Life / British living in Poland - documentary [42]

I lived there 1991-94, when it was only just coming out of the shroud of Communism, and have been back periodically, and have constant contact. I had a lot of interesting observations to make about it from when I was there, and how it has changed now. Happy to talk.

It was still a place where in a city of half a million, where I was, there was only one real 'bar', and a couple of restaurants. There were dance halls. There were 7 cinemas, and depending on which type of film one felt like watching, one chose the cinema accordingly. You could smoke in them, too. And it was really something if you knew someone who owned a car. They told me of how only recently the lists had finished - you had to be on a list for 5 years or more to get a car. So those who had them in 91 were people who had waited literally years, and probably had 'connections'.

There were hundreds of corner shops, and no supermarket. Only in 1994 did a supermarket appear - EuroSklep - although it didn't really have much in it. But it did have trolleys : )

Oh, I have so many stories, if you want. And now I go back and ... have to say that as a visitor, I preferred it as it was. I don't like wandering around huge hypermarkets and seeing bewildered old grandmas with barely enough to buy a loaf of bread counting out their small coins at the cash desk. I find the juxtaposition of people from a previous era and the present grating, with an awful pathos. OK, sure, fine for the younger generations ... but there are a hell of a lot of older, greyer people who have it harder now than before. Their world has literally evaporated around them.

I liked it before, how it was. I went back and searched for those fabulous cinemas, and they were all gone. There was a multiplex. I hate multiplexes. Why would I want one of those? I have one at home. They are too loud; they are impersonal; they are commercial. They lack everything that those seven cinemas had.

And ... so on.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


I agree. It should be that if you get pregnant through carelessness and you say you don't want the baby, you have to give birth and then decide. If you still don't want it, the baby is adopted.

Now I bet THAT would halve the unwanted pregnancy rate overnight ...

Life / British living in Poland - documentary [42]

Yes, that is what I hear all the time - that they would have far preferred staying as they were.

One lady, in her late 60s, was the Chief Registrar for all marriages in this large city of half a million people. She was well paid in comparison to everyone else; she had a great pension to look forward to. She worked for 35 years, and when she retired, Capitalism arrived, and overnight her pension dropped so much in value that it practically disappeared. She now has the equivalent of about £200 a month, and her outgoings are £350 before food. Her life has literally been ruined by what has happened - completely changed, and for the worse. She is not living in the country she lived in before. It has disappeared, along with her pension.

Change brought freedom, yes - for the upcoming generations. Most of the older people are too tired or ill or just set in their ways to 'make the most' of their 'freedom' - in fact they are in more of a prison than before. What does it matter that now they can get on Ryan Air to Luton if they want? They don't want to.

Life / British living in Poland - documentary [42]


I was posting facts as told to me by Polish people in Poland. Not my own facts.

The car business - ok, well in 91 I knew maybe 60 Polish people, and I knew only three who owned a car. One was a taxi driver and yes, got it from Germany. One was a journalist who told me about the list and waiting and said he had waited 8 years. And one was the brother of an extremely famous sportsman who was very rich.

The pension business - that is it as told to me by the lady, my ex-mother in law. Regardless of zeros, her point was that she had worked a long time, with the belief that on retirement, she would be comfortably off. After the change in government and opening up to the West, the value of her pension dropped. That may be because of inflation, but whatever - the net effect was that whereas she would have been well off, she, maybe not overnight but certainly over a relatively short period - perhaps a couple of years - became a relative pauper. She could not survive and could not buy the medication she needs without help from her son.

When I said I liked it better before, I meant that particular city in the early 90s, rather than now. Not in the 80s. I have no experience of that.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


First thing: we are not living in Ireland in the 1850s. Women are not going to be stoned to death if they have a child out of wedlock. And in the UK at least, we are so compliant that the idea of your standard Next-shopping, M&S-loving late 20-something even knowing what an 'underground abortion' is, is fairly unlikely. They go to the GP, and do what she says. So if the GP says 'Lovely! You're going to have a baby'!' the woman says 'Oh yes! Lovely'. It is like that here. Believe me.

In Poland ... there is more of a sense of self-determination, I know. So I guess women might there say 'Huj ... ok ... you don't want to sign the piece of paper ... I'll ask Magda to talk with Kamilek, who will be able to get Jacek to fix me up with some pills, and that will be that ... ' - and that, to be frank, is her choice.

