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What do Poles owe to Jews?


InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
5 Jul 2012 #121
Historia magazine for June, page 74, some article about Jews raiding Polish villages and taking things at will. (This is the issue with Hitler in a communist uniform on the cover.)

What is the article about and why do Historia publish it? Fact or propaganda ?
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sofijufka 2 | 191
5 Jul 2012 #122
Fact. It's about murder of the whole polish villages: Koniuchy, Naliboki by jewish-soviets "partisans"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naliboki_massacre
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koniuchy_massacre

citinet.net/ak/polska.php?Page=66&Lang=EN
minelinks.com/war/bandits_1.html
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
5 Jul 2012 #123
Thanks for posting a reply. Although I think Jewish involvement is merely alleged. We must be careful to keep to the facts, proven facts only.
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #124
Do you agree that the Communist committed genocide against the Poles in 1939-1941?

Do you feel that that is related to the topic of this thread? I don't.

What I will say is that something which Poles owe to Jews (and vice versa) is to tell the truth about the events of WII and the periods before and after it. Claiming that there was a 'double holocaust' is very simply not telling the truth.

Jews raiding Polish villages and taking things at will. ... What is the article about and why do Historia publish it? Fact or propaganda ?

I haven't seen the article but can tell you that it is most certainly based on fact: some Jewish partisans did raid the homes of some gentiles, both to get supplies and to punish gentiles who had murdered Jews or had helped the Nazis hunt down Jews. As for why they published it, one would hope that the reason was that they published it was so that everybody can learn from the mistakes of the past.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #125
What I will say is that something which Poles owe to Jews (and vice versa) is to tell the truth about the events of WII and the periods before and after it. Claiming that there was a 'double holocaust' is very simply not telling the truth.

So you are denying the Holocaust.
celinski 31 | 1,258
5 Jul 2012 #126
Seems to me the "Holocaust" is a multi million $$$ business. Prior to Poland regaining freedom the "Holocaust" said there where 6 million Jewish Poles. After Poland was freed the number was cut in 1/2. We now have 3 million Jewish Poles and 3 million non Jewish Poles. Therefore Poland should receive the monies from the Holocaust that was donated for Holocaust victims.
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #127
So you are denying the Holocaust.

a) That's off-topic.
b) That's a lie.
c) That's a blatant attempt at a personal insult.
d) To repeat myself yet again: something which Poles owe to Jews (and vice versa) is to tell the truth about the events of WII and the periods before and after it. Claiming that the Holocaust was actually committed by communists (which to many here is simply code for 'Jews') against Poles is a foul lie which does nothing other than to drive people apart.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,915
5 Jul 2012 #128
Thank you to you also for the reply. I don't have a link to the magazine, but I dare say the article is only available in print or by paid subscription.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #129
a) That's off-topic.

You brought up the subject of Poles killing communists.

So are you going to promise to stop you habit of posting vaguely related issues, solely for the purpose of causing racial strife?

Claiming that the Holocaust was actually committed by communists

I've said many times, the holocaust includes both catholics and Jews killed by Nazi's and Communists. I want you to acknowledge that genocide is genocide no matter the victims and give the catholics the same respect that the Jews deserve.

Nazis's and Communists are the same and should be treated the same, I find it unacceptable that you defend communism and the Hammer and Sickle. Why do you find it so difficult to acknowledge that the Communists were as bad as the Nazi, no family history of Communism is there?
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #130
historia.uwazamrze.pl/artykul/855436,888768-Zydzi-z-czerwona-Gwiazda.html

Thanks for that link. Pity that the full article isn't there.

It's interesting to read the reported comments of villagers that the AK were as much of a menace as the Germans.

I want you to acknowledge that genocide is genocide no matter the victims and give the catholics the same respect that the Jews deserve.

Genocide is genocide. But only specific instances of genocide were part of the holocaust. It is fascinating that you focus so much on Catholic Poles and clearly want us to completely ignore the people who suffered more than anybody in the Holocaust.

You brought up the subject of Poles killing communists.

Oh dear. As my first post said "Just as Polish 'soldiers' from organisations such as NSZ hunted down Jews and murdered them." Not a mention of communists. But still you carry on claiming that I talked about Poles killing communists. Can you really not be more imaginative with your lies? Or at least tell ones where I have to look further than this very thread to demonstrate that they are lies.

I find it unacceptable that you defend communism and the Hammer and Sickle.

I find it entirely unacceptable that you lie so flagrantly and so frequently about me. Or can you quote from posts where I defend communism? I'll look forward to the next insult you hurl or lie you tell in an attempt to cover up the fact that we both know you cannot quote any such.

Such a pity that certain people who claim to be Polish will not give to Jews what they owe Jews (i.e. to tell the truth about shared history) but demand that Jews give to them what Jews owe them (i.e. the exact same thing).
Hipis - | 227
5 Jul 2012 #131
The entering Red Army was greeted with joy by the Jews. Groups of Jews, sometimes quite large, did so in public in almost every locality taken over by the Soviet troops. Usually, they comprised youth and the poor, and among the Jews there were plenty of these, since poverty and high birth rate go together. Many enthusiastic supporters of the new regime showed up. Their numbers were sufficiently large to leave a lasting impression on the memory of not only Poles and the Ukrainians – whose testimonies can be suspected of lack of objectivity. The Jews themselves noticed their stupidity with the benefit of hindsight, writing that in the first period of the occupation their relations with the new arrivals from the East turned out very well.......
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #132
"Just as Polish 'soldiers' from organisations such as NSZ hunted down Jews and murdered them."

