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Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond


MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #121
Bidupski talks about a poll held among Americans about the popularity of the SU

This addresses the Bidupski book. Read post 107 again to see what I said about the topic. But what I wonder is, would Romanians write a book about the negative portrayal of silly, clumsy and stupid Transsylvanian farmers in all the Dracual movies? Or about how stigmatizing those entire vampire movies (as always set in Central/Eastern Europe) are for those ppl as being stupid and dumb?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Harry
13 May 2010 #122
On the other hand I can also hardly believe that such a controlled unit like the military of the US opened it's door for polish, russian, east-german or whatever eastern bloc nationals, their enemies after all.

It has long been US policy to allow non-citizens to enlist. However, to enlist a non-citizen must have a greencard and be permamently residing in the United States. Also, they can not be officers (commissioned or warrant).

What did the communist polish government say to one of it's citizens flying for the "enemy"?

I would very much imagine that they used words like "traitor" and "just you wait 'til we get our hands on you, boy". And I would very much imagine that their reaction only added to Jola's joy in serving in the USAAF.
1jola 14 | 1,879
13 May 2010 #123
On the other hand I can also hardly believe that such a controlled unit like the military of the US opened it's door for polish, russian, east-german or whatever eastern bloc nationals, their enemies after all.

A valid question. I was not a pilot, but a flight controls technician. There were other Poles, Cubans, etc. The only limitation in my job was that I did not go near nukes, but not many other people did either. The gov does a security clearance on you and your family and since no one in my family was ever in the communist party, the clearance was fovorable. That's in the nutshell.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363
13 May 2010 #124
There were other Poles, Cubans, etc.

Cubans??? From the isolated, boycotted Cuba, the US "arch enemy"???
I now believe in a misunderstanding...Those Cubans were surely immigrants, refugees, right?
The Poles very probably too...

However, to enlist a non-citizen must have a greencard and be permamently residing in the United States.

*nods*
Now that I already know of and that sounds reasonable. As serving in the US army is a good way to earn the US-citizenship.
But it was somehow implied here that it was possible to serve while still being a REAL polish citizen...;)
1jola 14 | 1,879
13 May 2010 #125
What did the communist polish government say to one of it's citizens flying for the "enemy"?
I have a hard time believing that if I'm honest.

I missed that you asked about the Polish government. They had no juristiction in the US. :)
I'm happy to be in the Polish army now.

...Those Cubans were surely immigrants, refugees, right?
The Poles very probably too...

Yes, with legal rights to be in the US, as Harry said.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #127
Not only membership of the communist party. Also if you or any of your relatives has ever been a member of a "leftist" student organisation, heck even discussion groups, hobby clubs and the like. When my bro emigrated to the US, I received a form as well to fill in those kinda things. And I had to give addresses and phone numbers of all schools, universities and so on for the past 20 years before that. And the embassy actually checked some of them, I later heard.

About the Jewish opinion piece: nobody here has ever denied the presence of Jews within the ranks of the CP. Nobody also has ever denied there were bad apples among them, just as everywhere else. There were Poles member of the CP too and Russians in the Russian CP. And they all did bad things and good things.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Harry
13 May 2010 #128
Case cleared at last! *phew*

I'm surprised it took so long for you to understand this! I mean, you are German and the German army has never been hesitant about letting Poles join it!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #129
I'm surprised it took so long for you to understand this

Well, if this would have been said earlier in the discussion it would have been cleared much earlier as well. But as Bratwurst said, it was implied that a Polish citizen, without mentioning of any rights to stay in the US, joined the US Airforce.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,363
13 May 2010 #130
I mean, you are German and the German army has never been hesitant about letting Poles join it!

Well...that is Germany and we love our Poles but the issue here was the US-army! ;)
guzzler 1 | 88
13 May 2010 #131
The movie "Sophie's Choice" is a classical Anti-Polish movie meant to elicit hatred of Polish people by the people watching it. Especially among Jewish viewers.

"Sophie's Choice" was written by William Styron an American protestant the film was not as good as the book but stuck pretty close to it.

Poles had plans to exterminate the Jews before Hitler, some secret document existing to prove this extreme lie. Definitely Oscar material.

In 1937 the Polish government showed interest in the Nazi Madagascar plan but never had any plans to exterminate the Jews. The invasion in 1939 brought the Polish Catholics and the Polish Jews closer then they had ever been.

