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What do Poles owe to Jews?


genecps 7 | 131
3 Jul 2012 #31
Oi Vei!!!

I know this thread was going to go to s#!t.

What do Poles owe to the Jews you ask, Nothing!

I have never in my life thought of: Hey dudes... Poles owe us something...

To the OP of this topic, I know you had good intention in mind, and I appreciate it!

I hope you continue seeking to keep a good memory of those Jews who positively contributed to the Polsih culture.

But WWII wasn't the fault of the Poles.

Poles didn't build the concentration camps, they didn't mastermind them either, and I highly doubt that it would have ever crossed their minds to do those things.

If it wasn't for the German "penis envy", non of this would happen.

If Poles owe anything, it's to blame the Germans for all this crap that went down (and the Royal Romanov douchebags)!

And now I wish for that the moderator would delete this threat as it will bring nothing but a negative response from someone who would see this for the first time.
Harry
3 Jul 2012 #32
stop lying !

I am not lying, as is shown by the sentences of the WWII Polish underground courts handed down to the most notorious Jew murderers, i.e. death.

Maybe if he had written Communists of Jewish ethnicity who were enemies of Poland his comment would have had some validity

First denial and then excuses. Perhaps you would like to explain to us the way in which Leon Feldhendler was an enemy of Poland? To almost all people who know his name he is a Polish hero who led the revolt at the Sobibor death camp. But to you he is nothing but a communist and an enemy of Poland. Or perhaps you can tell us how prof. Yaffa Eliach's baby brother was a communist and an enemy of Poland? Or was he murdered by NSZ for some other reason? Such a pity that your hatred of Jews is so strong that it blinds you to the truth about what some Poles did.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
3 Jul 2012 #33
Such a pity that your hatred of Jews is so strong that it blinds you to the truth about what some Poles did.

Can you provide proof of that slanderous statement?

Leon Feldhendler was an enemy of Poland


Who killed him is disputed. Was he a communist? if so his murder is entirely justified.
Harry
3 Jul 2012 #34
Can you provide proof of that slanderous statement?

He seems to think that a Polish hero was a Communist of Jewish ethnicity who was an enemy of Poland. He seems to think that a baby in its mothers arms was a Communist of Jewish ethnicity who was an enemy of Poland. Why would he make excuses for those who murder babies if he didn't hate the group the babies were from?

You should be careful of what appears to be becoming an instinctive reaction for you (i.e. side against me always and every time because in the past you have lost so many discussions to me): it is beginning to see you attempting to defend those to defend the indefensible. But let me make it crystal clear for you: murdering babies is wrong; claiming that those who murder babies are actually just killing Communists of Jewish ethnicity who were enemies of Poland; defending such persons is wrong; you are wrong.

Was he a communist? if so his murder is entirely justified.

You are the one who seems to wish to justify his murder, it will be for you to establish whether he was a communist.

And once you have done that, you can explain why your Nazi views (in this case that it is entirely acceptable to murder a Jew due to their supposed political beliefs) make you in any way suitable for acceptance into society and why you should not be put in a place where your odious views will harm nobody.

Of course, you'll never actually establish the first, so you'll never need to explain the second. Still, certainly is interesting to see your thoughts about when it's acceptable to murder Jews.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,262
3 Jul 2012 #35
Was he a communist? if so his murder is entirely justified.

Killing someone for their political beliefs is exactly what led to much of the trouble in Europe during the 20th century.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
3 Jul 2012 #36
You are the one who seems to wish to justify his murder, it will be for you to establish whether he was a communist.

I said IF he was a Communist, killing was justified. You have to prove who murdered him and why, he was shot through a door... proving it was murder would be difficult. You have to justify your slander by proving his was killed, by the NSZ and that he ws killed for being Jewish, not for being a Communist. good luck with that, and it won't stand up in a liable court anyway.

Killing communists is NOT Nazi. Communist committed Holocaust in Poland, they committed genocide against the Polish and other people. Nazi's and Communist's are identical, in fact as you must well know the communists killed far more than the Nazi's

How more odious are your views, defending Communist and Nazi's ifthey are Jewish. Try and deny thats racist.

