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Posts by pawian  

Joined: 30 May 2008 / Male ♂ 		Last Post: 19 Mar 2025
Threads: Total: 226 / Live: 154 / Archived: 72
Posts: Total: 27461 / Live: 21378 / Archived: 6083 		From: Poe land
Speaks Polish?: Yes, but I prefer English
Interests: Everything funny

Displayed posts: 21532 / page 664 of 718
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pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

LOL! I wonder why you edited out the link to that source

I wanted to prepare a better one! :):)

@Harry Don`t bother, jon said it is an untrustworthy source. :):):) You should believe him, shouldn't` you? :):):)

To know what word was actually used in that original Sejm declaration of 1923 you would have to dig in the archives.
pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

So, Economist has become an authority on historical issues.... :):):)

And yes, it was 17,700 people moved there.

Never mind, my 9000 against your 17 something doesnt` really matter. The fact is that there was sort of Polish ex-military colonisation in the East in 1921-25 and Ukrainians/Belarussians objected a lot because they wanted to take the land for themselves.
pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

To jon:
The military settlement of the Eastern Borderlands has a lasting place in the history of the Second Republic, even though it only included some 9000 soldiers who actually fought for independence during the 1914-1920 period.

Clearly I need to repeat for the third time,

Is that all what you are able to achieve here??? :):)
pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

No. from 1921 until 1939, with most of the terror after Pilsudski's death.

Oh, I see, catching at a straw again. :):):)

Sorry, you shouldn`t combine such a broad perspective. Right now we are discussing what you call "stealing the land" and it was taking place from 1921 to 1925.

Indeed I understated the number. It was 17,700 not 17,000.

I read about 9000.

Stealing property is stealing property, no matter how you try to excuse it or justify it.

:):):) You will say anything to have the last word. But I hope you do realise it is just plain stupid. :):):)
pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

We tried to discuss this topic with you like an adult, but instead you just act like a child; so, no silly accusations, just statements of fact.

What facts are you stating? You only talk about stealing. When I ask you to explain how it looked like, you both shun the answer.

:):):)

Don`t be silly. Taking over the land after former Russian owners like tsars, clergy and aristocrats ( who had acquired it earlier thanks to Polish partitions) who got exterminated or expelled by the Bolshevik Revolution isn`t stealing. Are you crazy??? :):)

Are you trying to suggest that the 17,000 veterans

It seems you are mixing facts from different periods. :):):) And your numbers are wrong too.
pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

It has been proven that the Second Republic moved people into stolen property.

How was it stolen exactly? Can you explain?

Don't have time, or don't have the facts on your side.

It is you who don`t provide facts, only resort to silly accusations. When I ask you to explain, you play stupid verbal games until someone else posts sth useful for you to catch at a straw.
pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

And the consequences are that it's an article worth reading. Very even-handed.

So you can`t explain.

In the future you should be more careful with quotes and links. Somoene may ask a question you won`t be able to answer! :):):)

I wonder if you're trying to suggest the Poles were innocent of any crimes in pre-war Volhynia?

Jon, do you read my answers to your posts???? :):):)

What did I say a few posts above???

Seized from land owners is seized from land owners.

hahahaha too late, my dear.

PS2. You shouldn`t play so low. As an intelligejnt person, you are aware there can be different kinds of seizure, aren`t you??? Seizing land from a Russian aristocrat whose rule had been terminated in Kresy by Bolshevik Revolution isn`t the same as seizing the land from poor Ukrainian peasants.
pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

Might I refer you to the Act on Nationalization of North-Eastern Powiats of the Republic "ustawa z dnia 17 grudnia 1920 r. o przejęciu na własność Państwa ziemi w niektórych powiatach Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej".

I know about this one, it allowed the Polish state to own the land formerly controlled by Russian tsars, clergy, officials and landowners.

So, actually, that land never belonged to local Ukrainians or Belarussians.

Did you not bother to read my last post?

Harry, why so impatient??? :):):)
pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

Someone's having a bad night!

hahaha no, I just returned from our 1 week holiday to finish the discussion. :):):)

Jon, as a responsible poster you should be aware of the consequences of quoting, linking ajnd suggesting to read articles. Don`t you understand that doing so you adopt the way of thinking presented in the article???

Again, I am asking you: what seizure of land are you both talking about????
pawian   
23 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

Throughout the interwar period, Poland practiced a harsh policy of assimilation of its national minorities, particularly Belarusian and Ukrainians

Yes.

land was seized and redistributed to Polish military veterans, i

No. What seizure of land are you talking about? You mean Poles stole land from Ukrainians??? Better do some reading:

Polish settlement in the Borderlands

December 17, 1920 r. Polish Legislature unanimously adopted the Act on the acquisition of land for the Tsar's eastern borderlands and granting their merit in the fight against the Bolsheviks, Polish soldiers and war invalids.

kresy24.pl/23568/17-grudnia-1920
jpilsudski.org/artykuly-ii-rzeczpospolita-dwudziestolecie-miedzywojnie/spoleczenstwo/item/1718-polskie-osadnictwo-wojskowe

I've read that only 4% of the Osadniks actually lived on 'their' land.

You should do some reading, too.
pawian   
14 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

It's more the ones from the PRL era that were dedicated to victims of Fascism,

Impossible!! I cannot believe it.

It is true, but you must admit, all these monuments to Polish suffering also help to reinforce the general "Christ of Nations" complex that some people have.

