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What do Poles owe to Jews?


Ironside 49 | 10,298
4 Jul 2012 #91
Exactly, that is how I portray some Poles: because that is how some Poles were

Only that you write about Poles and only pressed you add -some!
Harry
4 Jul 2012 #92
I would like to look forward to you quoting from posts in which I do that. But as we both know how truthful you are being with that statement (i.e. not at all truthful), you will never quote from such posts.
Ironside 49 | 10,298
4 Jul 2012 #93
Only a complete moron would fail to agree that Poland as a nation did fail its Jewish citizens between 1945 and 1989

I would like to look forward to you quoting from posts in which I do that.

Look there is one!
genecps 7 | 131
4 Jul 2012 #94
Hey guys, I would honestly say that there are good and bad people among both Poles and Jews. they tend to be a minority, but because their names ring loudest in history it makes it sound like they represent the rest.
Hipis - | 227
4 Jul 2012 #95
I totally agree, the same in all societies, except whilst some of us can acknowledge this, there are some who refuse too see it because that goes against their blinkered agenda.
Harry
4 Jul 2012 #96
Look there is one!

Quite right, there is another one of your lies. I asked you to quote from a post in which I talked about all Poles (and for some strange reason you fail to quote that) but instead you quote from a post in which I talk about the nation of Poland. Sad, even for you.

Hey guys, I would honestly say that there are good and bad people among both Poles and Jews. they tend to be a minority,

As I have said repeated, some gentile Poles were good, some were evil, some Jews were good and some were evil. What Poles owe Jews (and what Jews owe Poles) is to tell the truth about that simple fact and to neither try to white-wash the parts of history which are inconvenient for them or to overstate the negative acts by what they see as the 'other side'.
genecps 7 | 131
4 Jul 2012 #97
As I have said repeated, some gentile Poles were good, some were evil, some Jews were good and some were evil. What Poles owe Jews (and what Jews owe Poles) is to tell the truth about that simple fact and to neither try to white-wash the parts of history which are inconvenient for them or to overstate the negative acts by what they see as the 'other side'.

I expect that from any decent person no matter what his ethnic background is.
Hipis - | 227
4 Jul 2012 #98
As I have said repeated, some gentile Poles were good, some were evil, some Jews were good and some were evil. What Poles owe Jews (and what Jews owe Poles) is to tell the truth about that simple fact and to neither try to white-wash the parts of history which are inconvenient for them or to overstate the negative acts by what they see as the 'other side'.

At last we're beginning to agree on something.
Harry
4 Jul 2012 #99
Not really: I have always said that; you, on the other hand, recommend texts which contain utter bollocks such as "the Jews were like hungry dogs in front of a butcher shop" and "The Jews then played the role of a "fifth column." "
Ironside 49 | 10,298
4 Jul 2012 #100
I asked you to quote from a post in which I talked about all Poles (and for some strange reason you fail to quote that) but instead you quote from a post in which I talk about the nation of Poland.

If you are talking about the nation of Poland you are talking about all Poles.
Harry
4 Jul 2012 #101
Really? So in your mind the actions of the nation of Poland between 1945 and 1989 were supported by all Poles and thus all Poles are to blame for said actions. Sorry but even you must be able to see the stupidity of that particular position.
Bieganski 17 | 901
4 Jul 2012 #102
One ethno-religious chauvinist claimed early on in this thread without any supporting evidence:

What the Poles took from us, us being "The Jews", they could never repay.

But it didn't take long for this rather neurotic position to be undermined by one of his fellow ethno-religious chauvinists in a subsequent post when replying to someone else:

Really? So in your mind the actions of the nation of Poland between 1945 and 1989 were supported by all Poles and thus all Poles are to blame for said actions. Sorry but even you must be able to see the stupidity of that particular position.

Hipis - | 227
5 Jul 2012 #103
Not really: I have always said that; you, on the other hand, recommend texts which contain utter bollocks such as "the Jews were like hungry dogs in front of a butcher shop" and "The Jews then played the role of a "fifth column." "

To be honest harry, you haven't always said that or we wouldn't be where we are now. I also recommend this article in Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skidal_uprising

Is that utter bollocks too?
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #104
Wow, a wikipedia article! Those are always completely reliable, aren't they? Why don't we have a look at the single source which that article is based on? It has a summary which reads:

" On 17 September 1939, immediately after the Soviet troops crossed the Polish border, Polish troops in many localities were attacked by Belarusian communist insurgents. Particularly many incidents were recorded in the Grodno region. On 18 September, guerrillas captured the town of Skidel. The town was recaptured by a Polish punitive expedition that was sent from Grodno a day later. Many adherents of the Soviet system were shot."

