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Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond


Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363
12 May 2010 #61
Even if the number was 3,5 mil (I'm too lazy to check) it's very low considering we are talking about 35 million nation and pure terror commies unleashed to 'convinced' unbelievers. They had more success in your beloved DDR.

Well, you had to be of age and all those communist party members had supporting families...

The GDR was on the frontline of the cold war, the invisible battle field (agents, spies, assassinations and so on) and had still a huge number of the Red Army stationed on it's soil till 1989 but still I would never try to put the blame on the Russians, the Jews or the Marsians...I know that we did it all by ourselves.

Sometimes I think for many Poles the war had been easier...the battle lines were clearly drawn.
But post war Poland was not so easy! Stop looking for someone else to blame.
Piorun - | 658
12 May 2010 #62
At its height the Nazi membership numbered over 2 million members. Were all of them committed to the Ideology or simply signed on to enhance their career opportunities or perhaps even keep an existing job. Being a member and firmly believing in the Ideology are two different things. Being a member opened an opportunity for you which otherwise you could never have which reflects on the reality of the system you live in, not the beliefs you have. Were they all Nazi nuts, of course not only few at the very top and those were the ones that did most damage to the society as a whole, same in Poland during the communist rule.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
12 May 2010 #63
Being a member and firmly believing in Ideology are two different things.

Ok, now that we have established that, do you realise that this is in total contradiction of the things you stated earlier? If the Poles were so mordicus against the CP, why then would they join? If they are such a proud country then nobody would want to have to do anything with a hated institution? Would joining them not be the same as high treason against your country?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363
12 May 2010 #64
I just think "the Jews" are made again to a scapegoat for People unwilling to look sharper at the history. As nothing supports this story at all....pure logic and straight numbers speak against it.

But it's so easy to blame this mysterious "Jew" for every wart...really "eternal"....
Bzibzioh
12 May 2010 #65
Stop looking for someone else to blame.

It's not about blaming anyone. It's a fact that East Germans embraced Communism more enthusiastically than Poles ever did. If not for a Russians communism would be some fringe party nobody takes seriously in Poland.

And that fraction would be able to terrorize a vastly bigger group of unwilling?

You don't know much about sociology of terrorism.
1jola 14 | 1,879
12 May 2010 #66
and there couldn't be that many Jews left in Poland after the war (communist or not) to single handedly terrorizing the Poles.

I'll have to run a thread on this and explain the Ministry of Public Security in the years 1940-1956. Looks like this a blank for most of you.

Face it guys, the biggest part of the terrorizing after the war did non-jewish Poles, your very own people, I don't know why some of you have such a problem with admitting that.

Face it, you know nothing about who was terrorizing who.

In East-Germany for example the worst bootlickers of the Soviets were ex-Moscow hardcore Stalinists...Germans!

I might be shocking to you, but Poland was not Germany.
Piorun - | 658
12 May 2010 #67
If the Poles were so mordicus against the CP, why then would they join?

3.5 million you are talking about was at the height of communism in Poland 1970’s at which point people already had to come to terms with the reality of life. Hell you had to be a member of the party if you wanted to be a principal of some provincial elementary school otherwise you could not have that job, same for any job in a leadership role from director of some factory to God knows what, not to mention the fact of having an access to better schools for your children, perhaps study abroad or even travel. Yes lot have took the advantage of the perks’ that system offered, well after the retribution and purges of what was deemed to be a dangerous element capable of toppling the New Communist regime, but we are talking about the period right after the war when all those retributions of the AK members took place, so yes the upper echelon were Jewish and Polish communist membership minuscule.

BTW the great numbers you sited somehow still manege to stand against the system and participated in genera strikes, showing real commitment on their part to the system.
1jola 14 | 1,879
12 May 2010 #68
And 3 per cent was determining what happened with the remaining 97 per cent? Don't think so.

How many Germans did it take at Auschwitz to gas a million Jews? The reaction to your answer will be: You must be joking.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363
12 May 2010 #69
It's a fact that East Germans embraced Communism more enthusiastically than Poles ever did. If not for a Russians communism would be some fringe party nobody takes seriously in Poland.

Well, you kept it till 1989 too as I remember....first the Jews did all the opressing and communisting now you were at least braver as the Eastern Germans? What next? ;)

Face it, you know nothing about who was terrorizing who.

The numbers say that the partaking of Jews was minimal (there weren't that many left and of those most would leave over the next decades - also pointing AGAINST a "jewish paradise").