If a woman is so stupid as to go for an unregularised abortion, without medical control, then on her own head be it, as far as I am concerned. Yes, I can understand it in Ireland in the 1850s. I can understand it in London in the 1960s. But not anywhere in the EU in 2012.

UK, Ireland / Do Polish Immigrants in Great Britain hate each other? [60]


I'm not sure that the average British person has much contact with Poles ... and those who persevere on here are not really average (she says ; ).

I kind of work with Poles, in a freelance way, and I sleep with one, and have a child with him, so I suppose I am on the inside. Do I think they are mostly good people? Hmm. Yes, but not in the British sense of good. They do things that in a British person would make them not good, but in a Polish person that doesn't make them not good. One has to judge them according to original context.

I have to say that I find the men more 'good' than the women, in general. I know Polish guys who are just the people I would have wanted with me in Colditz. The women I wouldn't have trusted - they would have slept with the Germans in a flash, and slit the throats of any other women coming close.

And that war reference isn't unintentional. I absolutely hold by it that the Poles mostly still live in a wartime mentality. And the rules are different.

As for the gangs and scroungers, that is just native Polish survivalism at its best. I have an admiration for it in some ways. Why not?


And I, as a British citizen, say ... GREAT. If we have such a silly system that it can be so obviously and openly used, then hey, why not. They are not doing anything wrong. It is all legal in the EU. If the system is so stupid, then it doesn't deserve any respect.

It is a system that also syphons millions if not billions of revenue into wars in Afghanistan, etc, which is a ludicrous abuse of money and responsibility. Why can't we be like those Scandinavian countries that always keep out of it all? They are happy, and women have two years' paid maternity leave there!

Every Thursday in Oxford, on the way to the hospital, they have a sign up. 'Delays due to Repatriation'. For a while I wondered what that meant. Repatriation? Sending immigrants back to their country? What could it mean? Why the roadblock???

And then I found out. Repatriation means bringing back soldiers who have died in Afghanistan. Bringing them back and blocking the road so their funeral cortege can make its way up to the crematorial wing of the hospital. And it happens every week, so there must be at least one local person a week who has been killed.

Now if we are so stupid as to spend millions on sending our compatriots off to die horribly for someone else's oil issues, then ... who are we to be taken seriously? And if some other EU members can legally exploit the system then ... why not. It is all bo**cks.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


If getting pregnant is that desperate a situation, she should make sure she doesn't get pregnant in the first place. Krotko na temat.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]

Not if you don't have sex.

The point is, pregnancy should be so respected and taken seriously that if getting pregnant is such a disaster, then the woman should not have sex in the first place. Or, if she does with contraception, she should accept that it isn't 100% effective, and if she happens to get pregnant, she should honour that.

This whole thing is about respect and honour. And easy abortion encourages lack of both.

Life / British living in Poland - documentary [42]


Yeah, I was also totally freezing in 91-94, but you're right, couldn't blame that on the political system ... but anyhow, the Poles had their methods. Ten minutes of being specially wrapped up in scarves, under-garments, ear muffs, hats, gloves, tights, boots, overcoats, etc, before being allowed out the door. Sensible.

The bus journeys by street light at 4pm for hours on end in that dreadful slush WERE dreadful ... but aren't they now as well? I suppose more people have cars, or can avoid the journeys. Don't know. But living in Poland, it's gonna be cold in the winter, whatever the government ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Berni, I also learnt the same, and certainly anyone who wants to get pregnant also believes that. If they don't want to be pregnant, they say they aren't sure when we can say it really is a human life (as opposed to Martian, I guess) and that means that up until a certain point, if they have an abortion, they aren't killing anything. Cool idea, huh? Great way out. ; )

UK, Ireland / English/British rudeness - what do Polish people think about it? [117]


What are you talking about?
The common use of thee/thou/thine/etc. went out centuries ago! Yes, there are some vestiges of it in some Northern dialects (I'll si' thi' later) - but this is dialect.

I really don't think one can say that there is a familiar or singular form of 'thee/thou' in Modern English - that is just misleading. If so we would teach 'I - thee/thou - he/she/it' ... come on : )


Hmm ... sorry, but going through your description, I can't see the rudeness. Now you know what that means? It means that in the cultural code in which those people have been brought up, they weren't being rude - so they weren't being rude. In the same way that if a Polish person is very direct with me, I can't take it as rudeness, because that is not their intention, so you shouldn't read the behaviour of these Brits as rude.

