USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]

I got interested in my history more intensely in recent years. It started with seeing if the town had my grandmother's birth certificate. I was amazed they did. With all the changes in government and wars, they had it. So then I got hooked on genealogy.

My mother's immediate family all came to America. Even her great grandfather. He was a retired blacksmith. Lots of the children died during one of the sicknesses that struck. Out of 8 children, only two survived, my grandmother and her brother. He had only one child and his child died as a teen, so I only have my immediate family from my Polish grandmother that I am close with. I am not aware of any family in Poland on my Polish side, but I am working on it. I know they must be there. :-)

The name Bubacz is rather rare in Poland and they come mainly from Poznan, Pila, Gniezno. Now that I know the parish church where I got my great grandparent's marriage certificate, I will look to see who their brothers and sisters were and if my grandparents had any siblings that stayed in Poland.

I did find that I have some distant family still in Poland that were ethnic Germans. They stayed because they had married into Polish families. The man who now owns my grandmother's farm appears to be a 5th cousin. I had such a wonderful time this summer in Poland visiting all the places where family had once lived.

I have been to Poland now three times and love it. I have many friends there and I almost married a Polish man and moved to Poland. But that's another story....lol

USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]

My mother had Polish parents. She spoke Polish because she learned from her grandmother. Her brother and sisters did not learn. In later life, she spoke Polish with her mother when they wanted to speak privately.

My father had German parents and he knew Low German and High German. Obviously, my mother and father only spoke to each other in English. So, I only learned a little bit in each language.

All my grandparents (Polish and German) were born in Poland, either when it was non-existent during the partitions, the semi-independent Congress Poland or after WWI.

My ethnic Polish side of the family came from Gniezno, and my ethnic Germans from the Vistula area in Central Poland.

My German grandfather was a citizen of Poland till 1928. He became American at that point, but his sister remained Polish her whole life even though she lived in America.

USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]

Exactly, Bolle, you explained it perfectly! I think Delph gets two groups of people in America mixed up. Those recently from Poland who were born there (may or may not go back), and have more of a claim that they are Polish, as opposed to those of us who have Polish ancestry.

You are right, we are Americans first, but when asked or even if not asked, we may say that we are of Polish descent. The short way of saying this is I am Polish. And you are absolutely correct that it means of Polish descent. No need for labels of Plastic. None of us is hiding in America. We were born here as a rule and besides being American have a love for the country of our ancestry.

That is why a lot of people come here. To learn more about Poland because we know we are far from experts. We hope that Poles from Poland will help us to know the country better.

That is why I loved McCoy's posts among others, even those not Polish who live in Poland. They have posted pictures of interesting places, scenic beauty, popular music, etc.

I hope that eventually Delph can be less bitter about us in America. He may have met or read something ignorant by someone in America, but it is so unfair to judge us all adversely.

I think it is wonderful that he is in Poland and takes such a great interest in the country. Maybe he can be like one of those people living there that act as a mirror for us here in America and reflect what he wants us to know about Polska.

Genealogy / Polish DNA? Poles have the most genes in a group includes Balts, Macedonians and Greeks. [264]

Or new comers to the area....who liked it better home. Kind of like those annoying Yankees who move down South in the USA and make all the locals annoyed. (Me being one of those at one time who has learned to fit in.) :-)

Genealogy / Polish DNA? Poles have the most genes in a group includes Balts, Macedonians and Greeks. [264]

That was a very good hunch, Mr. Grunwald. I just happen to know about this because my ancestors were both ethnic Polish and ethnic Low Germans.

Genealogy / Polish DNA? Poles have the most genes in a group includes Balts, Macedonians and Greeks. [264]

Because at one time, they were invited to colonize the areas around the Vistula. They were living among Polish farmers and Low Germans who could drain the swamps and farm. They may have been great book keepers, but lacked the skills necessary to survive. They made fun of the local Germans and Poles. They looked down on them as though those Germans from north Germany were unsophisticated and they were more like true Germans from the south of Germany.