Not a word about Jews but to you this event says something about Polish-Jewish relations. Such a pity that your hated of Jews blinds you so. But fortunately here in Poland people have got over the bigotry you display.
Hipis - | 227
5 Jul 2012 #105
There you go again Harry, the only defence you have when you get shown up to be wrong is to make unfounded accusations and hurl insults. Just goes to show how weak your arguments are if that is what you have to resort to.

The source as linked in the Wikipedia article is here

On this day the people of the town heard the radio information on the Red Army entered Polish territory. At the news of the local population created a lot of tension. The market has gathered a large crowd, which is like waiting for a signal to act. Suddenly fell cry: "Disarm the police!" In a short time a group of rebels led by the Communists - former members of a district organization of the Communist Party of Western Belarus - seized the police station, post office, power and disarmed and arrested in the current police officers and officers of the Polish Army. In total arrested approx. 15 officers led by Colonel. Zygmunt Szafranowskim, head of the District Headquarters Replenishment in Bialystok, who passed through Skidel carrying cash Grouping "Vaŭkavysk" gene. Przeździecki Waclaw, containing approx. 1.5 million. zł. On the same day the rebels tried to stop the car gene. Joseph Olszyny-Wilczynski, commander of III DOC Grodno, who was coming from Pinsk to Grodno. Here, however, were less fortunate. Gen. Olszyna-Wilczynski, having fresh in his minds off from saboteurs in the district of Slonim (September 17, 1939.), Accurately read the intentions of the rebels, and was not to be surprised. Seeing armed men on the streets Skidla ordered the chauffeur to this, regardless of the consequences, do not stop the car. So when the "insurgents" began to give signs to stop the vehicle, the driver increased the speed of "piercing the" through their cordon. Meanwhile, in a small town spread revolt. With the coming of volunteers formed a branch of counting - according to Soviet sources - approx. 200 guerrillas, which consisted of representatives of the Jewish proletariat, political prisoners released from prison in Hrodna and Belarusian peasants coming from the surrounding villages. Among others, master in action magistrate had to attend a twenty branch of Belarusian peasants, under dowództem former member CPWB Mikhail Pika, who came from the village of bullhead. Armed groups have been sent to the railway station, which is mastered. After the occupation of the station "insurgents" were able to stop and disarm the train filled with Polish soldiers. With this success, the rebels captured a substantial amount of weapons and train soldiers rozbrojonymi passed in the direction of Grodno. Another group under the leadership of Ilya Little Mouse - a peasant from the village Piesczanka, embarked on a truck in the direction of Lida, where marching unspecified unit of the Polish Army. Partisans possessed only ordinary rifles and a heavy machine gun. The meeting took place near the village of Sikorzyce, Lower Silesian Voivodeship. For the upcoming HR department had to speak Ilya Little Mouse dragging the soldiers to his side, while the officers and policemen were disarmed. During the described action shooting occurred several officers who resisted rebels.

kamunikat.fontel.net/www/czasopisy/bzh/07/07art_wierzbicki.htm

There is more than one reference to "Jewish proliteriat" as being actively involved in the insurrection against Polish forces. Try reading the entire article and not just the bit that suits your argument.
Gruffi_Gummi - | 106
5 Jul 2012 #106
Such a pity that your hated of Jews blinds you so.

Instead of playing the anti-Semitism card, you could simply type "Skidel uprising" or "Skidel revolt" in Google to corroborate. Reference to the revolt and to the participation of Jews in it can be found in: Shared History—Divided Memory: Jews and Others in Soviet-Occupied Poland, 1939–1941, Elazar Barkan, Elizabeth A. Cole, and Kai Struve. Also, you may find sources describing the town of Skidel as a shtetl. Your response, Harry, indicate that you are not interested in facts, just in peddling your anti-Polish bigotry and hatred.
jasondmzk
5 Jul 2012 #107
It seems like instead of answering a straight-forward, if somewhat uncomfortable question about Polish/Jewish relationships, you've turned this into an impromptu attack on straw dogs, instead. Namely, Harry. You could have ignored the thread altogether, but instead you seem determined to get your licks in, vis-a-vis Polish dissatisfaction with Jewry, and have chosen the thread's most outspoken interlocutor Harry as your whipping boy. Personally, I find the subsequent piling on Master Harry and the undeserved abuse both disingenuous and distasteful. For those wishing to maintain a modicum of honesty and honor in their PF tete-a-tete's, I'd suggest reviewing your debating methodology.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #108
Sorry, but Harry deserves what he gets. He dishes out half truths an lies to stir trouble while being economical with the truth about his own political agenda. This has gone on for years, he never wastes the opportunity to start an argument about the sins of the past.

