I don't know him and I don't know his works - I'm in no position to judge !
However this comment actually manages to top it. Must be a record for PF.
eh? It wasn't racially motivated! If you are standing on PC nowadays views then ND were racist, but then almost everything is racist for PC gurus. Except for white non-Jewish males that is !Who are no disciples or gurus of PC !
They are fair pry for any manics with grudge or mental problem or out to make some money ! Mostly they are target of the racist abuse by the PC brigade!
I wonder if that would work if you were doing a degree - "if you want references try Google". I would have thought that when someone is making a claim about something then in order to prove they knew what they were talking about then a link should be provided eg when Harry said this
It is being quoted out of context to prove a point which Gross would never make.
he failed to provide any evidence to back this up. So if you have evidence about the NDs in pre war Poland being motivated by racism or anti Semitism then you should provide evidence to back up your statement. If you say it's readily available via a Google search then I'm sure you will have no trouble providing us with links just as I am sure Harry should have no trouble providing me with a link proving that what Gross wrote in his book was being quoted out of context. :)
Although I think Jewish involvement is merely alleged
Alleged is only that anyone from brothers Bielski killed these peasants with their own hands, but their partisants did. And brothers Bielski were no saints
when someone is making a claim about something then in order to prove they knew what they were talking about then a link should be provided
Interesting that you say that but that you failed to provide a link to what you claim Gross said.
I wonder why you failed to provide a link. Could it be that the only references on google to what you claim Gross said are to the "Thoughts of Professor Tomasz Strzembosz" (i.e. not the words of Gross)? Or perhaps it could be that the supposed quote is actually from W czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali and that book has no English translation, which would mean that Gross very simply did not write what you claim he did.
I mean, it must be one of two things: either a professor of history at Yale university said that the 100,000 Jews who served in the Polish army in 1939 greeted the Red Army with glee, or somebody who has been shown in this very thread to be a liar is in fact lying about what the professor said. I wonder which it is.
There you go again Harry, distorting things to suit your own twisted reality. The only person here who thinks I am a liar is you. You're not even consistent with your arguments and the very fact that you cannot even provide any proof that Jan T Gross's writing has been taken out of context further goes to prove that your ramblings are your own personal opinions. Provide me with proof that what Gross wrote has been taken out of context, your fragile credibility could be strengthened somewhat if you can carry out this one piece of information.
I wonder if that would work if you were doing a degree - "if you want references try Google". I would have thought that when someone is making a claim about something then in order to prove they knew what they were talking about then a link should be provided eg when
This isn't a degree course, this is an Internet forum. Ironside, for all his good qualities was taking the thread off topic by questioning someone's credentials. By the way, I made no 'claims'. Only statements of facts. That the gentlemen whose book I cited was an eminent historian (perhaps you expect me to link to all his published works and university appointments!) and they the Endecja movement was racist (no doubts there!).
But then again, since you don't really have anything to say in this thread, it isn't any wonder that your thrashing about looking to go off at a tangent.
This thread went way off topic a long time ago. I am not disputing what you say about the ND's as I am of the same opinion but it would be a lot easier if you provided links to back things up. It saves a lot of arguments :)
Alleged is only that anyone from brothers Bielski killed these peasants with their own hands, but their partisants did. And brothers Bielski were no saints
Please be aware when quoting the Daily Mail that
The Daily Mail, the newspaper that famously supported Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists, has published an article openly supporting French Fascist candidate Marine Le Pen. In an article that appeared beside a photo of child-killing mass-murderer Anders Breivik, despite admitting that Le Pen's economic policies "are both foolish and futile", Richard Waghorne claims that "the only responsible vote in France... is a vote for Marine Le Pen", because the National Front "has highlighted the country's right to defend its national identity".
The only person here who thinks I am a liar is you.
I've already shown that you lied in this very thread. In this post I pointed out that in this post you edited a quote from me by leaving out part of it and in this post you denied leaving it out. None of us just think that you're a liar, we can all see that you are.
Provide me with proof that what Gross wrote
This would be the alleged statement by Gross which you have repeatedly failed to give any source at all for. And this would be the same statement which you claim was made in English in a book which was written in Polish. I wonder why you have failed to explain why prof. Gross decided to write a section in English in a book that was written in Polish.
But then again, since you don't really have anything to say in this thread, it isn't any wonder that your thrashing about looking to go off at a tangent.
It seems that some people will do almost anything to prevent other people from talking about what Poles owe to Jews.
Just one individual, isn't it so as much point in you posting that as in me posting this:- thejc.com/news/uk-news/50119/pensioner-gagged-and-left-die-slow-death
Two Polish men broke into 83-year-old Eveline Kelmenson's house through the basement in the middle of the night, before taping her to a chair, robbing her and ransacking her home, a jury at the Old Bailey was told.
Miss Kelmenson's decomposed body was found in her bedroom in Leweston Place on January 1 2009, after concerned relatives visited her home and called the police.
Oh, here is another link hackneygazette.co.uk/news/polish_fugitive_convicted_of_killing_stamford_hill_pensioner_eveline_kelmenson_1_933274
That quote is from W czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali. Polska-Rosja 1939-1942. The Author is Professor Jan T Gross, I am sure you have heard of him. I found that quote while researching the online archives about Polish-Jewish relations which are on the Yad Vashem site. You have heard of Yad Vashem I assume Harry?
yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205416.pdf If this excerpt from the book isn't true do you really think that Yad Vashem would have it on its site?