See Swabian settlement areas pre WWII:

upstreamvistula.org/History/Breyer_Map.htm

Genealogy / Polish DNA? Poles have the most genes in a group includes Balts, Macedonians and Greeks. [264]

Yes, I heard the same thing. That Swabians gave all Germans a bad reputation in Poland. It is commonly said that they were rude to the Germanic "natives" when they moved into the area. They felt they were better, smarter than the Poles and the German/Dutch who had lived there for hundreds of years. In the end, as colonists, they had to be helped to survive by both the Poles and the German-Poles as they themselves had few practical skills. Of course that is a generalization and probably not true for all. But enough of them were like this that the word remains today in Poland as a derogatory name for Germans.

Genealogy / Americans of Polish descent. How many of us are on Polish forums? [216]

I understand that Native Americans can get help with college. Not sure if it is free, or just some kind of break. I am pretty certain one can even get help if you are a certain percentage of Native American. Considering what they went through when Europeans came here, it is probably one of the least things we can do.

During the great immigration period of the late 1800's and early 1900's, the census went into more detail about ethnicity of white people. It asked if you were German, Polish, etc, etc. What language you spoke at home and country of origin.

I imagine that because the main immigrants are now Hispanic, Orientals, and others that the focus is on them. I wish there were more details to the census. As someone who enjoys genealogy, they can be a treasure trove later on if there is more information on them.

Genealogy / Americans of Polish descent. How many of us are on Polish forums? [216]

I am not part of Polonia, but I have Polish ancestry and have been to Poland for three visits.

I stayed for three weeks in 2000, for one week in 2008, and for three weeks this past summer. I have good friends there from the first visit and made lots of new ones.

My relatives all came from Poland, some as ethnic Poles that were German citizens of Prussia and others as Russians that were ethnically German and others that came after Poland became a nation again, and had Polish citizenship. So it gets very complicated to answer the usual question asked in America, "where did your family come from?" lol

I found the farm where my grandmother lived and had coffee with the current owner. We could not communicate in detail as he knew no English and I was left with what I learned as a baby. However, we managed. I went to all the villages that my family ever lived in and wow what a wonderful trip. I even fell in love with a lot near where my grandmother came from so I could retire to Poland. But, I am not sure if I can purchase land. Or if I'd want to go and leave my grandkids.

moje-miejsce.net.pl/en/41/offer/ostrowite.html

P.S. This is the church where my Polish great grandparents were married in Gniezno, Poland.
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gniezno.19th_September_2007._Franciscan_church.JPG

USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]

I personally would never want to vote in any Polish elections unless I had Polish citizenship.

I would never call myself Polish-American or consider myself part of Polonia because I do not live near any Polish centers anymore. I am American. Some people do the hyphenated name thing. I personally prefer to just be American. However, what Plastic Pole says is true. People here with last names of a particular ethnicity are often asked what country were your ancestors from, or simply....what are you?

When asked, I say that I am of Polish descent and German descent. Ethnically, I am about 50% Slavic (Polish/Kashub combination), and 50% (Dutch/Frisian/North German) Germanic. My Dutch/Germans lived in Poland for 250 years before emigrating to America. They were invited to Poland by the Nobles to help drain the swamps and make productive farm land.

So, ethnically, I am about half Slavic and the other half of my background were Polish by nationality. I am American, but we all love to talk about what constitutes our background. I find it very surprising how vehemently upset OP is about this issue.

I do know the dates of all my families' emigration to America. My mother a first generation American, spoke Polish, I know a little bit. My Dad, a first generation American, spoke Low German from the Vistula Delta. (Niederung Platt). Very heavily influence by Dutch and Polish.

I have been to Poland three times, and love it there. I feel a connection to the land and the people, but I am American. Everyone knows I am into genealogy and all I come in contact with have been educated by me about Poland, the Partitions, how the country bravely fought for freedom all over the world, what a great ally Poland has always been, and how it has risen like the phoenix from the ashes. I've told them all about how Poland is an ancient kingdom with a long history and love of freedom and democracy. I truly believe I have been an ambassador of Poland and raised the respect that people here have for the country. And it makes me feel sad when some are so angry that we have a sense of connection.

USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]

delphiandomine. It is good to see that you basically like the people in Poland and even the Polonia in other places. However, I have a hard time understanding why you would get so riled up about the Polonia in America. Maybe you have encountered a few jerks on this board or elsewhere. Is it really possible that all the people of Polish descent in America are so terrible that you angrily ask why anybody would put up with them?

I am no expert, but know that many immigrants that came to the USA around the turn of the century had their names mis-spelled and mis-pronounced. They may have shrugged their shoulders and accepted it or might not have been able to read. Their children wanting to be Americans would accept the americanized version of the name.

If you have ever done any genealogy, you may already know that surnames are of relatively recent vintage. When you look at the available records, the names are usually spelled and sometimes pronoucned in a variety of ways. Especially if there were occupying nations. So, if someone pronounces a Polish name the way an American would say it, that is the progression of languages and names. Language is a living thing.

Same thing with "false friends". A recent discussion on here shows that Russian and Polish as well as some Swedish and German words have some common origins. They may be pronounced the same, and spelled the same, but have slightly different meanings. Or they may be spelled a bit different or pronounced differently, but have basically the same or related meaning. That is just what happens when people leave one area and then develop new ways of using words. I find it interesting, not something to be angry about.

Even in England, with the invasions of the Angles, Saxons, Normans and other tribes, many names changed, words developed new meanings and new ways of saying the words. English, and most of the Germanic languages have their common origins. With migration, the language changed, and developed into new languages.

So, why expect that people of Polish descent will be able to preserve exactly Polish as it is spoken in Poland? Maybe they will keep some words frozen in time from when their ancestors came to this country. Maybe they will apply English rules to Polish words and make a nightmare out of it. No one does these things out of spite or malice. I am sure if you came to America and met some of Polish descent, you would also find many people you would like despite their imperfect knowledge.

PS. I never used Busha....I used Babćia. However, to make it sound more loving and sweet, I used an English ending. Had no idea I was doing it, but many in America say it like Bob-chee. Think of dog vs. doggy. Jim vs. Jimmy. We most likely took the right word and changed the ending more like it would be in English.

USA, Canada / Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture" [568]

delphiandomine has managed to make us fight about who did more to free Poland. He may not be a troll, but his thread has had the result of a troll. Division. I feel sorry that he is so upset about those in Polonia.

People in America who have descended from those of Polish ethnicity (which takes into account Poland during the partitions, and Poland as a country) may make mistakes and not know everything about Poland, but if their heart is with Poland, what difference does it make. They mean no harm. They have no desire to upset delphiandomine.

They are here to learn and so maybe the Poles on here can help them to understand what Poland is like now, not when their great-grandparents came to the USA. They may say Busha, and when a Pole tells them the correct word in usage now, they may learn. Maybe it needs to be repeated. But, it should be flattering that the "plastic pole" cares. It has been generations removed since his ancestors arrived, but he still cares. Most people removed a few generations no longer can speak in the ethnic tongue. Will they learn to speak Polish? Probably not. But they may learn a lot about their heritage. How would they do this if the mother country hates them.

My Polish ancestors came to America during the partitions and were listed as Germans. So, no I could never be considered Polish or claim citizenship through them. Oddly enough, my ethnic German grandfather was a Polish citizen in 1928, and although my mother was born in the USA in 1921, I might actually have some basis to claim Polish citizenship but through my German lineage! If I got citizenship, I could move to Poland. I've thought about it. I've been to Poland three times, and love the country. I love the people. So, my message to delphiandomine is to be more accepting. One never knows who could really be Polish and who is not. And why should it matter. It's where the heart is.

History / Vilamovian language - now that's something interesting [24]

Really? Had not seen those threads, but did notice this one.

So, I am happy McCoy posted. Maybe they will merge them someday. :-)

Yes, I was surprised to also learn that that Scot dialect is also I believe a low German derivative. There was so much trade going on between all these areas and the low German language of the Hanseatic Trade League was used a lot like English is today.