Example 1:
The old lady wasn't being patronising. If it was cold, and there were only three seats, and you were sitting in the middle, and are a man, and they are old ladies ... well, even as a younger woman I would straight away jump up and move over so they could sit down. To my mind, that you had to think about it was a tad ... rude. They were old, and cold too. Even if they hadn't been ... but usually the older female is offered respect and help.

When you did finally move, she was grateful, and thanked you - and in our language, she wasn't being effusive - that is just how we talk.

Actually she was rather polite, because she didn't ASK you to move - she just waited to see if you would. And that is another thing - we have an unspoken code of behaviour. The done thing would be to move. If you hadn't have moved, she wouldn't have asked - because it is your moral responsibility, your conscience, and she is well-brought up enough not to ask.

Example 2:

Again, two girls together on a train. You have your bag under a fold up seat, so effectively parked in that space. It is totally normal and not in any way rude for someone to say 'sorry - would you mind moving your bag?' - she was saying this because she didn't want to barge in, pull down the seat and possibly trample on your bag - and she also probably waited because she was checking that you really had just put the bag there, and not that you were in some way using the seat.

I just can't see the rudeness in either of these situations ...

And as for the language, what you might see as exaggerated politeness, etc, is just the way we speak. If you don't adopt that, you will always seem slightly rude/foreign ...

Genuine rudeness to me is, for example:

I have been standing in a queue at the post office in Poland for c. 30 minutes. We are all bundled up in layers of clothes as it is minus 20 outside, but the post office is boiling hot - only people keep opening the door, and then it is momentarily freezing cold. It is very uncomfortable in the queue. I get to the front, and just as I go to move forwards, an old woman digs me in the ribs with her elbow, and stomps on my foot as she pushes past me. She doesn't apologise, either, and she just carries on with her business.

Just tell me how that isn't rude ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


What are you talking about?!! I barely understand this ... they would have to be fertilised eggs, wouldn't they? And sorry to say it, but yes, I would value the life of my child over that of a baby chicken, I would.

Anyhow, that would also mean that anyone who eats born chickens is also a hypocrite, because that is also killing something. But this is a bad parallel, and it trivialises the real matter.

Life / Why is circumcision not practiced in Poland? [701]


Have to say that sounds quite viable as an argument ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


yes it does, and I think the soul exists before coming into the body. So I had a sense of my daughter's presence before she was even conceived. Sounds crazy and you will all just say I am stupid, etc, but I felt it, in the same way that you can feel people after they have died. But it was weird, as it was before she was conceived. She was conceived about a month after that. So you can see why I think abortion is off-limits ...

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Well, I feel I was forced into it, by the 'convenience / choice / woman's rights over her body / career before motherhood' etc. beliefs of our country, so yes, I do feel astoundingly angry and wronged. But I have learnt to just pocket that somewhere deep inside me now, because it isn't possible to live properly and dwell on something like that.


No, I don't think we are ... I think I was just saying what I thought, as were others, but as you say, it is such a nebulous area that we can't possibly draw any conclusions other than that maybe we don't know everything.


I couldn't go so far as to say that, but I do know that in my opinion, I knew as soon as conception occurred ... it was an extraordinary feeling, and conviction. And I had a vision of her having jumped into her physical self - a bit like jumping on a ski lift. She had made the leap, landed sure-footedly and was now getting on with it.

Of course others will now laugh, mock, say that is all fantastical rubbish ... but I don't care at all, because I have no doubt about what I felt. If you are walking along and bump into a lamp post, you don't doubt that. I feel as certain about this.

But I know I have to stop giving my 'personal' experiences, because they are also dismissed - so I guess let's go to that whole huge body of work & discussion called Catholicisim, or Christianity, or Buddhism, or Islam, or whichever religion you choose ... they all talk about the soul, as far as I know. Hindusim. Reincarnation. It's all there. I am no expert at all, but my experience would suggest to me there is something in it.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]

That's good : ) Thanks for saying so - otherwise it would just be my 'experience' and not a proven 'fact' ; ) ... but if it happened to you, too ... : )

Love / If you're a Polish person.. Before you marry a foreigner... [7]


I can only imagine : D

Life / Please help me, with deciding a good Polish name for my baby boy :) [48]

In my humble opinion, probably the most lovely Polish name I have come across (and I came across it late) is ... Rafal.