Thats the crux, they were communists weren't they? Its besides the point that the example you gave - the assailants were unknown - you just **** stirred.

BTW, on your favorite word - Liar

I've said many times, the holocaust includes both catholics and Jews killed by Nazi's and Communists. I want you to acknowledge that genocide is genocide no matter the victims and give the catholics the same respect that the Jews deserve.

So how do you come to this warped conclusion?

Poles and clearly want us to completely ignore the people who suffered more than anybody in the Holocaust.

Harry
5 Jul 2012 #133
Thats the crux, they were communists weren't they?

No they weren't. Leon Feldhendler was not a communist, but the NSZ murdered him. Prof. Yaffa Eliach's baby brother was clearly not a communist, but the NSZ murdered him. Keep telling your pathetic lies if you think it will help excuse the inexcusable.

here

There is not a single word of defense of communism. But of course you are welcome to claim that it is all a defense of communism. Anybody who reads it can see that you are just resorting to your usual trick of pointing at a white piece of paper and shouting "It's black! It's black! It's black!" until everybody stops paying any attention to the fact that the piece of paper is white.

So how do you come to this warped conclusion?

You have never once even acknowledged the existence of the people who suffered most under the holocaust: to you they apparently do not even exist.

The entering Red Army was greeted with joy by the Jews.

Why do you persist in telling such an obvious and thoroughly debunked lie? The truth of the matter is that some Jews greeted the Red Army with joy (perhaps they'd now be allowed to do things like becoming doctors or lawyers, things that couldn't do under the Polish government) and some Jews greeted the Red Army's invasion with alarm (perhaps they'd heard what a bastard Stalin was) and some had no strong feelings either way. But you have to lie about it, you have to claim that all Jews greeted the Red Army with joy.

Not only can you not give to Jews what you owe them as a 'Pole' (to tell the truth about them) but you have to lie about them instead.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #134
The truth of the matter is that some Jews greeted the Red Army with joy

I agree with you, its was only some.

But you better get a handle on you attitude to numbers

if a million dead Poles is worthy of the word holocaust

How many millions of dead are worthy of a word Harry? How many would be worthy of a the word?

Does it have to be three million? Six Million dead is only good enough, eh? anything less doesn't count?

Five million Nine Hundred and Ninety-Nine Thousand? Nope, unworthy dead.
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #135
How many millions of dead are worthy of a word Harry? How many would be worthy of a the word?

The holocaust was a very specific event in history which should be learned from; it is not a subject for linguistic debate. Pity you can't get your head round that concept.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #136
You have never once even acknowledged the existence of the people who suffered most under the holocaust: to you they apparently do not even exist.

You are someone what entirely deluded. Third time on the same page, I'll repeat this.

But aren't listening or discussing this with me - are you?
Hipis - | 227
5 Jul 2012 #137
Oh, I'm sorry Harry, I forgot to put my last post in quote marks and credit the author for his work.

That quote is from W czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali. Polska-Rosja 1939-1942. The Author is Professor Jan T Gross, I am sure you have heard of him. I found that quote while researching the online archives about Polish-Jewish relations which are on the Yad Vashem site. You have heard of Yad Vashem I assume Harry?
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #138
But aren't listening or discussing this with me - are you?

And again you completely fail to mention the people who suffered most under the holocaust. To you they appear to not even exist.

That quote is from W czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali. Polska-Rosja 1939-1942. The Author is Professor Jan T Gross,

Yes, I know where the quote is from: Gross is being selectively quoted to prove a point which the quoter wishes to make but which Gross never made. His words are being manipulated just as you attempt to manipulate people's words.
Hipis - | 227
5 Jul 2012 #139
Yes, I know where the quote is from:

ROFLMFAO Harry, if you knew where the quote was from you wouldn't have attacked me the way you did. You, my friend, have been caught out once again. I deliberately didn't use quote marks because I knew you would jump straight down my throat with a response claiming I was lying and true to form that is exactly what you did. Just as John Morrison didn't use quote marks when he posted his compilation of witness statements.

Now lets get back to other things, have you any idea what a summary is? Let me help you on this one. A summary, synopsis, or recap is a shorter version of the original. Such a simplification highlights the major points from the much longer subject, such as a text, speech, film, or event. The purpose is to help the audience get the gist in a short period of time.

The article: kamunikat.fontel.net/www/czasopisy/bzh/07/07art_wierzbicki.htm
is a 7,728 word document which details the events of the Skidel uprising, it states quite clearly who the participants were, it even gives the names of some of the main protagonists, yet you choose to quote a 67 word summary because that suits your blinkered view point. Or is it because the summary is in English and you don't understand Polish?

