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Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond


masks98 27 | 289
13 May 2010 #91
I have many times explained that the focus was mainly on Jews due to the fact that right after WW2 Poland disappeared behind the Iron Curtain in the Cold War.

i think i have a better theory which is that the US and the UK (with tge rest if the west following suit) found it convenient to spotlight the crimes against the european jews as a way to build sympathy for israel. Much of what israel has done and still does today against the arabs is said to be in self-defense against the potential for anoter holocaust. The single statement which the iranian president has made about israel meeding to be wiped off the map has been used repeatedly o build support for anti-iranian measures.

Of course i cant prove that that is the precise reason why jews have been victimized above all others but doing so does serve the above-specified end.
Sire Brenshar 1 | 61
13 May 2010 #92
Btw to everyone, the Soviets Unions casualties of 20 million weren't all even killed by Nazis, indeed only between 5-9 were killed by Germans.

-The rest were murdered by the Soviets themselves.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #93
I'm gonna get back on that tomorrow as now I'm going to sleep. But in the meantime I would suggest you read up on the history of Israël between 1945 and it's declaration of independence in 1948. I would suggest you read about the treatment of the Jews by the British (Cyprus and all) and about the guerilla warfare held by the Jews against the British during that time and you will find that Britain had little love for the Jews. Also, the US might have contributing to this, but it did merely out of a guilty conscience as before the war they refused a substantial amount of Jewish refugees trying to flee Germany. But I will get back on that tomorrow. Now I will hit the sack. Good Night.

>^..^<

M-G (tired)
Mr Grunwald 22 | 1,641
13 May 2010 #94
We would be satisfied if they only wouldn't put Polish flags waving in a concentration camp. I think that was is Sophie's Choice.

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!?!?

Would joining them not be the same as high treason against your country?

That's why many Poles don't look at commie-Poles as Poles but more of as poles :)
(or just komuch they are their own "nationality")

You surely mean they purged themselves...

You are all crazy you know that?

For the last time... THE WERE SOVIETS!!! They had Jewish roots but they were SOVIETS!!!
Or some even Stalinists which is worse

But given the responses here one can conclude that it must be all the Jews' own fault what happened to them, at least according to the Polish participants.

I think it was the Dutch, their behind everything! I must have read somewhere that Hitler had an Dutch assistant. It's the Dutch fault!!!! (sarcasm off)

Huge impact of "Jewish" commies were transferred to Poland right after ww2 because
1. They wanted to get rid of them (theory not fact)
2. There were not many Polish commies left to give them the control because of the purges (even at that they were most unreliable if they didn't go through the Moscow "training") (Fact)

3. The communists in prewar Poland weren't even noticed so to speak, 1 of the reasons why "Nazi's" didn't occur in Poland or hard hated commies weren't that catching was because communists were in a tiny tiny tiny tiny little fraction

"Yet the party only managed to win 130,000 votes and two seats in the November 1922 elections."

"Despite that the KPP was now to be swept into the maelstrom of paranoia and suspicion that culminated in the Moscow trials and purges. First a number of its members were accused of being agents of the Polish regime, now led by The Colonels since Pilsudski's death in 1935, and liquidated as a result. Next almost the entire leading cadre of the party were enveloped by the Purges and murdered. Among those killed were: Albert Bronkowski, Krajewski, Józef Unszlicht, Adolf Warski, Maria Koszutska, Henryk Walecki, Lenski, Stanisław Bobiński, Ryng, Józef Feliks Ciszewski, Henrykowski, Sztande, Bruno Jasieński and Witold Wandurski. And still Stalin could not trust the Polish Communists and so finally the leaderless party was declared dissolved as a hotbed of Trotskyite agents. Most of the activists perished in the Great Purge, but some - particularly lower level - remained. During Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939 they were instrumental in organizing local population in Kresy to welcome the "liberators" of the Red Army.[2]"

/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Poland

Even the workers weren't that into this party because they opposed the new Polish state and was pro-Soviet Union during the Polish-Soviet war

This party had very little influence what so ever, later on "it" suddenly had great power after the war and many of the top leaders in the party had Jewish clinging names or looked Jewish or spoke kinda like Jews would speak when they tried to speak Polish. They were noticed, it still doesn't mean that the majority of Jews were commies in Poland (thank god ^^)

There were some Jewish parties during interwar Poland
Many of the Jews voted on Bund so I've heard from an former Isreali ambassador

/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Poland


MediaWatch 10 | 945
13 May 2010 #95
NOBODY has forgotten the plight of the Poles.