All countries in the West were antisemitic at that time to some degree other groups were consumed with hate. Like the Blackshirts in Britain who were attacking the Jews in the poor areas were they lived but the Jews fought back and beat them off the streets.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
13 May 2010 #132
All countries in the West were antisemitic at that time

I have to correct you on that, my friend, in that sense that it wasn't as structural, more an orchestrated or arteficial one, trying to follow (in the second half of the 30's that is) the German example. In the first half of the 30's most of those movements everywhere in the world, except the US, were following the Fascist model as in Italy, later on Spain and Portugal and even later still, parts of the Nazism in Germany. In other words, they saw what happened in Germany with the Jews and kinda were like: "if they do that, we have to do that too". And this acting never had a broad following outside of Germany as, especially in the West, anti-semitism wasn't as deeply rooted as it was in other parts of Europe. They could not depend on wide popular support when attacking Jews. Also, the fact that the Jews fought back, not only in Britain, but also in NL, Belgium and a couple of other countries should illustrate that. Another factor that goes to show that these movements weren't based on broad popular support was that all of them were in the decline, be this in number of members, or in votes.

All countries in Europe sought a way to get out of the crisis in the early thirties. First they saw the Italian situation were a strong leader put country before indivual. This idea always appeals in times of crisis, therefore everywhere in Europe similar parties popped up like mushrooms in the early 30's. Later on in the 30's they witnessed the success Hitler had with rebuilding a country that was in tethers back again to a strong and proud nation, so they began to adopt his ideas. Most of those movements however, were very reluctant until the last few years of the 30's to actually start pestering Jews.

One can say that this was stupid and fascistic or Nazi or sth, but don't forget that until 1938 it wasn't clear at all to the outside world that Hitler was preparing for war. Also, until Stalingrad and El Alamein it wasn't clear either that he was going to lose the war; in 1941 his army was the strongest in the world and probably also for the biggest part of 1942 as well. So, when a country got invaded by Hitler cs, firstly those fascist splinter groups were placed in positions where they before the war never could have dreamed off and secondly many ppl decided to join them as, like I said, it wasn't sure at all at the time that Hitler was going to lose the war. And in fact, he was darn close to winning it.

So, I wouldn't per sé say that all Western countries were anti-semitic as it were only certain groups and it wasn't sth that was layered through society as a whole in none of the Western countries. There was no "Jewish Myth" to fuel hatred, hardly any religious ground and the Jews were, except for France perhaps, not a totally isolated group that lived alongside the locals; in most Western civilisations Jews were fully assimilated and just civilians of their country. Civilians that happen to adhere to the Judaic religion.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Of course, once the
guzzler 1 | 88
14 May 2010 #133
So, I wouldn't per sé say that all Western countries were anti-semitic as it were only certain groups and it wasn't sth that was layered through society as a whole in none of the Western countries.

I used the word antisemitic wrongly in the context of the general Irish and British people it was more of a perception of what they thought a Jewish person was. On the same basis as someone might make a remark a Thick Paddy or a Tight Scotsman a generalisation and that was the level of it.

Has any historian ever worked out why the Nazi's moved so early in the war on the final solution. Just to write that sentence sends a shiver through me of course the men who made these decisions did not have to carry to carry out their dirty work. It is a question that has always puzzled me the Germans being such a methodical race and all the Germans I have known have been nice caring intelligent people.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
14 May 2010 #134
Has any historian ever worked out why the Nazi's moved so early in the war on the final solution.

Had to do with the Euthanasia program for the mentally retarded and physically handicapped. This program was performed in Germany itself, but caused such an outrage that Hitler, publicly at least, cancelled the program. It was for the first time and the last time he did so. From then on, everything had to go in deepest secrecy, at least away from the public eye in Germany.

A few points, as I have to go to bed now:

- he was planning it much earlier, but the reactions to the Euthanasia program made him realise that he could not do so in Germany herself

- the idea at first was simply shoot them, but when they tried that, it became too expensive as bullets cost a lot of money apparently

- then he wanted them to work themselves to death, so he tried that too, but this also could take years and then you had the individuals who inevitably would survive

- by the end of 1941 it seemed that not of these solutions worked satisfactory, so the meeting at the Wannsee was called where a more efficient way needed to be developed;

So it was after he already tried a few methods before he came to the endsolution, the one that should get rid of the Jews once and for all in a most efficicient way. Therefore he invited Nazis from all walks of Nazi society to brainstorm and get it done.

