not, its filled with european Jews, American Jews are a relatively small part of the population having no incentive to budge from US.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
6 Jun 2010 #20
Shelleys they keep erecting that stuff left right and center but population wise they're a minority.

You live in Poland how would you know what its like where I live? You lot got rid of Jews, we have thriving communities :D Rather them than the alternative, at least they're clean and decent.

Define a lot? Not even 1/10th of Irish for example.

You might want to examine those figures when you look at the population of Ireland at the time of their first mass exodus (my GGG grand father was one of them that ended up in England not America and there were 1,000s like him that ended up here)..There were Jews travelling from all around Europe for decades, some may have not openly admitted they were Jewish because they wanted a new start - just because they dont all don funny hats and scream from the roof tops its Yom Kippur it doesnt make them less Jewish..Unlike the Irish they dont need to make statements like St. Pats day..

Its not, its filled with european Jews, American Jews are a relatively small part of the population having no incentive to budge from US.

I think you'll find most of the cash comes from American Jews and I think you'll find there are a lot of American Jews with Israeli passports (our Jewish posters could possibly varify this?) - the blatant disregard for European Jews was shown by the fact they used European passports for the Mossad attack in Dubia, there were no American passports!

Shelleys

Dont be so formal, you can drop the S, Sock! ;0)
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
6 Jun 2010 #21
Dont be so formal, you can drop the S, Sock! ;0)

I'm not formal you've been shouting at me for calling you Shelly so long i got scared! You're a scary woman and it takes a lot to scare me given i served in Vietnam, Cambodia and aboard the Death Star!

You live in Poland how would you know what its like where I live?

TBH i've no idea but i didnt see a lot of 'em in London, mind you most of them stay hidden, they're sly bastards those Jews.

I think you'll find most of the cash comes from American Jews and I think you'll find there are a lot of American Jews with Israeli passports

Yes and yes but they dont live there, out of a mouth of a guy i know who's Jewish, you can be safe and comfy in US or comfy and not safe at all in Israel.

Right now its even more severe, many Jews are leaving for US since you dont want to raise your kids in a country sized bomb shelter.
Amathyst 19 | 2,702
6 Jun 2010 #22
I'm not formal you've been shouting at me for calling you Shelly so long i got scared!

At least spell it correctly - Shelley - I mean the ShelleyS Thats just an initial :D

You're a scary woman and it takes a lot to scare me given i served in Vietnam, Cambodia and aboard the Death Star!

You might be on to something there my team always do as I tell them ;0)

TBH i've no idea but i didnt see a lot of 'em in London, mind you most of them stay hidden, they're sly bastards those Jews

You didnt venture to Golders Green then..Nothing sly about them there..

Yes and yes but they dont live there, out of a mouth of a guy i know who's Jewish, you can be safe and comfy in US or comfy and not safe at all in Israel.

One American who said this...oh right it must be true :D

Right now its even more severe, many Jews are leaving for US since you dont want to raise your kids in a country sized bomb shelter.

Did this American tell you this? Again it must be true, there's a mass exodus of American born Jews from Ireal, I must let the DM know that all the European born ones are staying there..
z_darius 14 | 3,965
6 Jun 2010 #23
IF your predecessors emigrated from Poland (or any other region that used to be Poland) within a certain time frame there is a huge possibility that your roots are Jewish or poor.

Wrong on both counts. The status of nobility in Poland, unlike in some other countries, did not mean the person was rich. Hence, the fact that some emigre may have been poor does not meat that person was not of one of the nobility lines of Poland.

I general Polish nobility was divided into various groups, and the lowest of them (still szlachta) were the following:

* szlachta szaraczkowa
* szlachta zagrodowa
* szlachta zagonowa
* szlachta cząstkowa
* szlachta zaściankowa
* szlachta okoliczna
* szlachta drążkowa
* szlachta chodaczkowa
* gołota

All the above groups varied, in their material status, from today's lower middle class to today's welfare recipients.

The reminder of emigration from the territories of Poland, Germany and Russia were predominantly Germans, Ukrainians, Poles, Jews and Russians - pretty much in that order. Hence the likelihood of someone emigrating from Central/Europe being a Jews was unremarkable.
Sokrates 8 | 3,345
6 Jun 2010 #24
You didnt venture to Golders Green then..Nothing sly about them there..