There are statistics and then there are "statistics". lol

Its amazing how people play around with numbers and how they change over the years where people are supposed to forget about how these numbers change from the past.

I have always heard that there were 3 Million Non-Jewish Poles who died in WWII. Now some people on this forum are running around talking about how TWO Million Non-Jewish Poles died. Well I guess if you repeat it over and over and over it must be a fact now, right? LOL

Before 1989 newspapers reported how basically 5.5 million Jews died in WWII. But that number varied from estimates from 4.2 million to 4.7 million and then rounded to SIX million from 5.5 million from the 70's on.

If you go to your local library and look at newspapers BEFORE 1990, they all say how 4.1 million Jews died at Auschwitz. But that number has been revised to now 1.1 million Jews who died there yet the total SIX million Jews number has not changed. Why is this?
Mr Grunwald 22 | 1,641
13 May 2010 #96
they all say how 4.1 million Jews died at Auschwitz

It was the only death camp? OMG! :o
1jola 14 | 1,879
13 May 2010 #97
I'm sorry. I made a mistake here. In Sophie's Choice(Oscar winner), Sophie visits the ghetto in 1938?!, and her Jew hating father hints the Poles had plans to exterminate the Jews before Hitler, some secret document existing to prove this extreme lie. Definitely Oscar material.

The Polish flag flying in a death camp is portrayed in QB VII. A friend, a Polish historian from Sweden, wrote:

The movie QB VII (1974) is based on a novel by Leon Uris. In this movie we have a Polish doctor who co-operates with the Nazis and performs terrible experiments on Jewish inmates. Most of the Nazi-characters are in the background and the focus is on Poles. In one of the movies end scenes we can see a Polish flag raised above a death camp.

This is nothing new. I goes back some time.

M.M.B. Biskupski's Hollywood's War with Poland, 1939-1945. amazon.com/Hollywoods-Poland-1939-1945-M-B-B-Biskupski/dp/0813125596

Product descripion:

In During World War II, Hollywood studios supported the war effort by making patriotic movies designed to raise the nation's morale. They often portrayed the combatants in very simple terms: Americans and their allies were heroes, and everyone else was a villain. Norway, France, Czechoslovakia, and England were all good because they had been invaded or victimized by Nazi Germany. Poland, however, was represented in a negative light in numerous movies. In Hollywood's War with Poland, 1939-1945, M. B. B. Biskupski draws on a close study of prewar and wartime films such as To Be or Not to Be (1942), In Our Time (1944), and None Shall Escape (1944). He researched memoirs, letters, diaries, and memoranda written by screenwriters, directors, studio heads, and actors to explore the negative portrayal of Poland during World War II. Biskupski also examines the political climate that influenced Hollywood films.

This sort of thing is a recurring theme in most Hollywood films.
OP irishlodz 1 | 135
13 May 2010 #98
And as for on-topic: I'm on topic as can be.

And you say I don't understand! The thread started as a discussion that the holocaust was not exclusively a word for Jewish victims of Nazi's. It's not. You assert in one line that it is exclusively for Jews, and then say that I must include Soviet victims. I am happy to include any civilian that suffered under the Nazi's. You are just being inconsistent.
1jola 14 | 1,879
13 May 2010 #99
It is best not to argue with him:

>^..^< M-G (I am historian, by the way, mask, therefore I do know a bit)

LoL. Historians who know bits work in IT for a good reason.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
13 May 2010 #100
The movie "Sophie's Choice" is a classical Anti-Polish movie meant to elicit hatred of Polish people by the people watching it. Especially among Jewish viewers.

Its a good example of Hollywood's Polish-Haters' hatred of Polish people.
1jola 14 | 1,879
13 May 2010 #101
Indeed. No argument here. The Pianist is one of the few where there is a decent reflection of reality of that period. When I saw it, I was surprised that not all villans were Poles as expected from a Hollywood production.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #102
Sophie's Choice

You do realise this film was made at the height of the Cold War? Any country from the Eastern Bloc was an enemy for the Americans back then. And since they are Americans, they don't have a clue of how it was divided into seperate countries. To them everything was Soviet Union and Soviet Union = bad. Americans are stupid, that is why.

I've seen so many movies portraying anything that was from behind the Iron Curtain as bad and evil, evil Czechoslovakian psychopaths, Bulgarian murderers, Russian murderers, Hungarian campguards; and all of them want to -of course- seize world domination. Just take the James Bond movies: before 1990 they were all fighting some Eastern European (super-) villain.