Straw man? "outspoken interlocutor ". He calls anyone who contradicts his one sided comments a Liar, liar,liar, Nazi. liar, Jew Hating liar. He uses Ad-hominem attacks all the time.

Do you really think what Harry is doing is good for Polish-Jewish relationships? Peddling half the story about what Poles did to Jews while ignoring the motivation and actions from both(all) sides.

The fact is, what happened was not black and white and endless mulling over and arguing about it will not undo it. The holocaust happened, the communist invaded, a lot of killing went on. Whose fault was it? Hitler and Stalin's. Was it the responsibility of anybody who is alive today? No.

What he is doing, stirring ****, is doing exactly the opposite of what he thinks he going to achieve. Its racist incitement, raking over the past for instances of injustice which cannot be proven, either way. All its going to do is increase hate, not understanding.

I want this sort of thread banned, life goes forwards not backwards.
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #109
Just goes to show how weak your arguments are if that is what you have to resort to.

Remind me which of us is saying that some gentile Poles were good, some were evil, some Jews were good and some were evil and which of us is claiming that all Jews were a fifth column and all Jews were like hungry dogs, then we'll talk about who has a weak argument.

There is more than one reference to "Jewish proliteriat" as being actively involved in the insurrection against Polish forces.

And? So what? I have repeatedly said that some Jews were good and some were evil (although frankly the Jews involved in things like the Gang of 13 were far far far more evil). You are the one who wishes to take the events in small town and use that to support the lie that all Jews were a fifth column in Poland.

Instead of playing the anti-Semitism card

Card? The anti-semitism of Hipis' posts is clear for all to see (as it is with many of your posts).

your anti-Polish bigotry and hatred.

Yawn. Better luck next time with that tired old lie.

He calls anyone who contradicts his one sided comments a Liar

No, I point out your lies when you tell them, just as I will do with everybody who posts lies here. It's a shame that you can't simply learn not to post lies but instead you just whine and whine and whine about me.

Peddling half the story about what Poles did to Jews while ignoring the motivation and actions from both(all) sides

My posts above show how truthful that statement of yours is. But then what can we expect from a man who claims that the communists (read: 'Jews') carried out the holocaust against Poles?
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #110
But then what can we expect from a man who claims that the communists (read: 'Jews') carried out the holocaust against Poles?

I await your rebuttal that the Soviets committed genocide against the Poles.
Hipis - | 227
5 Jul 2012 #111
Remind me which of us is saying that some gentile Poles were good, some were evil, some Jews were good and some were evil

That would be me and subsequently you decided to copy me when your lies and half truths are then challenged and backed up with evidence.

which of us is claiming that all Jews were a fifth column and all Jews were like hungry dogs,

Neither of us. Those terms were used by people writing their memoirs of their lives in Eastern Poland after the Red Army invaded on September 17th 1939.

You are the one who wishes to take the events in small town and use that to support the lie that all Jews were a fifth column in Poland.

Again, something I haven't said. I do believe it was you who actually "cherry picked" that line, firstly accusing the compiler of statements an anti Semite and subsequently me.

The anti-semitism of Hipis' posts is clear for all to see

Really? My Jewish friends don't have any problems with anything I post on here. The only person who sees anti Semitism and bigotry in anything I post is you.

Yawn. Better luck next time with that tired old lie.

I'm afraid you don't help yourself Harry. You have posted many things in an attempt to discredit Poland yet will only back peddle when challenged and you have been proved to be wrong or you have found to be economical with the truth. I posted a small sample of quotes from the archives, there are many, many more I could have used but you carry on Harry, at least I can back my posts up with evidence, links, peer reviewed studies etc etc I eagerly await the next round of discourse.

PS I forgot to post this classic backtrack from Harry. First he claims no mention of Jews but in his very next post when it is pointed out to him that there are several references to Jewish proliteriat in the body of the referenced work his classic response is
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #112
I await your rebuttal that the Soviets committed genocide against the Poles.

Here have a read here about the 1.7million deported in 1939-1941

derekcrowe.com/post.aspx?id=31

The truth is, the odyssey of the Polish people after the Soviet occupation was not forgotten. It was hushed up by the West.