I like it because it has a kind of romantic feel to it ... Raphael.

It is a strong name. And 'Raffy' or 'Raf' is very popular in successful circles in the UK at the moment.

Aleksander is always good.

Oliver should be Olivier (which I rather like).

I like Kuba and Kacper, but that is just me.

Rafal Dariusz is a sexy name, I think. Piotr Dariusz is much more well-behaved.

It depends who you want him to be ... : )

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]

yeah, but there is a difference between, e.g., a baby dying because it catches a disease, or someone cutting up a perfectly healthy baby with scissors because they can't be doing with him/her at the moment, because, e.g., they haven't yet bought a flat in London and they're still only renting (the reason one work-mate of mine gave for needing an abortion) ... isn't there? Because that is the reality of what we are talking about here.

Forget all this nonsense about prostitutes and drug addicts having abortions because they love their unborn children so much they wouldn't want to bring them into this terrible world. Fxxk that. The abortions those of us who abhor them abhor are those, I think, where women are emotionally and economically stable, and just happen to fall pregnant through, e.g., drinking one glass too many of Chardonnay at the Cafe Rouge on the way home from work, falling into bed with a colleague, and oops, preggo. Or even worse - also in a stable relationship, but although they've been together for three years, she hasn't quite found the GP job she was looking for yet (waiting a few months for a placement in a better area), and he still has the last year of his law conversion course to do, so it doesn't really suit them yet ... next year would probably be better. And anyhow, their flat only has two bedrooms and a box room, and they use the box room as an office and need a spare bedroom for friends to stay, so where would the baby sleep?

It is this kind of decision (and the equivalent in Poland) that seems so deeply flawed and unacceptable.

UK, Ireland / English/British rudeness - what do Polish people think about it? [117]


I'm sure you do ; )

Life / Please help me, with deciding a good Polish name for my baby boy :) [48]

Teddy. (Tadeusz)

Love / Polish couples living out of wedlock? [108]


That seems sensible to me. I like that.

And being married does make a Catholic Polish life simpler, at least.

If one wants to live a Catholic Polish life.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Sperm are not a whole life. They are just a catalyst, and provide half the person. So, before they have met the egg they are just an ingredient, in the same way that the egg is.

When they come together and fertilisation occurs, at that moment they cease to be separate ingredients and become a real living whole being who is at the very start of their human existence as a unique entity.

I just don't understand what is so hard to get about that, and how anybody could argue otherwise. Call me stupid.

(and thank you, p3, by the way, for not thinking what I said rubbish : )

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]

The thing about the morning after pill is that you have no way of knowing whether fertilisation has occurred. With abortion, you know it has occurred. That is a big difference.

However, yes, I agree, the morning after pill could constitute termination of a life.

I'm uncomfortable about the morning after pill, precisely because you don't know whether you are terminating a life or not. I don't like it and personally wouldn't want to take it. However, it doesn't feel as clearly wrong as an abortion, because you don't know if you're pregnant or not. Which in itself is completely unsatisfactory.

The point about abortion is that it is the knowing decision to terminate a life. The morning after pill is more of an 'erm - ok - just in case I'd better make sure that if I have created a life, it can't develop into a stable pregnancy'. But that is still not OK.

It is all horrible, and should all be avoided. That is what I will tell my daughter.

News / Abortion still under control in Poland [2971]


Yes ... fertilisation occurs usually in the fallopian tube ... the fertilised egg moves down into the main body of the uterus, and implants ... the morning after pill makes the uterine lining unreceptive, so the fertilised egg can't implant, so dies ...

Love / "In Poland a lot of women work and their men don't"? [7]

@adeona
To be frank, how it 'works' in Poland, or wherever, won't help you much here.

Your guy is studying. He is concentrating on that. He doesn't feel the need or have the energy to do anything other than that. You know that, and that is why you have been doing what you're doing, because you love him.

But what you are doing is tiring, and the responsibility with the money is draining. So first you tell him how you feel, and he says sorry ok but I am studying. Then you try to find cultural reasons for making him help you ... sorry. This isn't going to work. People don't operate like that. So, what - you say 'But in Poland the man is supposed to support the family' and he says 'oh, cripes, sorry, yes, forgot - let me go get a job in Pizza land at the weekends and until 3 am so you don't feel so bad' ... would be great, but you know it won't happen.