Don't go away Harry, I'm just getting warmed up :)
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #140
if you knew where the quote was from you wouldn't have attacked me the way you did.

The partial quote is right here:

docstoc.com/docs/50458475/Thoughts-of-Professor-Tomasz-Strzembosz-on-Professors-Gutmans-Diary

It is being quoted out of context to prove a point which Gross would never make. Just as you selectively quote from people's posts to make them say what they would never say.

Now lets get back to other things, have you any idea what a summary is?

A summary is something which I referred to in one of my posts, specifically the contents of it. You then partially quoted me and removed my reference to the summary and claimed that I had said that about the entire article. And then you lied about removing that reference. Pretty pathetic work there.

yet you choose to quote a 67 word summary because that suits your blinkered view point.

I quoted from it because I could copy paste it and not rewrite it on my phone's screen.

Or is it because the summary is in English and you don't understand Polish?

Your Polish is far from fluent. In fact you describe your knowledge of it as "low", don't you.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #141
And again you completely fail to mention the people who suffered most under the holocaust. To you they appear to not even exist.

So who suffered most under the Holocaust, if it wasn't the Jews?
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #142
As I have said here repeatedly, in terms of number murdered compared to population size, nobody suffered more in the holocaust than the Romani. An entire language was killed off in the Porajmos.
Ironside 49 | 10,680
5 Jul 2012 #143
No. Read Tadeusz Piotrowski on the matter.

It is only his opinion, in fact ND never was part of the government. They were in oppositions to the government.

I asked you to quote from a post in which I talked about all Poles (and for some strange reason you fail to quote that) but instead you quote from a post in which I talk about the nation of Poland

As usual a dog has more honour than you Harry.
You said the nation of Poland. What is a meaning of that ?
It means all Poles because all Poles are part of the nation or possibly most Poles. You couldn't mean some Poles because it doesn't make sense in the nation contexts.

Yet again you lie.

Historia magazine for June, page 74, some article about Jews raiding Polish villages and taking things at will

Check here:
docstoc.com/docs/79731983/A-TANGLED-WEB
A TANGLED WEB Polish-Jewish Relationsin Wartime Northeastern Poland by Mark Paul!
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #144
As usual a dog has more honour than you Harry.

Always excellent to see you starting off by hurling insults, tells us all exactly how strong you know your argument to be.

You said the nation of Poland. What is a meaning of that ?

Poland, largish European nation, just take the road from Berlin to Moscow, you can't miss it.

Looking forward to your next set of insults.
peterweg 37 | 2,321
5 Jul 2012 #145
As I have said here repeatedly, in terms of number murdered compared to population size, nobody suffered more in the holocaust than the Romani. An entire language was killed off in the Porajmos.

So why did you bring this up after tell me to stick to topic? Oh, I know - to change the subject.
Harry
5 Jul 2012 #146
I just found it very interesting that you expected Jews to constantly remember the genocide carried out against Poles which some Jews played a part in, that Jews owe that to Poles, but you appear to have completely forgotten about the genocide against Roma which some Poles played a part in. Do Poles not owe to Roma what Poles owe to Jews and Jews owe to Poles?
jon357 63 | 15,378
5 Jul 2012 #147
It is only his opinion, in fact ND never was part of the government. They were in oppositions to the government.

Yes it is indeed his opinion. The opinion of a respected Polish academic, based on exhaustive research and eyewitness accounts.

By the way. Your comment about ND, or the openly racist Endecja movement is neither here nor there. But at least one part of your comment is fortunately true - the voters ensured they were in opposition. Having said that. It would be a shame To taint the entire NSZ by the actions of a minority.

genocide against Roma

Some dreadful parts of the Poraimos happened here.

And if the Jewish community were as underassertive as the Roma in this matter, so much of the Holocaust would have been swept under the table too. As a few here wish it had been.
Ironside 49 | 10,680
5 Jul 2012 #148
Yes it is indeed his opinion. The opinion of a respected Polish academic, based on exhaustive research and eyewitness accounts.

I have never heard about him. Still it is only his opinion !

the openly racist Endecja movement

Racist ? Don't be daft, ND wasn't racist in any shape or form.

Poland, largish European nation, just take the road from Berlin to Moscow, you can't miss it.

Looking forward to your next set of insults.

As per usual off-topic and off-licence !
Still - some Poles doesn't equal the nation of Poland, another lie of yours.
Bye bye !
jon357 63 | 15,378
5 Jul 2012 #149
Racist ? Don't be daft, ND wasn't racist in any shape or form.

The are threads aplenty here detailing the racist actions and words of the Endcja movement and reams on the Internet if you care to look.

And simple because you haven't heard of the late Dr Piotrowski doesn't mean he wasn't a very eminent historian.
Ironside 49 | 10,680
5 Jul 2012 #150
And simple because you haven't heard of the late Dr Piotrowski doesn't mean he wasn't a very eminent historian.

true but on the other hand it doesn't mean that he was !

The are threads aplenty here detailing the racist actions and words of the Endcja movement and reams on the Internet if you care to look.

Yet you still do not understand, their anti-Jewish (not only, also others minorities) stance wasn't racially motivated !


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