Yes, it is true, but that is our tradition and you cannot help it. At least for a generation or two. Besides, why should Poles be worse than Jews in commemorating their victims???

Do you know if these monuments are dedicated to all victims in Wolyn, or just Polish ones?

Only Polish ones.

The process of reconciliation has started only recently: in June, Polish and Ukrainian bishops signed the declaration of mutual forgiveness: polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/875996,Deklaracja-biskupow-tylko-prawda-moze-nas-wyzwolic

Poland Warsaw Church

But inhabitants of Eastern lands and their ancestors refuse to reconcile: polskieradio.pl/5/3/Artykul/876302,Nie-mozna-pojednac-sie-z-mordercami
pawian   
13 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

The Communists were just as bad at putting monuments everywhere

Hmm...... Delph, you should also do some deeper research. :):):)

The abandoned (pulled down) monuments erected in communist times honoured such butchers as Feliks Dzierźyński or Vladimir Lenin. Yes, they were abandoned, as you say:

Lenin

Dzierżyński

Do you really think it is problem?

However, other monuments have been preserved.

must be a general Polish thing.

You seem not to read all posts here:
Again:

Hmm, because once Poles saw how Germans tried to eradicate the Polish culture by blowing up Polish monuments? The inscription on Krakow monument reads: Nations which lose memory die out.

pawian   
13 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

Well, that`s not all. There are old ones too:

Wrocław:
Huta Pieniacka:
Kraków
Gdańsk:

Gdańsk-

Street in Legnica

Street in Legnica-

Genocide in Volhynia - term number of shares of Ukrainian nationalists directed against the Polish and Czech population living in Volhynia. During stretching from 1942 to 1944 years of seizures, intensified in summer 1943 were murdered about 100,000 Poles and a few thousand Ukrainians. The action was initiated by the activists of the OUN-B (Bandera) and performed primarily by the formation of UPA aided by the peasants. A large role in instigating to the crime played a Greek Catholic clergy. Greek Catholic priests who refused to incitement to crime were also murdered. Greek Catholic Metropolitan Andrew Szeptycki admittedly issued November 21, 1942 pastoral letter Thou shalt not kill, but it caused almost no reaction from nationalists. Most murders, made in the summer of 1943 took place on Sundays. Ukrainians used the fact that the Polish people gathered at Mass in churches, so churches were often surrounded, and the faithful before his death were often tortured in a cruel way (eg. Cutting people in half with a saw for wood, gouging eyes out, burning alive). July 11, 1943 there was a coordinated attack on dozens of Polish towns, throughout July and at least 530 Polish villages and settlements. Under the slogan Death of Lach's were killed several thousand of Poles. It is very difficult today to determine the exact number of Poles murdered. This is often due to the fact that some of the village were razed and their inhabitants slaughtered to the last man. Careful estimates supported by evidence, in the form of the relationship of the survivors, allow you to specify the Polish loss in Volhynia for approx. 60 thousand of murdered.

Hmm, because once Poles saw how Germans tried to eradicate the Polish culture by blowing up Polish monuments? The inscription on Krakow monument reads: Nations which lose memory die out.
pawian   
13 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

However was there an element of revenge?

No. Remember, it took place in 1947. The eastern region of today`s Poland was liberated in 1944. Do you really think that it took 3 years to prepare the revenge?

No, I already mentioned it :

, it was necessary to cut off supplies to and eventually get rid of Ukrainian partisans (called bandits) who fought for creating independent Ukraine in the region.

The newest monuments to honour the victims

Warsaw

Polish monument

Polish monument

Gromnik
pawian   
13 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

What do you think was the motivation for Wolyn? Not just the ringleaders, but all those caught up.

Ukrainian butchers from UPA and OUN decided to clear the area of all Poles to make sure the territory was granted to Ukraine, which they hoped would be independent soon. Clearing was done by means of axes, pitched forks, knives, bayonettes, saws and other utensils of that kind. In result, thousands of Polish citizens were slaughtered in the most brutal way. Not killed, jon. SLAUGHTERED.

Simply speaking, it was ethnic cleansing of genocidal character.

Also. how was it different for Akja Wisla?

Resettling of Rus people to another area in Poland wasn`t genocide, jon.
pawian   
13 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

Both involved dreadful cruelty by both 'sides'

Well, you should read more to know that equaling both events in this way is a bit hmm..... unwise.

Besides, respect my decision to talk about the subject which is in the title of the thread.

If you want to talk about Action Wisła, start another thread or find an old one.

OK?

an unhealthy dose of nationalism all round.

Unfortunately.
pawian   
13 Jul 2013
History / 70th anniversary of 1943 Wołyń/Volhynia and Eastern Galicia Massacre - controvercies [454]

1947, no?

I suppose you refer to Akcja Wistula ?

Yes, that`s it.

First of all, it wasn`t ethnic cleansing in the style that Ukrainians had done before. It was just a transfer of Rus people into another part of Poland (Western lands, formerly controlled by Germany). They were just resettled and allowed to stay in Poland, not cleansed.

And yes, I think, although brutal and inhumane, it was necessary to cut supplies to and eventually get rid of Ukrainian partisans (called bandits) who fought for creating independent Ukraine in the region.

But let`s focus on the main topic - massacre of 100.000 Poles in Polish Eastern territories called Kresy by Ukrainian butchers from UPA in 1943-1947.