You seem to forget that the Cold War, even without any actual direct fighting, was indeed a war and the Soviets + allies were the enemy. Lots of Hollywood movies were meant as propaganda and it didn't matter what country from the Eastern Bloc you took, just pick one. And since PL was "renowned" for the KZ's on his soil, the connection is quickly made for easy success.

Bidupski talks about a poll held among Americans about the popularity of the SU which produced a staggering 72-4 per cent outcome in favour of the Russians and points this out as being a Leftist means of justification. What he forgets is that by then public opinion in the US was already on the Allied side and the American public felt for all those small countries that were invaded and occupied by Nazi Germany. Like Sweden and Switzerland, they were neutral, but not really neutral. Nazi Germany was the big enemy and any country who fought the enemy was a friend. SU war efforts relieved the West for a great deal and helped substantially to defeat Nazi Germany, the main aim at the time. To have PL endanger that was sth they could not afford as PL was a small fish in the pond and although a number of Polish soldiers had fled to the West and continued fighting for the Allied cause, their effort was not as substantial as the SU effort. Poland was a minor country on the fringe of things which happened to have the bad luck to be as well the ground on which factoriers of death were and after the war were part of an enemy state-system. Americans think black and white.

LoL. Historians who know bits work in IT for a good reason.

At least I make money :) And besides, I can always get my PhD after I retire. And pls don't pretend you're so smart, child, as far as I'm concerned you're just a reactionary twat that likes to view things from only one perspective. And better to know bits of everything unimportant and a lot about really important stuff than to know a lot about unimportant stuff and to cry about "aw, look at those evil Americans, they're only putting us in a bad daylight". Which is not even fully true, they did it with ALL Eastern Bloc countries. Only the other countries don't whine as much about it as the Poles do.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Mr Grunwald 22 | 1,641
13 May 2010 #103
I'm sorry. I made a mistake here. In Sophie's Choice(Oscar winner), Sophie visits the ghetto in 1938?!

Ohh, fuew

and her Jew hating father hints the Poles had plans to exterminate the Jews before Hitler, some secret document existing to prove this extreme lie. Definitely Oscar material.

wtf?!

Only the other countries don't whine as much about it as the Poles do.

Because Poland WANTS or thinks of herself as the eternal ally of the west, but that is changing dear friend! ;)
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #104
And you say I don't understand!

I think I have explained thoroughly enough what I meant by that in later posts in this thread. And in fact I have added more to the thread than your "yeah, but you said...". I have shown you why the picture was distorted, but apparently that wasn't enough for you as it didn't fit your picture. In fact it didn't fit in the picture of most contributors. History is unfair, we all know that. Nobody is denying the Polish suffering, but it should be put in perspective. The Poles suffered tremendously, yes, but they were not the only ones who did and I am just pointing that out. Sorry if it doesn't fit your or Jola's pre-decided opinion, but so be it. You have anything to add to the discussion besides stating the fact that I am "being inconsistent"?

Because Poland WANTS or thinks of herself as the eternal ally of the west, but that is changing dear friend

Every small ally got betrayed in some form after the war. You wouldn't want to know how much protests there were against the overpowering and overall role the US played in the Western world. If you think that we were all just lapdogs who barked at any of the US's wish, I think you should think again. PL is in her quest to seek vengeance for the betrayal of certain elements of the West so vigorously that it overlooks the many (smaller) countries that have always sympathised with her and have indeed, be it on a small scale, helped her in times of need. It may have been small, but at least it was sth. Never forget that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
MediaWatch 10 | 945
13 May 2010 #105
Only the other countries don't whine as much about it as the Poles do.

I agree with you that Hollywood has portrayed people from many East European nations in a negative light. But Hollywood's quantity and magnitude of Anti-Polish propaganda back in the day, exceeded the negative propaganda against other East European people, since Polish Americans are the largest East European ethnic group in the US.

And it was not an evil "American" bias against Poles and other East Europeans. It was a Leftist Hollywood bias against Poles/East Europeans. These Leftist bigots in Hollywood who were prejudiced against East Europeans, hardly had the values of the average American who is generally fair minded and not prejudiced against East Europeans.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #106
Polish Americans are the largest East European ethnic group in the US.