I think Martin Gilbert has explored this territory, but I will look into that and else there are unfortunately only Dutch historians who have gone in depth into the topic.

I will expand further tomorrow evening as I have to go to bed now as this topic needs to be explained more in depth, but I really have to go to bed now as I have to get up at 6 tomorrow and it's gonna be a long day, so I better get some rest.

Take care, my friend.

>^..^<

M-G (Good Night)
1jola 14 | 1,879
14 May 2010 #135
I will expand further tomorrow evening as I have to go to bed now as this topic needs to be explained more in depth,

Interesting, because this in particular needs explaining:

- he was planning it much earlier, but the reactions to the Euthanasia program made him realise that he could not do so in Germany herself

The German public outcry was against the euthanizing Germans not Jews.

Why didn't he do it in Poland, France, Holland then? German public opinion again? :) We are talking prior to 1942.

- the idea at first was simply shoot them, but when they tried that, it became too expensive

No, The Jews were forced to work for the Germans till 1942.

- then he wanted them to work themselves to death,

No again, laboring in the ghettos in German factories was not murderous at all.

- by the end of 1941 it seemed that not of these solutions worked satisfactory

You can stop here since you are talking about the first two years of the war.

I think Martin Gilbert has explored this territory, but I will look into that and else there are unfortunately only Dutch historians who have gone in depth into the topic.

All historians dealing with WWII understand there was no plan to exterminate the Jews prior to 1942, but it will be interesting to read what Dutch historians came up with that no one else knows.

I have not read Sir Martin Gilbert's works but he has turned out some of the dumbest Holocaust "historians" on this planet. Here's is one Robin O'Neil on Armia Krajowa and the Jews:

The AK net spread far and wide,... Whether they were really effective against the German invaders, or in the protection of the Jews, as they might like history to think, is another matter. They did not buy any arms from deserting German soldiers until very late in the war. No partisan detachments of any importance were established by it before 1943, and, anyway, not only were Jews not accepted in the AK ranks, but a number of AK detachments were actively engaged in hunting down and murdering them.

If the AK succeeded in removing more than 200 Germans it would be surprising. Some say they killed more Jews than they saved; they were certainly hunted down during the war, and after. Through the whole conduct of hostilities on Polish soil and their relationship with the Jewish agencies, the AK was a reluctant band, who utterly failed the Jews in their greatest hour of need.

jewishgen.org/yizkor/poland/pol001.html

From his wiki entry:

and is a regular lecturer at universities in the United Kingdom, United States, Israel and Eastern Europe.

Now, this clown travels around the Holocaust circuit giving lectures. He should be challenged publicly on those statements, and either sent back to school or sued for defamation. But let's not dwell on him, your statements are more interasting.
guzzler 1 | 88
14 May 2010 #136
The German public outcry was against the euthanizing Germans not Jews.

Why didn't he do it in Poland, France, Holland then? German public opinion again? :) We are talking prior to 1942.

I don't think it would have mattered where the disabled were murdered the outcry would have been from the parents relatives and friends of the victims. The Jews were a different

situation they were removed en block so there was no one left to complain or even bother.

[ the idea at first was simply shoot them, but when they tried that, it became too expensive[/quote]

When they began shooting the Jews they dug massive pits lined the victims up and machine gunned them. The people doing the killing started to suffer from stress related illness's. I have seen documentaries were Himmler attended and he was even discussed it was at that point when they decided to find another method of disposal.

Any normal person who has been in a war and has had to kill people as I have will understand how there would be a massive stress factor killing defenceless people. When we were in action we were firing at targets who had guns in their hands trying to kill us. They cease to become targets and become people after the action when you go out to clear up the area and get the body count.

As regards the AK not helping the ZZ the Jewish underground I don't believe this the AK helped to arm them. After the fall of the Warsaw ghetto the ZZ operated in a much wider sector. I knew a Polish couple who were in the AK most of their work was sabotage not taking the Germans on in battle which would have been suicide. I have also spoken to Polish Jews who were helped to escape by the AK I even worked with one who told me all about it. I am not saying what I'm writing was everyone's experience its the experiences of the people I knew who were there.
Rogalski 5 | 94
14 May 2010 #137
So, by this logic, Polish schoolchildren should learn about all the Catholic mass murders in history ...
1jola 14 | 1,879
14 May 2010 #138
I don't think you understood what the writer said. Read the article again in the context of Jews trying to blame everyone else but not being aware that Jews don't live in glass houses.