History / Vilamovian language - now that's something interesting [24]

Turns out my "so-called" Germans are also mainly Frisian, Dutch and Flemish. They were from the Russian partition, but had been in the Gdańsk area and moved down the Vistula. They were invited to Poland by the nobles to help reclaim swampy land. They were first subjects of Prussia, then Poland and then Russia.

Their language was similar to this one. Like Vilamovian, it is also almost a dead language. It was called Niederung Platt and it turns out that when they were expelled to Germany, they could understand the Flemish housekeeper perfectly. They no longer had their records from 300 years back, but the oral history said they were of Dutch origins. I really enjoy learning about languages and how they developed. Thanks for posting.

Genealogy / Manko, Federowicz, Baszczek, Zatwarnicka. Family history mystery. [36]

The quote refers to Skalat, as being part of Ukraine, but mentions your village in passing. It may or may not be in the Ukraine. It is apparently nearby though. If you google the name of the village you can find the entire article and read it and get a better idea. I did not have the time, but was pleased to see that there were references to your village online.

I am sure you will find more. Google is your friend. :-)

Genealogy / Manko, Federowicz, Baszczek, Zatwarnicka. Family history mystery. [36]

Have you googled the name Podwolczyska? I found a few things one of which:

Skalat, Ukraine (Pages 1-9)
It passes through Podwolczyska, Tarnorude and many other villages. The town Skalat, in the Tarnopol district of Galicia, formerly part of Poland, ...
jewishgen.org/yizkor/skalat1/ska001.html - Cached

History / Poland - problem for Germany? (historically continual hostility of German state on Poland) [154]

Thanks Ironside and Bratwurst Boy! :-)

Oh, and here is the cool thing that Poland is doing! It is happening all over Poland.
When I went there this summer, I was so touched!

History / Poland - problem for Germany? (historically continual hostility of German state on Poland) [154]

People can also partly agree with Steinbach. I am Polish on my mother's side and expellee German on my father's side. So, obviously I have no beef with either the Poles or the Germans. In fact, I feel happiest when I see the past put where it belongs, and the two countries getting along well.

It makes me feel terrible to see either of the two groups of people picking on each other. My heart bleeds for the suffering that Poles experienced in WWII, and for all the partitions that wiped Poland off the map. Yet, I can also sympathize with people who had to leave their homeland. I do know that it was not the fault of Poland, the big powers made the decision.

Sadly, many of the expellees were not those who were sent into Poland during the occupation of WWII, but simple farmers who had lived in Poland for hundreds of years. They had nothing in common with Germany, other than German ancestry from 250 years earlier. When they got to Germany, it was a foreign land where they were often called Pollacks. Yet because of the war, in Poland they were considered Krauts.

My father's cousin is 90 years old now and lives in Germany. For most of her life, she missed home. Home for her was Poland. It has only been recently that she stopped missing the house she was born in. I did not know her growing up, the family was very split up after the war. Through my interest in genealogy I was able to find living family in both Poland and Germany and have been able to get an update on what happened to my father's family that were expelled.

(My grandmother came to the USA before the first world war, so it did not effect my father, his mother or me.) But my grandmother's siblings went through hell that they did not bring on themselves. They were the victims of the war just as much as Polish victims of war. Nevertheless, I am not excusing Hitler in anyway. The volume of suffering he brought is unmatched. Besides Polish and Jewish suffering, he also brought suffering to 12 million ethnic Germans in Russia, Poland, Czech lands and other places east of Germany. In my mind there is nothing wrong with acknowledging the suffering of all the people during those awful times.

One of my grandmother's sisters refused to flee in 1945 and her family attempted to stay as Polish citizens. Out of a family of seven, only two remained alive. My father's living 90 year old cousin says that the horrors of WWII for both Poles and ethnic Germans were unspeakable. She cannot tell me of it other than that. And when I had a Polish boyfriend, his family had also horrible stories of what happened to their grandparents, uncles and other family. Maybe all of us should feel sympathy for what happened to all of the people back then. BUT.....

as has been said on other threads, most people alive now had little to do with what happened then. Acknowledge that people suffered, but train yourself to avoid bringing the past suffering into present day relations. To do that only encourages problems in the future and the possibility of more suffering.