Jews are sly, even if they're not sly they're sly.

Again it must be true, there's a mass exodus of American born Jews from Ireal, I must let the DM know that all the European born ones are staying there..

Yeah he basically said that if people had a place to bug out to they did, people who stay are tropical Jews and kids of euroJews.

I was amazed how divided they are, basically American Jews sh*t on every other type of Jews, its like a food chain dependent on where do you or your grandparents come from.

Wrong on both counts. The status of nobility in Poland, unlike in some other countries, did not mean the person was rich.

It only meant that a person couldnt work or it was risking their family jewel (coat of arms aka nobility).

In practice nobility still worked, the most numerous were "Szaraki" who often didnt own anything and worked in junior positions in military or administration both private and state owned.

The line between peasant and noble with these guys was fluid and blurred untill late XVI century so quite a few people with "peasant" names still retain their coats of arms to prove otherwise.

Also another thing to remember, at the time of immigrations XV-XVII century Jews had it made in Poland, it was THE country to be, protection and priveliges galore, heck Poles suffered but Jews did not.

Even during the partitions they simply switched sides and sold their loyalty to the higher bidder (partitioning states) and had it good, Jews from central or eastern Europe had no reason or incentive to budge untill late XIX century.
plk123 8 | 4,142
6 Jun 2010 #25
1. if your family has Polish roots/other European (Russian, German) you can easily assume that your European roots are Jewish

oh, i wouldn't assume that, for sure.. many poles in the states have no jewish roots at all.

2. if so, you'd have nothing to do with Polish 'nobility'

that just goes for 99.99% of poles anywhere in the world.. including the ones in PL.. some poles have grand illusions about their backgrounds..

b/they were poor

maybe that.. the jewish thing is not an angle i would assume at all unless ones name is of jewish origin..

But once Poland was divided between Russia, Germany and Austria there was a requirement for all, and most of all Jewish population, to have surnames.

maybe, maybe not.. that is not a hard fast rule at all..

I'm writing on this thread to remind myself to pop back, my wifes parents from both sides were aristocrats stripped of everything by the Russians.

see my comment about many poles being delusional about their past.

So based on one small region with a couple hundred Jews you assume that all Poles are in fact Jews.

yeah.. most poles here in the states and canada are catholic.. that kind of doesn't jive with his theory

Have you even read the nonsense you posted?

lol

They assumed they'll become noble if they become Christian.

wouldn't they cease to be jews then? it doesn't make any sense otherwise..

And yes, based on what I saw and read, I'd dare to say that most of Polonia (old Polonia) is of Jewish descent.

so how come they are overwhelmingly catholic... see above about being a catholic and a jew.

Stop writing about Poland and read a book or ten, none of your statements are valid or true.

lol.. i agree there bud. :D

E - I dare to say you are unable to conceive a single one

oh, i think he gave you a couple where you only had one that was because they were jews.. lol

c - by whom? and why?

why does that matter? seriously

where did I apply, at any point, to all of the emigration?

not all but most or majority or whatever other words you used that really mean a hot bunch and that is simply false

I didnt apply any percentage at any point.

see above..

and not only Jews for that matter.

sure looks like you're back peddaling now.. because you basically insinuate the it was mostly jews.. which it was never "mostly"..

why do you think Israel is filled with wealthy American Jews?

there are more russian jews then american ones in israel

Ive got 14 synagogue's / congregations within a spitting distance, jews are not a "minority" they just keep themselves to themselves

so you live in a predominantly jewish area.. that doesn't prove anything.. have you ever heard of the census? LOL.. "we" know who's where..

Its not, its filled with european Jews, American Jews are a relatively small part of the population having no incentive to budge from US.

certainly

I think you'll find most of the cash comes from American Jews and I think you'll find there are a lot of American Jews with Israeli passports

yes because they jews in USA have more money then the ones in EU.. and USA allows dual citizenship for jews.. the last part doesn't prove anything

Shelly

because you keep forgetting he E not the S..