And how can he be Jewish is he is a Communist? Its fundamentally at odds with atheistism.

Killing someone for their political beliefs is exactly what led to much of the trouble in Europe during the 20th century.

Yeah, funny Israel had no such problem with killing Nazi's. Killing Nazi's and Communists isn't because of their 'political beliefs', its because their are empire building, racist, genocidal murderers.

(in this case that it is entirely acceptable to murder a Jew due to their supposed political beliefs)

Apparently THE USA doesn't mind killing Communists for their 'political beliefs'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg

Neither does most of the western world

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

Including Britain, Killing Communists =Good

Now whats the Korean phrase they taugh GI's ?

당신이 유대인의 경우 당신을 죽일 수 없어.
Ziemowit 13 | 4,204
3 Jul 2012 #37
And now I wish for that the moderator would delete this threat as it will bring nothing but a negative response from someone who would see this for the first time.

You are new to the forum, so you do not understand yet that some people do need those **** discussions as fish needs water. For most part the discussions engage no one else but themselves, so my advice is pass onto those posts or occasionaly read them for fun, just as I do.

The reality in Poland (and I have always lived in Poland since birth) is quite different from the one presented by some extremists here. When discussed, the complicated Polish-Jewish relations should not be brought onto this level of shameful rubbish as it is being done here by some posters. I sometimes have a say in the problems of Polish-Jewish relations, but if you click my name to explore my posts further, you will see that one might discuss difficult things in a calm and friendly tone. What some posters post and the way they do it, is more the matter for psychological investigation and diagnosis than for anything else.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,262
3 Jul 2012 #38
Yeah, funny Israel had no such problem with killing Nazi's. Killing Nazi's and Communists isn't because of their 'political beliefs', its because their are empire building, racist, genocidal murderers.

Could argue these days that this equally applies to Americans...
Harry
3 Jul 2012 #39
How more odious are your views, defending Communist and Nazi's if they are Jewish. Try and deny thats racist.

I see that you have given up any pretense of debating what I say and have instead simply decided to lie about what I say. We both know that I have never defended any Communist or any Nazi, Jewish or not. That you choose to tell such pathetic lies speaks volumes about you. Oh, and well done for getting an accusation of bogus racism in there too.

Communist committed Holocaust in Poland,

I'm not sure that that statement is one of such ignorance that I want to cry or such a bare-faced lie that I want to laugh out loud.

IF he was a Communist, killing was justified.

So you support the slaughter of millions of Poles. Interesting.

As for what Poles owe Jews, one thing they do not owe is an apology for the views of people who think that the holocaust was committed by communists or that slaughtering millions of Poles would have been acceptable because they were members of the communist party: such idiocy is very simply never found in Poland.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
3 Jul 2012 #40
Harry, so you deny that communists killed millions of catholic Poles, Ukrainians and others? The holocaust only happened to YOUR people eh? Everybody else doesn't count? Millions of catholic Poles were sent to death camps by the communists.

They were exterminated by the Communists, it was part of the Holocaust, killing catholics and Jews alike.

You ignore that the Communists INVADED and OCCUPIED Poland. Killing an invader or its supporters is not only justified, its justified under UN Law, the right to defend yourself.

decided to lie

such a bare-faced lie

such pathetic lies

You just love you lies and half truths don't you.
Harry
3 Jul 2012 #41
Harry, so you deny that communists killed millions of catholic Poles, Ukrainians and others?

Either quote me saying that or apologise for lying about me saying it.

The holocaust only happened to YOUR people eh?

As above, quote me saying that or apologise for lying about it.

Millions of catholic Poles were sent to death camps by the communists.

Could you perhaps tell us the names and locations of the communist death camps?

They were exterminated by the Communists, it was part of the Holocaust, killing catholics and Jews alike.

Please look up the word 'holocaust'.

It is so lucky that you weren't educated in Poland: otherwise Poland would owe the Jews of the world (and the rest of the world of course) an apology for having such terrible history lessons.
krakus - | 12
3 Jul 2012 #42
Could you perhaps tell us the names and locations of the communist death camps?