That's leaves pure Poles...yes, sometimes it's that easy!

I might be shocking to you, but Poland was not Germany.

And?
No eastern german troops helping to destroy the Prague Spring but polish tanks...if that's what you mean?

Oopsie....am I destroying a polish myth here? About the brave polish anti-communist resisters who grumble every day at home against their jewish opressors???

I really would like to know where they were all the time till '89....
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
12 May 2010 #70
I just think "the Jews" are made again to a scapegoat for People unwilling to look sharper at the history. As nothing supports this story at all....pure logic and straight numbers speak against it.
But it's so easy to blame this mysterious "Jew" for every wart...really "eternal"....

Of course it is easier to blame some other group than to have to take responsibility for one's own deeds.

You don't know much about sociology of terrorism.

Terrorism? I just read one of your bystanders state that quite a few ppl joined the club as it was profitable for them. And it sheds a different light on the ever so pronounced "heroism" of the Poles as being glorified so many times on this forum.

I appreciate that it was a tough time and I am not diminishing any terror, but I just don't think it was the Jews responsible for this. I understand the psyche of blaming the Jews for it, but it just doesn't make any sense. A very small group within a much bigger group can be silenced all too easily from within and IF the Jews terrorized everybody and everything so much, why then did the vast majority of Polish members of the CP nothing about it? Or could it be that they agreed to it? But I don't think it was the Jews who terrorized as much as it was the entire CP who did it. Jews and non-Jews included.

How many Germans did it take at Auschwitz to gas a million Jews?

This still doesn't explain the massive Polish participation in things.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
1jola 14 | 1,879
12 May 2010 #71
That's leaves Poles...yes, sometimes it's that easy!

Only a conclusion an uninformed person would make. It's not a crime to be ignorant of certain things, especially when they are of no interest to that person.

Still a little miffed about this morning where you came out all guns blazing without any ammo? Get over it.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363
12 May 2010 #72
Only a conclusion an uninformed person would make.

Why?
Explain to me why you are blaming the Jews for the communism in Poland...
I've brought numbers and info...they speak to me that the numbers of the Jews were just to tiny and that they were always shrinking...no jewish paradise at all.

Still a little miffed about this morning where you came out all guns blazing without any ammo? Get over it.

No, I'm really interested...gimme some reasoning please. I want to know how your polish mind ticks because till now I just don't get it.

All facts speak against your "The mean Jews oppressed us"-theory...
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
12 May 2010 #73
In March 1968 student-led demonstrations in Warsaw (see Polish 1968 political crisis) gave Gomułka's government an excuse to try and channel public anti-government sentiment into another avenue.

From same link as above. If Jews were such prominent members in all the decision-making roles, why then did this happen?

I've brought numbers and info...they speak to me that the numbers of the Jews were just to tiny and that they were always shrinking...no jewish paradise at all.

So did I, but the tendency is to call it all lies if it doesn't fit the popular image. Indeed, it just doesn't seem logical based on absolute numbers and given the mistrust of Jews already present in PL in the years 1944-1946.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Piorun - | 658
12 May 2010 #74
If Jews were such prominent members in all the decision-making roles, why then did this happen?

Internal bickering over desired positions which proves that they were held by the Jews and Polish communists envied.

but the tendency is to call it all lies if it doesn't fit the popular image. Indeed, it just doesn't seem logical based on absolute numbers and given the mistrust of Jews already present in PL in the years 1944-1946.

If there ever was such a great mistrust back in 40’s there wouldn’t be any purges in the late 60’s at which time 14,000 top positions finally open to the Poles previously held by Jews with no party affiliation whatsoever, what a joke.

Oh please....after the Holocaust there just weren't enough Jews left to terrorize all the people even if every one of them left felt the burning desire to do so.

So tell me how many brown shirts did it take for Hitler to terrorize every decent German into submission or at least to keep them all quiet and not to interfere on behalf of their neighbors. Repressions against Jews already started,were they all blind or just supporting Nazi ideology? I mean 70 million people is a lot to handle, they were all were Nazis I suppose. Not so many I’ll bet, draw a parallel from your own society before making a ridicules argument claiming not to understand Polish mentality is it really that different? Being German yourself you would have to admit that burning desire is a hell of a motivating factor for few well placed nuts in the government to make a hell of a mess of things. I mean to sell the idea of exterminating entire people to the rest of German society and for them to remain silent, hell even their own mentally retarded or political opponents. Even today most people are a-political and don’t even participate in elections. Minority Seem to rule majority of the so called sophisticated democratic states of today.