As the Soviets rounded up the officers of the Polish military to be later executed in the Katyn Forest Massacre, 1.7 million Polish citizens including the families of the officers, shopkeepers, and even entire villages that resisted Soviet authority were herded onto cattle trains and sent to Siberia, Kazakhstan, and remote regions of Russia.

Of the 1.7 million Poles sent to the work camps in the Soviet Union, only about 500,000 are known to have survived. Many of the survivors tried to forget these horrible years and later in life refused to talk about the experience at all. In all, over 6 million Poles died during World War II at the hands of the Germans or the Soviets.

stephendanko.com/blog/313
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
5 Jul 2012 #113
Historia magazine for June, page 74, some article about Jews raiding Polish villages and taking things at will. (This is the issue with Hitler in a communist uniform on the cover.)

What is the article about and why do Historia publish it? Fact or propaganda?
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #114
Neither of us. Those terms were used by people writing their memoirs of their lives in Eastern Poland after the Red Army invaded on September 17th 1939.

Nice to see you back on form. Those quotes were actually by John Morrison. He is not from Eastern Poland and did not live there when the Red Army invaded in September 1939. But do feel free to claim that they were from other people, I'll be happy to point out the truth of the matter. Although, is there really any point in attempting to discuss anything with you, given your approach to truthful posting?

First he claims no mention of Jews but in his very next post when it is pointed out to him that there are several references to Jewish proliteriat in the body of the referenced work

Could you perhaps post where I claim that the referenced work makes no mention of Jews? Oh, no, you can't. because yet again you are being hugely economical with the truth. Even better, you selectively quote from my post, deliberately leaving out my statement as to where in the work there is no mention of Jews. Why would you do that? Other, of course, than to hide a lie.

Here have a read here about the 1.7million deported in 1939-1941

Still waiting for you to support your claim that the holocaust was committed by communists (read: 'Jews') against Poles.
Hipis - | 227
5 Jul 2012 #115
Those quotes were actually by John Morrison. He is not from Eastern Poland and did not live there when the Red Army invaded in September 1939.

Those quotes are not from John Morrison, like I have said time and time again, he compiled a dossier of work from several sources and posted them on that Facebook page. He may not have been from Eastern Poland but his grandfather was.

Could you perhaps post where I claim that the referenced work makes no mention of Jews?

1) I didn't leave out the statement, it was and still is there for all to see, apart form you of course. Selective vision?
2) Considering the length of some of your posts I don't think it is necessary to quote a whole post when it is very easy for people to scroll back and see your entire post from which I am quoting.

I have no need to misrepresent you Harry, you do a good job of doing that on your own
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #116
Those quotes are not from John Morrison, like I have said time and time again, he compiled a dossier of work from several sources and posted them on that Facebook page.

And that is why he does not use quote marks for them. Sorry but you have been rumbled, as usual.

There you are, the whole post with relevant words in bold.

You seem to have missed some rather relevant words: "It has a summary which reads". The summary has not a word about Jews. I wonder why you missed the bit where I said what I was talking about and tried to claim that other words were relevant. Could it be that the reality does not suit your requirements and so you choose to try and change it?

1) I didn't leave out the statement, it was and still is there for all to see, apart form you of course.

Yes you did. Your post here misses out the first part of my sentence which you quote from, the part where I say " It has a summary which reads:" So not only do you edit my posts in order to make them seem to say what they do not say, but you also lie about it when your editing is exposed!
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #117
Still waiting for you to support your claim that the holocaust was committed by communists (read: 'Jews') against Poles.

You don't think a million dead Poles is worthy of the word holocaust? A Jewish friend of mine describe it as such.

Now try give an answer instead of a insult, Communist.
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #118
You don't think a million dead Poles is worthy of the word holocaust?

I think that Poles owe it to Jews not to lie about the Holocaust. I know that using the word 'Pole' to describe you is a bit of a stretch, but I'm not using it to describe you: I'm simply addressing the topic of this thread.

Although, if a million dead Poles is worthy of the word holocaust, that would mean that the death toll resulting from the expulsion of Germans from what is now Poland would also be worthy of the word 'holocaust', which would mean that Poles committed a holocaust against Germans (and continue to benefit from it). Sure even you can see the utter stupidity of making a statement such as that one.

give an answer instead of a insult, Communist.

Got to love that, calling for answers instead of insults and then throwing in an insult. Hypocritical much?
MoOli 9 | 484
5 Jul 2012 #119
Now try give an answer instead of a insult, Communist.

I knew it he couldnt:)
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #120
I think

Here you go again.

Do you agree that the Communist committed genocide against the Poles in 1939-1941?


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