Try googling Gulag or just check wikipedia on this topic - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

I think that the word "owe" does not apply to our relations with Jews. We've been neighbours for a major portion of our history and just like neighbours we both learned from each other.

On both sides there are sins which should not be forgotten.
Harry
3 Jul 2012 #43
Try googling Gulag

I'm fairly well read when it comes to gulags thanks. I'd like to know which of them were death camps, as opposed to concentration camps, as peter claims they were.

On both sides there are sins which should not be forgotten.

But sadly they are all too often forgotten, or denied, on both sides.
jon357 63 | 15,378
3 Jul 2012 #44
The Gulag system had many types of camp and changed several times over the decades due to economic need and the vagaries of the regime The ones they sent the political prisoners to (especially Trotskyists) were sometimes set up especially so the prisoners didn't last long. Incidentally there were a much higher proportion of Jewish prisoners than in the Soviet Union as a whole.

I strongly recommend Anne Applebaum's book on the Gulag.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
3 Jul 2012 #45
so the prisoners didn't last long

Solzhenitsyn (I hope I got the transcription right) mentions "camps" which were no more than an empty space in the wilderness. Maybe a tent or two would have been put up. Transports of prisoners from Moscow or other far-away places who had miraculously survived their journey (which often lasted weeks) would be told they now must build the camp they had been sent to. Any good (warm) clothing or other luggage would be of course taken away from them. The weather conditions would be rather inclement, as is to be expected near the Arctic circle. In such circumstances I would not split hairs and start deliberating whether this would be a labour camp, a death camp, or a concentration camp.
Harry
3 Jul 2012 #46
In such circumstances I would not split hairs and start deliberating whether this would be a labour camp, a death camp, or a concentration camp.

Sorry but the difference between a death camp and any other type of camp is vast.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
3 Jul 2012 #47
. In such circumstances I would not split hairs and start deliberating whether this would be a labour camp, a death camp, or a concentration camp.

Death rates of 50% per year.

Either quote me saying that or apologise for lying about me saying it.

Quote -

I'm not sure that that statement is one of such ignorance that I want to cry or such a bare-faced lie that I want to laugh out loud.

So you support the slaughter of millions of Poles. Interesting.

Explain this? Are you saying millions of Poles voted for the Communist invasion of Poland in 1919 and 1939 (and 1944)? I'd like to see the election results.

Harry, what year did you decide to volunteer your services to Poland? Wasn't during the Communist era was it? Came over to support your comrades :)
Ironside 49 | 10,680
3 Jul 2012 #48
I am not lying, as is shown by the sentences of the WWII Polish underground courts handed down to the most notorious Jew murderers, i.e. death.

any links that link NSZ with those "murders"?
peterweg 37 | 2,321
3 Jul 2012 #49
Sorry but the difference between a death camp and any other type of camp is vast.

Of course, if the Communists did it it was a holiday camp. Dying was just a 50-50 game of chance.

any links that link NSZ with those "murders"?

Yes, Harry, evidence please, after all you are making accusations, you will need to back them up.
jon357 63 | 15,378
3 Jul 2012 #50
any links that link NSZ with those "murders

More than a hundred documented incidents relating to Polish partisans, some from the NSZ (the paramilitary wing of the Endecja regime).

Check out the Worczyn massacre, among others.
Harry
3 Jul 2012 #51
Death rates of 50% per year.

The AR death camps had death rates of approximately 99% per day: as in 99% of the people who got off the trains were dead within 24 hours.

Yes, Harry, evidence please, after all you are making accusations, you will need to back them up.

I have in the past posted numerous links about the NSZ murdering Jews. See this post for details about the NSZ murdering Jews who had fought their way out of the Warsaw ghetto during the ghetto uprising.

Quote

You were asked to quote me denying that communists killed millions of catholic Poles, Ukrainians and others or to quote me saying The holocaust only happened to my people. You have failed to do either of those thing. Could that be because yet again you've been shown to be a liar? I wonder.

Harry, what year did you decide to volunteer your services to Poland? Wasn't during the Communist era was it?