Poles are humans like anybody else. You don't sh*it gold!

So are the Jews, it doesn’t take much for Jewish zealot to take his frustration out on next best thing (Pole) if he doesn't know any better, it's not out of the question either. Hell they still whine about the fact that it all took place on Polish soil and not fully come to grips on what had truly transpired at that time, funny as it may seem many of them are convinced of the fact it was the Poles, I guess they skipped school for the most important lesson in their own recent history otherwise they would have known it was the Nazis. We’re not talking about some uneducated morons either but respected journalist with crafty titles like “Polish concentration camp.”

So what were they? Jews, Russians, Jewish implants from Russia, Martians cloned by the Soviets? What?

I thought we established that they were implants, perhaps not as good as the Hollywood plastic sergeant can make them these days but just the same.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #75
If there ever was such a great mistrust back in 40’s there wouldn’t be any purges in the late 60’s at which time 14,000 top positions finally open to the Poles previously held by Jews with no party affiliation whatsoever, what a joke.

If there wasn't such a big mistrust and if PL was a Jewish paradise, why then did so many Jews leave PL in the years immediately after WW2 as I have showed you?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Piorun - | 658
13 May 2010 #76
On contraire, Poland was hell for all of the decent Jews, wounds still fresh and plenty of bad memories of Nazi horror recently experienced, devastation all around, nothing really to go back to. There was a new promise land for them forming in the ME believe it or not news of which reached Poland too and if you have to start all over again why not in a place where you have not experience such horrors. As for the Implants Poland must have looked like paradise compared to the hell hole they crawled out of, where they could do what they please, knowing nothing of how civil society functions which btw they proved through their actions.
Bzibzioh
13 May 2010 #77
why then did so many Jews leave PL in the years immediately after WW2

Don't be ridiculous: anybody who could get a passport would leave no matter Polish or Jewish. Poland was in economical and physical ruin with big brother terrorizing everybody. So no surprise that average not-communist Jewish family with any relatives abroad would leave.
Piorun - | 658
13 May 2010 #78
So no surprise that average not-communist Jewish family with any relatives abroad would leave.

Unlike Poles Jews were encouraged and allowed to leave by their brethren in power.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #79
On contraire Poland was hell for all of the decent Jews, wounds still fresh and plenty of bad memories of Nazi horror and devastation all around, nothing really to go back to

Hm, and you are sure it's not because of the ongoing violence against Jews? Not necessarily violence because of their ethnicity, but for several reasons, political just being one of them and most of them based on false rumours, remnants of pre-war anti semitism and the like? Several historians have placed the number of Jewish death due to violence against them somewhere between 1000 and 1500 between the liberation and 1947. With so much violence against them (and right after the terrible human losses of WW2 1000 to 1500 might not seem such a big deal, but with about 100.000 Jews surviving the Holocaust it's still 10 per cent - a big number), isn't it surprising that Jews concluded that there was no future for them in PL? Couldn't that have been more reason to leave PL than bad memories? If it were only for the memories, they would not have come back in the first place. This was the land they grew up in, this was just as much their home as it was to the ppl who committed violence against them.

Edit: and what's this idiocy about that ridiculous believe that Jews use christian babies for ritual murders? Are ppl really so stupid to believe that?

>^..^<

M-G (and with those numbers confirmed by many historians, one cannot simply talk about incidents anymore; the number's too high for that)
Piorun - | 658
13 May 2010 #80
This was the land they grew up in, this was just as much their home as it was to the ppl who committed violence against them.

Exactly, who were those people and what was the motivation to insight the violence. Your own brethren were in power and did nothing to prevent those unfortunate incidents. It really should give you something to think about. Decent folks were encouraged to emigrate only to be replaced by Implants who had no ties to Poland therefore would not care. They were the ones that ruined your reputation so deal with it. I never heard of anyone really badmouthing anyone who was a Jew prior to the war. Worst ever said they kept to themselves, however after the war it's a whole new ball game especially when one of your relatives died for being a member of AK fighting Nazis and the prosecutor or presiding Judge was a Jew. That’s the reason for the relationship to go sour but who’s willing to admit that?
Bzibzioh
13 May 2010 #81
Hm, and you are sure it's not of the ongoing violence against Jews?

Yes, there was a planned and well organized action to hunt down and kill all the remaining Jews as Poles at the time had no other real problems to deal with and needed entertainment. That was a highlight of the day for many.[sarcasm off]

Get real!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #82
Get real!