Again it must be true, there's a mass exodus of American born Jews from Ireal, I must let the DM know that all the European born ones are staying there..

they are leaving too.. the prez of israel is an american however..
nincompoop_not 2 | 192
6 Jun 2010 #26
There's nothing more frustrating than reading on PF 'there was no Poland'. There was Poland. There were Polish people. Yes, the country was split, yes, the country was governed by others but to hear on here lame explanation 'there was no Poland'?! Which woodwork have you come out of?!

As for generous bunch of replies

The reminder of emigration from the territories of Poland, Germany and Russia were predominantly Germans, Ukrainians, Poles, Jews and Russians

Im withdrawing the Polish Jew statement.
Most of them were Russian/German/Galician Jews because Poland actually didn't exist.

No idea why so many 'Polish' Americans think they've got Polish roots or belong to Polish nobility.

oh, i wouldn't assume that, for sure.. many poles in the states have no jewish roots at all.

no? ah, yes, they come from Polish nobility; or are German Russians and anything else but Polish.

'they were poor'

I put it in the context of Jewish community but of course the same goes for Poles, Russians, Irish, Germans - whoever was leaving Europe after Napoleonic wars,

Poles had other reasons to emigrate before anyway (partitions) - that's why States got Kosciuszko and Pulaski; most of Polish 'intellectuals' -writers, scientists etc, and nobility emigrated mostly to France and Germany after 1848.

maybe, maybe not.. that is not a hard fast rule at all..

I seriously recommend reading Polish history books. I repeat again, most of the Jews, since mid 18th century had to be named. Surname adoption happened in all parts of partitioned Poland.

wouldn't they cease to be jews then? it doesn't make any sense otherwise..

Yes, they wouldn't, obviously. But then if you have Vetala or whoever making a claim that her Jewish family is noble - I don't dispute it. I don't think that anyone was checking every generation if they stayed Christian or not, or if they married into Christian families or not.

Another thing, have a look at the Warsaw digital library, looks for books dating back to 19th century. According to them surnames reflecting weekdays, months etc (so Poniedzialkowski, Czerwinski, Lipinski, Sierpinski etc) are new names which were given do Jewish converts back in the 16th century.

plk123 As it happens all over the world, some of the Jewish emigration might have not admitted they were Jews. They were persecuted one way or another in Europe over the years, and for the same reason they might have assumed/converted to RC after arriving wherever they were arriving.

The rest is not worth replying.
For those who assume they are noble because of surnames, quick check here:
wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=71636&dirids=1 (it's a list of Polish noblemen as of 1887)and another one, the same year, genealogy of Polish aristocracy

wbc.poznan.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=70288&dirids=1

and as for plk123 and z_darius - you are welcome to use this library to read about Jewish population in Poland and in other countries but Poland between 1772 and 1918
yehudi 1 | 433
6 Jun 2010 #27
the prez of israel is an american however.

Ha! Shimon Peres was born in Poland.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
6 Jun 2010 #28
He was only 11 when he left and he was born in Belarus ;0 ;)
z_darius 14 | 3,965
6 Jun 2010 #29
No idea why so many 'Polish' Americans think they've got Polish roots or belong to Polish nobility.

How many say that?
plk123 8 | 4,142
7 Jun 2010 #30
There was Poland.

find me one map that showed Poland during 18th century..

no? ah, yes, they come from Polish nobility; or are German Russians and anything else but Polish.

you said that not me.. but the truth is the most pf poles here aren't of jewish blood.. besides, most jews consider themselves jewish and nothing else.. not polish or russian or german but jewish

that's why States got Kosciuszko and Pulaski;

they cam to the USA to help fight for it's freedom as both of these generals had a lot more experience doing so then Washington..

Surname adoption happened in all parts of partitioned Poland.

my comment was to your statement that their surnames were always place name or some other foolishness like that..

plk123 As it happens all over the world, some of the Jewish emigration might have not admitted they were Jews.

there was definitely no such prosecution here in the states until the klan days..

Ha! Shimon Peres was born in Poland.

damn, i meant PM.. Binyamin Netanyahu

How many say that?

seems like many on this forum plus many poles i know think they are nobles.. lol


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