No, it wasn't. But do tell us what you decide to volunteer your services to Poland.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
3 Jul 2012 #52
a liar?

Your favorite word and technique.

But do tell us what you decide to volunteer your services to Poland.

Why, so I could be as Holy as Thou?

The AR death camps had death rates of approximately 99% per day: as in 99% of the people who got off the trains were dead within 24 hours.

Funnily enough, being dead is just as dead if it takes 24 hours or a year. The communist were experts at it and its gives communist apologists a great excuse- oops sorry they all died of natural causes while building a railway/road in -45c temps.

Nazi's did it quicker but the Communists did is better and more efficiently.
Harry
3 Jul 2012 #53
It very much seems that one of the things the Poles owe to Jews (and the other victims of the holocaust) is to not try to equate the gulags with the Nazi death camps. It is entirely understandable that nations such Lithuania to promote the 'double genocide / twin holocaust' theory, given the extensive involvement of those nations in the execution of the holocaust, but what do Poles stand to gain from making such a clearly false analogy?! The holocaust was a Jewish tragedy and a Polish tragedy (and a Romani tragedy): we should not stand by and let revisionists rewrite history and change the past.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
3 Jul 2012 #54
change the past.

But the Gulag did exist, and for much longer, almost for the duration of the USSR, and lots of Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, Jews of all nationalities, Germans (even a smattering of Americans and such) did die in them or at least suffer terribly. Also please remember that the Gulag system incorporated not only labour / concentration camps proper, but also a whole prison system, an interesting criminal code (under the provisions of which almost anything you did - or did not do - could be called a crime), as well as novel approaches to interrogation, torture, and "judgment". Millions of people died, and before they died, suffered the most horrible indignities as well as mental and physical torture. I, for one, do not see how this differs from the Nazi-implemented Holocaust. Actually, some survivors of both systems claimed that though the Nazis were brutal and implacable, they at least had a system and you could take advantage of this in one way or another. On the other hand, the Gulag system was completely unpredictable. Some people within the Gulag were powerful one day and imprisoned as traitors the next, some prisoners spent months shunted from one camp or prison to another without any reason, others were first sent off to die in some forgotten hellhole and then called back to Moscow because they had a background in theoretical physics... and then sent off to the Solovki all over again.
Harry
3 Jul 2012 #55
But the Gulag did exist

I have never said otherwise. But even the worst of the gulags cannot be compared to the AR camps.

even a smattering of Americans

More than a smattering, at least a few thousand and quite possibly tens of thousands.

But I fear we're getting too far off topic now. Perhaps you'd like to open a dedicated thread for this?
Ironside 49 | 10,680
3 Jul 2012 #56
The holocaust was a Jewish tragedy and a Polish tragedy (and a Romani tragedy): we should not stand by and let revisionists rewrite history and change the past.

so called Holocaust was done by the Germans.
Mass murders and gulags were done by Russians, Bolshevistic. The only people who are defending Bolshevism are Bolshevistic themselves or Trotskists.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
3 Jul 2012 #57
But I fear we're getting too far off topic now.

The topic being a senseless discussion of which dead people did things to other dead people, for reasons we don't even understand, in the distant past.
Ironside 49 | 10,680
3 Jul 2012 #58
he paramilitary wing of the Endecja regime).

Wrong. there wasn't any such thing. Antebellum government was formed by Legionaries and their Commandant and they were a political opponents of Endecja.
ND never formed any government.
jon357 63 | 15,378
3 Jul 2012 #59
Wrong. there wasn't any such thing

No. Read Tadeusz Piotrowski on the matter.
Ironside 49 | 10,680
3 Jul 2012 #60
Check out the Worczyn massacre, among others.

you mean that leftist BS ?

Units of the anti-Semitic NSZ, who were apparently responsible for the murder of 120 Jews in the village of Worczyn in the Ludmir District, joined the 27th Division of the AK.

Which is perpetuated by some murky Jewish sites because its fits their view of the world?
Have some read here:
docstoc.com/docs/79731983/A-TANGLED-WEB]


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