Now you can prevaricate and obfuscate as much as you want Harry but you still haven't shown to me
It is being quoted out of context to prove a point which Gross would never make
Exactly what Jews owe Poles: the duty to tell the truth about (their greatly shared) history. Sadly some people here wish to lie about that shared history and to paint 'the other side' as being to blame for everything.
If this excerpt from the book isn't true do you really think that Yad Vashem would have it on its site?
What Yad Vashem have on their site is what a certain professor claims to be the truth ("Thoughts of Professor Tomasz Strzembosz"). They also have a statement on their site which presents the opposite views to Professor Tomasz Strzembosz. We can find it here:yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%204797.pd f
I wonder why you did not link to that document? Could it be because the document makes the point that
Professor Strzembosz explains his ignorance by the fact that he does not "speciali[ze] in Polish-Jewish relations."
Show me the evidence.
You are claiming that Gross said something: it is for you to prove that he said that.
I note that you have carefully avoided making any attempt to address the question of why prof. Gross decided to write a section in English in a book that was written in Polish. Pity for you that we all know the answer to that point.
Harry, you made the claim that Gross is being quoted out of context and it is something he wouldn't say. Prove that your claim has credibility. Stop trying to change the subject all the time. If you are so confident that your statement is true then show us the evidence to back it up.
I will happily do that, just as soon as you prove that the statement was even made by Gross. I mean, it will be impossible for me to prove that the statement is being taken out of context if the statement was never actually made. You claim that he said it: you prove that he did. Of course, if you're nice enough to also show us the context in which the statement was made, we'll all be able to see that the statement was taken in context. But right now all we can see is somebody claiming that a book written in Polish has a most peculiar passage in it which is in English. Oh, and we see the claim is being made by a poster who has already been caught lying about what he himself said in this very thread.
Don't you think that Poles owe Jews the duty to tell the truth about (their greatly shared) history? You certainly do not act like you think that.
Sadly some people here wish to lie about that shared history and to paint 'the other side' as being to blame for everything.
that wouldn't be Poles then, nor Polish government building Museums of Polish Jews form taxpayers money for about 400 millions zloty. I think Harry that you are preaching to the wrong crowd here. You should go to some Jewish forums. Pronto!
No Harry, the onus is on you to show that your statement is true. I am not doing your work for you. By refusing to back your statement up it is safe to assume you already know you it not to be true. Twist and turn as much as you like, try and divert attention to other issues as much as you like, you need to prove that the statement you made about what Gross wrote being taken out of context is true. If you are unable to do that then it is glaringly obvious that you know what you wrote to be false.
the onus is on you to show that your statement is true.
You claim Gross made a statement: we don't even know the statement was actually made. Give us the statement and we can see the context in which it was made. You claim it was made. You show it to us.
By refusing to back your statement up it is safe to assume you already know you it not to be true.
You are the one refusing to back your statement that Gross made the statement attributed to him by somebody else.
And you are the one refusing to explain why a book which was written in Polish has a very peculiar passage in it which is in English. I wonder why you won't do that.
Oh, and you are the one who refuses to say whether Poles owe Jews the duty to tell the truth about (their greatly shared) history. Now why might you refuse to address that statement.
Let's get over this one point and I will be more than happy to address many of the other points you have raised, I'll even let you choose which one we can tackle next but in the meantime, provide me with evidence to back up your statement, a statement that you made when you claimed you knew where the quote was from so thereofre no further need for me to prove to you that it was written by Gross as you have already acknowledged the fact. You were very quick to say you knew where it was from then go on to say it was taken out of context so therefore you must know this book very well to have made such a statement. Your words Harry, there for all to see. So what is it, you know the book well or you don't? You can back your statement up or you can't?
I know exactly where it is from: it is from "Thoughts of Professor Tomasz Strzembosz on Professors Gutman’s Diary.", just as shown by the link you have provided. If you want to claim those words are in W czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali. Polska – Rosja 1939-42, give us proof of that: shows us where in W czterdziestym nas Matko na Sybir zeslali. Polska – Rosja 1939-42 it says "The entering Red Army was greeted with joy by the Jews."
no further need for me to prove to you that it was written by Gross
Further need? You have offered us no proof at all that Gross wrote those words. All you have offered us is a claim by somebody else that Gross said them and a translated claim at that. Show us where Gross wrote those words. Oh, sorry, I forgot that you can't.
Then, the complete truth also involves such elements as: - The willingness (or a lack thereof) of the Jewish minority to integrate with the Polish society - The level of participation of Jews in the totalitarian Communist apparatus - The loyalty of Jewish citizens to the Polish state (or a lack thereof)
Are you sure that you want the complete truth? Based on my prior experience, you rather prefer a cherry picked subset of the truth, where the above listed subjects are carefully suppressed. You just want one element: the dislike of Jews by Poles (and its real and imagined consequences) to be emphasized, generalized, and stripped of context. But if you really want the whole truth, then I am ready to discuss.
All you have offered us is a claim by somebody else that Gross said them and a translated claim at that.
Gross has his works published in both Polish and English as I am sure you are more than aware of. You are the one who has claimed it is only a Polish work. As Gross is fluent in both Polish and English I think he is more than capable of writing his own words equally well in both languages without the need for a translator. So, once again, show me proof to back up your comment.