Food / What's your favorite Polish coffee? [73]

I just got back from Poland a few weeks ago and many people were kind and invited me in for coffee. For the most part, it was ground in the cup with boiling water on it....or so it seemed. It was strong and kind of gritty.

At the breakfast there was a choice I believe between Gold Blend and Nescafe.

I thought the long coffee packets available in stores containing plain instant coffee, (real skinny packet), coffee with creamer, and coffee with sugar and creamer were cute.

In America, our packages tend to be boxier and I notice the coffee packets long and skinny and all the water and juice bottles were narrow and taller, too.

Food / Your all time favourite Polish Dishes! [108]

You'd have to call it ravioli then! LOL

Genealogy / Neugebauer surname in Poland / Nestor, Zurawel, Worobec, Atamanczuk in Galicia Poland [27]

There was someone in the interwar government of Poland by that last name:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieczyslaw_Norwid-Neugebauer

Travel / Why do you visit Poland? [223]

I have a hard time explaining it too, but feel good that another person has had such a similar experience! I remember thinking about the land, too as I flew over Poland. Like you, I felt strangely at home and connected to my roots.

Genealogy / Polish Gypsy Roots & Roma ancestors in their families [205]

RAKKY

Good post. Genetics show that there is so little differenes between people of all the "races" that it almost makes the term race obsolete. What looks like differences on the surface, skin color, curly or straight hair, are miniscule. We share most of our DNA and are one family.

Travel / Why do you visit Poland? [223]

I went in 2000 and in fall 2008! My grandparents were born in Poland. My Mom's side are mostly Polish from the Poznan area, and my Dad's side are mostly ethnic Germans from near Rypin and Lipno near Torun.

It was such a feeling flying over Poland for the first time! I was so excited! And it was cool to see things that so many take for granted when their families live in one place for many generations.

I got to see the churches where my grandparents attended, town and villages. It was extra sweet because when I began my genealogy research, I barely knew anything about Poland or where they all came from! Having gone through all the work, it was even more exciting to actually be there!

History / What Was Happening in Poland around 1905? [73]

During the times of peak immigration, the older census forms asked what nationality and what language was spoken at home. Two of my grandparents were listed as Russians and two great grandparents were listed as Germans because they came over during the partitions. Of the ones listed as from Russia, (ethnic Germans) one declared German to be the spoken language at home, and the other declared Polish on one census and German on another census. The ones that were listed as German, (Poles), declared themselves to be Polish speakers at home.

I think that gives a pretty good idea of ethnicity in most cases, even though Poland was not a country at the time. One of my ancestors evidently had an identity crisis! LOL

I think that as far as Polish immigration to the states went, that time period late 1800's and early 1900's were considered to be "bread" emmigration from the partitioned areas of Poland. People were poor and looking for opportunity.

Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4500]

That is interesting Polonius3. And makes sense. I believe that the Witzke family were from Pomerania before moving into Central Poland. They spoke Polish and Low German.

Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4500]

Thanks Polonius3.

I appreciate the input. Well, maybe the Witzke/Laskowska comination was one of the mixed marriages that did happen from time-to-time in Central Poland.

Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4500]

My great-grandmother was also a Laskowska, but she lived in a hollander village among ethnic Germans. So, I've often wondered if she was Polish, or perhaps a Kashub. Do you know anything of the usual ethnic background of people with the name Laskowski?

Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4500]

Kamy girl...Polonius3 often translates what the village name would mean if it were rendered in English. Pebbleton (pebble town), is the closest English meaning for the name Kamyk.

Genealogy / THE MEANING AND RESEARCH OF MY POLISH LAST NAME, SURNAME? [4500]

There are many German names in Poland. Most ethnic Germans were expelled, but some descendents of ethnic Germans who do genealogy have found they still have cousins in Poland carrying the ethnic German name. They have been some of the few who swore loyalty to Poland after WWII and were permitted to stay. They married Poles and the ethnic surname survived. Some have made it more Polish like Schultz being Szulc. Or Witzke being Wycke. However, BB....I believe the name Berlin is actually a Slavic name in origin. *ducks*