You know what? Why don't you cook us all a nice warm dinner and spare us of your anti-me related irrelevant posts. At least you will be doing sth useful instead of giving nonsensical comments just to show how much you hate me thereby disqualifying yourself. And I don't give a shyte if you hate me or not, so it's useless anyway. You're just not important enough.

Exactly, who were those people and what was the motivation to insight the violence. Your own brethren were in power and did nothing to prevent those unfortunate incidents. It really should give you something to think about. Decent folks were encouraged to emigrate only to be replaced by Implants who had no ties to Poland therefore would not care.

A quick and consise insight of the background of the anti-Jewish violence in Postwar PL:

After the war, Poles and Jews constituted two communities with two different but tragic war experiences, however the relations between Polish and Jewish communities worsened after the Soviet takeover of Poland in 1945. Polish Jewish survivors of the Nazi Holocaust returning home were confronted with fears of being physically assaulted, robbed and even murdered by certain elements in the society.[12][13] The situation was further complicated by the fact that there were more Jewish survivors returning from the Soviet Union than those who managed to survive in occupied Poland,[3] thus leading to stereotypes holding Jews responsible for the imposition of Communism in Stalinist Poland.

/wiki/Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944-1946

So we can safely assume that it was most rumors that sparked incidents. Oh and by the way: I am not a Communist.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Bzibzioh
13 May 2010 #83
You know what?

Yes, I know. You are one trick pony with this 'blame Poland for everything and anything remotely related to Jews in Poland' and your Wiki knowledge of Poland is not very impressive. Go and cook something, you sexist moron, maybe you are better at least at THAT.
Piorun - | 658
13 May 2010 #84
A quick and consise insight of the background of the anti-Jewish violence in Postwar PL:

And vice versa.

So we can safely assume that it was most rumors that sparked incidents.

If it was who was it spread by? For what purpose? To hasten the departure of the reluctant ones to promise land perhaps?
Way too many questions and speculation which will never be resolved on their own if there’s no open dialog or at least a willingness to talk about such things.

I am not a Communist.

Never said you were but the tactics you employ are, don’t talk about it, ridicule if you can or simply ignore it, it just might go away (out of sight out of mind).
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363
13 May 2010 #85
Unlike Poles Jews were encouraged and allowed to leave by their brethren in power.

You surely mean they purged themselves...

You are all crazy you know that?
Bzibzioh
13 May 2010 #86
You are all crazy you know that?

We are not all crazy but it helps :)
Piorun - | 658
13 May 2010 #87
You surely mean they purged themselves...

Still haven’t fully grasp the time period idea, have you? Let's see 1946-8 and 1968 a separation of 20 years, get it? One emigration to swell the numbers in a newly forming state another internal power struggle, is it really that hard to comprehend?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363
13 May 2010 #88
We are not all crazy but it helps :)

It must help....I should try something of this myself! :)

Still haven’t fully grasp the time period idea, have you?

I admit...I'm not polish and hence I really seem to have problems to grasp your reasoning.
I have numbers and stats and (typically German) I have to go by that....poor me! :(
Bzibzioh
13 May 2010 #89
Still haven’t fully grasp the time period idea, have you?

It's hard for foreigners and 70 years later to have full understanding what it was like to live then and what the circumstances were like. We have our grandparents to rely on, years of history classes at school - they have Wikipedia.

I admit...I'm not polish and hence I really seem to have problems to grasp your reasoning.
I have numbers and stats and (typically German) I have to go by that....:(

THAT is what I'm saying ...
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #90
I have numbers and stats and (typically German) I have to go by that....poor me! :(

So do I. But Wikipedia is of course biased as hell and doesn't tell the truth. But given the responses here one can conclude that it must be all the Jews' own fault what happened to them, at least according to the Polish participants.

I guess it's all part of the coming of age for Poland. Accepting own mistakes is part of the process. Every country has to go through it, everywhere in the world.

The funniest remark I found here, besides being insulted constantly for having my own opinion is that I act like a Commie. To me indeed everyone is equal, so in that sense yes, one could call me a Communist. If it is Communist to point out mistakes that happened, well then, the maker of the remark should review the definition of a Communist.

Another thing I learned once again that apparently it's ok for Poles to critise other countries, but not ok when other ppl critise Poland. Guess Anita was right.

>^..^<

M-G (that was actually the first time somebody called me a sexist. Remarkably, when it's coming from sb who kisses arse such many bloody times)


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