True, together with the Germans, Irish and Italians they were the biggest ethnic group in the US, the Germans being the biggest. This led to harsh discussions in 1914 whether the US should join the war on the UK side or the German side. Well, we know which side they joined. Later on, the Germans would become being portrayed also as the villains. Just try and count those post-war movies that contain some crazed up super evil professor who talks with a heavy German accent that he wants to rule the world. :)

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Mr Grunwald 22 | 1,641
13 May 2010 #107
Later on, the Germans would become being portrayed also as the villains. Just try and count those post-war movies that contain some crazed up super evil professor who talks with a heavy German accent that he wants to rule the world. :)

...
I thought he was French with a non-French accent ;)?
MediaWatch 10 | 945
13 May 2010 #108
That's true Germans have been portrayed negatively by Hollywood, although I haven't seen too many anti-German movies lately. Indeed Hollywood when it did portray Germans negatively, would try to demonize Germans. Along those lines, one of the silliest stereotypes that Hollywood and the liberal media tried to push onto the Germans is that the Germans "have on sense of humor because they are so evil"! How silly. Even villains have a sense of humor albeit a villain like sense of humor. This was part of the demonization process of Germans to make all things German evil. One German American friend of mine said that it was no accident that the Darth Vader helmet looked like a Nazi German helmet lol

Before there was a big Holocaust study push in the US, there were TV Shows like "Hogan Heroes" that made Nazi German soldiers look silly. Germans I know say this kind of light hearted show about Nazi Germans could never be shown on TV today since it would put Germans in a "human light" and go against today's Holocaust Groups' depictions of the "evil German". They say from a Holocaust group's perspective, it would be politically incorrect to show Nazi Germans to have this kind of light hearted image, like on "Hogan's Heroes".

Having said that, in recent years I really haven't seen many shows that are Anti-German. Documentary shows that show what happened in WWII I don't consider to be anti-German.
Mr Grunwald 22 | 1,641
13 May 2010 #109
One German American friend of mine said that it was no accident that the Darth Vader helmet looked like a Nazi German helmet lol

Finally I found my source of admiration of German helmets! :o
I never though of it! (/&)(=!/)?(=`")?¤!
MediaWatch 10 | 945
13 May 2010 #110
That's an interesting point. I think there are many people who do like Nazi German helmets. And these aren't Nazi sympathizers, just regular people who are interested in various military gear of all nations.

There are also many people who think Darth Vader was a "cool character". So maybe my German friend was overreacting when he talked about Hollywood's "anti-German bias" when referencing Darth Vader's helmet? Maybe Germans aren't portrayed by Hollywood as negatively as some say, afterall.
1jola 14 | 1,879
13 May 2010 #111
You do realise this film was made at the height of the Cold War? Any country from the Eastern Bloc was an enemy for the Americans back then.

Thanks for replying, pumpkin, and the only reason I'm replying is that you provide a venue for answering dumb wanna-be Jews as yourself. The film Sophie's Choice was made in 1982. I, as a Polish citizen, was in the US Air Force from 1980 to 1984, so during what you called the height of the Cold War. So, the US government did not see me as an enemy, quite the opposite, but you think that Hollywood did.

The fact that Hollywood films portray Poles and Poland in a bad light is irrefutable and it has nothing to do with Cold War but rather with hatred for Poles. There are racist Jews, you know, and you as someone proclaming antiracist views should not blindly defend them as you do just because they are Jews.

My discussions with you are about to end; you are wasting my time, and quickly becoming the laughing stock on PF.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #112
I, as a Polish citizen, was in the US Air Force from 1980 to 1984

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sure, and I, as Dutch citizen was Walesa's right hand. Get a grip. If you think that anybody believes that nonsense, you're even more stupid than I already thought you were.

My discussions with you are about to end; you are wasting my time, and quickly becoming the laughing stock on PF.

Fine with me, I never took you seriously anyway, especially not after above remark about the US airforce. But besides all that nonsense of being a fighter pilot and all, you just simply didn't understand the remark once again, didn't you? Ah well, doesn't surprise me at all, little lapdog, there is not much that you do understand, do you? Pls do PF a favour and leave this forum so we don't have to deal with your useless drivel anymore. Ahwwww, Hollowood made 4 or 5 movies with bad Poles in it! Somebody get a handkerchief, I nearly have to cry of laughing. Grow up, narrow minded man.

>^..^<

M-G (is it time for your afternoon walk again? Wait, let me get your leash, you're drooling all over the place and I feel another episode of the PF Omnibus coming on, fantastic)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
13 May 2010 #113
Fine with me, I never took you seriously anyway, especially not after above remark about the US airforce.

Why? He could hold a dual citizenship, i do, its not unusual for people to have them and not everyone makes stuff up all the time like you.
1jola 14 | 1,879
13 May 2010 #114
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Sure, and I, as Dutch citizen was Walesa's right hand. Get a grip. If you think that anybody believes that nonsense, you're even more stupid than I already thought you were.