In terms of Polish culture, students usually are students - for years - until their late 20s even - and they have a kind of respected, untouchable status because they are 'studying'. Yes, they do sometimes work jobs - but not if they have a working partner ... Until your guy is in the workplace, he is dependent. And you are supposed to understand that and work now, because in the future he will be able to earn well because of his studying now.

Can you both cope on your salary at the moment? Is it possible? If you can live on love and adrenalin, do that.

He hasn't got there yet - you aren't yet seeing him being a man - he is still a student.

And would you really want him to be the big breadwinner, and you the zero? Because if the man does all the work, then the woman does what she's told. Do you want that? Think about it.

I would personally earn the money, live frugally, have a lot of sex and be happy, in your situation.

But that is just my opinion, and I am a bit bohemian, I think ; )

Love / Aliments and abortion (I was married to a Polish guy) [64]


So where are you living now? Somewhere on the 1k a month, 4 months pregnant?

Ok, you have three things to deal with here:
- The emotional upset of him marrying you then suddenly dumping you as you are pregnant, and wanting to kill your joint child, and not supporting you in pregnancy (that is a big one)

- The financial/practical issue of how to support yourself and be ok and have a home on your own in a foreign country, pregnant for the first time (and recently dumped)

- The anger no doubt you feel about him having 30k per month, less 3 k for previous kids, and only giving you 1k (that is bad) (I would be cross)

- The responsibility as the only loving parent at the moment (although that could and probably will change once the kid is here) of thinking about stable home to bring child into.

You have A LOT on your plate, and now your parents have gone, and you are alone in coldening Poland. You poor thing ; (

Ok, answers:

- For now, think about how he must have loved you to marry you, and how this pregnancy has for some reason thrown him, and how he needs time, and for the baby to be born for him to come to himself and work out his feelings. I think maybe he will want contact with you and the baby, and everything is possible, so just hold on and try not to be upset. You have done nothing wrong, and he just has a funny bone and this has taken him wrongly ... so bide your time. Poczekaj, as they say. Be patient.

- In your pregnant state, stability of home and emotions is important, so your baby will be happy and everything will be good. I think you have a case for meekly asking him for more generous financial support at the moment - lay it out on paper, your outgoings, your needs, etc, and see where that gets you.

I don't think you should be working, but I don't know who you are or what you do. If there is something you could do by email/online/etc. then try to do that, because any money you can earn is your independence and security for you and your child.

- Make some friends, and surround yourself with people who are on your side. Have two or three women ready to come with you for the birth, or get your mother or other family member lined up. Be self-sufficient and organised. You will need support after the birth.

- Plan to be honest, decent, and undemanding, as far as the father is concerned. Be firm that you will have the baby, but wait for him to come to you. Gently and fairly frequently remind him that you love him, are having his child, and are waiting for him.

And if he doesn't come round, then focus on your lovely child and both your futures. You will need to decide whether you stay in Poland or go back to Asia, but either way, the child is a gift, and it would be great if he could understand and share that, but if he doesn't, then you and your family and future husband will.

You can't force him to do anything. You can divorce him yourself. But I would wait until the baby has been here a while before you make any decisions at all. This kind of situation is one where it could all change.

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]

Which nationalities are the best?

Polish-English children rock, as far as I can see. They are bright, beautiful and strong. I have two of them. Good gene mix.

Having said that, I am a mix ... English, Welsh, Scottish. A true Brit! Green eyes, wide cheekbones, blondness ... it goes well with the Polish fire. My kids are stronger than me, and take no prisoners. I like that about them. They don't mess around.

I think that Brits coming into Poland are a good thing. We are more flexible, responsive, open-minded and warm than any other Europeans I can think of ... we are not so stuck in our ways. We are open to propositions. Which makes us good chameleons abroad. We've always been good at going native : )

Love / Are there any swingers club in Poland? [52]


and every guy is circumcised? ; )

Life / Poland needs more immigrants and their children - which nationalities are the best? [518]

Why not? And why does Ukraine have to join the EU for that to be OK?? Stuff the EU. What is it, but a construct between 'successful', self-protecting clans??

All the Ukrainians I know are very nice. Why not?