I will prove to you on this board that what I say is true. In fact, at that time I was only a Polish citizen and not an American one. There is a price to pay though. If what I say is true and I can prove it by one of our posters in Warsaw verifying it, let's say Jonni or Harry, you will leave this forum for good. Still laughing?

But besides all that nonsense of being a fighter pilot and all,

I was not a fighter pilot, but I can also prove I trained astronauts and cosmonauts in my later jobs. Your call center job just doesn't seem all that exciting now, does it, pumpkin?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #115
I will prove to you on this board that what I say is true. In fact, at that time I was only a Polish citizen and not an American one. There is a price to pay though. If what I say is true and I can prove it by one of our posters in Warsaw verifying it, let's say Jonni or Harry, you will leave this forum for good. Still laughing?

And who are you to tell me to leave? I stay here as long as I want and as long as I think you're posting nonsense, I will have my say about it. And there is nothing that you can and will do about it. Little tip: this is not your forum. You can prove whatever you think you want to prove, but I am still staying here. Capice, sugar dumpling?

I was not a fighter pilot, but I can also prove I trained astronauts and cosmonauts in my later jobs. Your call center job just doesn't seem all that exciting now, does it, pumpkin?

I already figured out you couldn't become one. And heck, after building some of the biggest callcentres in Europe there isn't much that impresses me. Training gymnastics to Astronauts is neither that impressive. So I am still laughing.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
1jola 14 | 1,879
13 May 2010 #116
And who are you to tell me to leave?

I am not telling you to leave, read what I wrote, but since you are calling me a liar, take up the challange or apologize.

After all, you said yesterday:
M-G, you forgot to address the issue.
Piorun - | 658
13 May 2010 #117
I guess it's all part of the coming of age for Poland. Accepting own mistakes is part of the process. Every country has to go through it, everywhere in the world.

I guess Israel is still in a womb then, refusing to own up to Commie past responsible for millions of deaths as well as the apartheid system they created in Israel on par with the one they complain the most about (Nazi Germany), Palestinian issue; systematic discrimination, oppression, displacement of an entire ethnic group, lasting nearly a century now, their impact on the relations with their neighbors, Arab states etc. The list is long indeed, so far Jews are at the toddler stage, “He made me do it”, “They want to push us to the sea”. Coming of age, indeed.

I always thought that ESP was a pseudo-science but in Israel it’s a well establish fact and remarkably every Jew has that ability no matter where they are. As we say it here in Poland “Strach ma wielkie oczy”. Indeed when you commit such horrid crimes against others just a thought of what might happen to you once the tables are turned is enough to scare the living crap out of you and paranoia sets in.

Another thing I learned once again that apparently it's ok for Poles to critise other countries, but not ok when other ppl critise Poland.

I see that this entire debate has been lost on you, just a waste of time when one refuses to listen. One day you will find yourself in a similar circumstances and b**ch about your predicament once more, but that seems to be the pattern with you, repeated over and over, time and time again like a vicious circle throughout time. You resist the lessons of history at all cost, always the victim never the villain. This eye for an eye mentality of yours and then some even if it’s not the right eye you are poking at, but who cares you’re entitled so what difference does it make who suffers as a result or who you take your frustration out on. This need of yours to satisfy that most primitive of instincts the need for revenge, which never in your case seem to be enough, is it now?
Marek11111 9 | 816
13 May 2010 #118
M-G I was and I am Polish citizen and I was in U.S.Army 1987-1991 and at a time I was not U.S citizen
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363
13 May 2010 #119
Just a question Jola, 1982 the official polish nation was still firmly the enemy. The cold war and all that...

What did the communist polish government say to one of it's citizens flying for the "enemy"?
I have a hard time believing that if I'm honest.

On the other hand I can also hardly believe that such a controlled unit like the military of the US opened it's door for polish, russian, east-german or whatever eastern bloc nationals, their enemies after all.

Tell me more about it please...I've never heard of that...

M-G I was and I am Polish citizen and I was in U.S.Army 1987-1991 and at a time I was not U.S citizen

The same question to you too Marek...
(All rules changed after '89 and the demise of the eastern bloc)

PS: I know that serving in the US-army is a way to earn your US-passport. But that would mean that you were already immigrated into the US with the plan to become an USian.

You weren't in the US army as a polish citzen under the polish communist government as it seemed implied here...
1jola 14 | 1,879
13 May 2010 #120
I don't think M-G reads the Jewish press, but he should:

And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people. His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system. After Stalin no longer viewed him favorably, Yagoda was demoted and executed, and was replaced as chief hangman in 1936 by Yezhov, the "bloodthirsty dwarf."

ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html


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