Guzzler, let the "antisemitism hunter" respond, I still have some hope for him. We can talk at another time.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
14 May 2010 #139
I don't think you understood what the writer said. Read the article again in the context of Jews trying to blame everyone else but not being aware that Jews don't live in glass houses.

Well, at least Jews admit it when some of them have done wrong. I haven't heard any of you admit a Pole did wrong.

And Jola, just read again, before you try to pyss me off. You missed the pont gloriously again, just try it again. But now more seriously. I did NOT talk about Jewish mentally retarded nor the Jewish handicapped. The Euthanasia program was a main reason why the final solution got delayed.

Just see:

The German public outcry was against the euthanizing Germans not Jews.

Beep! Wrong again. Where do I state it was Jewish handicapped?

No again, laboring in the ghettos in German factories was not murderous at all.

And once again, Jola proves that he doesn't have a clue. Doesn't matter. After all he was AN ASTRONAUT TRAINER and Astronaut trainers are always right, right?

Guzzler, my friend, pls don't take this clown Jola seriously. He is not a historian and he proves time and time again that he does not have a clue. See his answers to my answer to your question. You know, Jola is right and the ENTIRE historian world is wrong. That's the way it is in Jola's world. I hope for him that at least his dog loves him, because nobody else does.

Whatever you say. Indeed, you have not read Martin Gilbert's works and it shows. You have not got a clue, lapdog, pls leave this discussion, your contribution is absolutely zero. Go brag about your time in the USAAF or as a trainer of Astronauts.

Furthermore, Jola has proved that he doesn't see concepts, cannot see wider connections and doesn't understand that some methods of killing for the Nazis were tryouts to see what method would suit best. But Jola knows all about Jewish communists, let's ask him. Jola, tell us about Jewish communists, your specialty. And leave this to ppl who DO know about the subject which unfortunately does not include you.

>^..^<

M-G (Jola is just an amateur. No problem as such, but still, just an amateur)

And as a ps: Jola, if you're such a defender of Poland's pride: where were you in Poland's darkest hour? Answer: you were in the US, safe and far away from all the shyte that hit the fan :) You admitted that yourself. Ghee, must make you feel like a real hero to come back when it's safe enough. Or would it be that you're so full of shame of that cowardice act that you're now doing your utmost to prove to the world that you're defending Poland, no matter if you're wrong? I do pity you a bit, must be hell to know that despite all those brave word, deep down inside you're a little coward that ran away with his family when things got a bit bad.

Puts your arguments of those poor ppl in Poland who had no choice of leaving in a very bad light, doesn't it?

>^..^<

M-G (grin)
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
15 May 2010 #140
it was implied that a Polish citizen, without mentioning of any rights to stay in the US, joined the US Airforce.

Actually foreign nationals living legally in the U.S. on non-immigrant visa but temporary worker visa (H1-B visa) are recruited by US armed forces as of Feb 2009 with a promise of granting all those who are willing to fight for Uncle Sam US citizenship in as little as six months.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
15 May 2010 #141
Yeah, but Poland was part of the enemy in the time we are talking about. That caused the confusion.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
15 May 2010 #142
Like they will discriminate now based on nationality? If they need native Arabic speaker they will take him no matter what country he's from. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
15 May 2010 #143
Saudi Arabia is considered a friendly nation, and they speak Arabic there too.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
15 May 2010 #144
But you still seek someone who can speak local dialect of the enemy that you fight, someone who has good understanding of local culture etc. Anything that will give you an edge. It’s been done since ancient times. Do you honestly think they did not recruit the so called defectors back then? Enemy or not, even if he was Soviet citizen, you simply expedite the process of his citizenship, have him as an adviser whatever and keep a close eye on him in case he might be a double agent. You still take a risk.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 May 2010 #145
I hope Polish Jews take heed of what he is saying. ... he knows what he is talking about.

These people are more Semitic than Zionists. I support these Rabbis and their cause. Therefore, am I not more Semitic than Zionistic Jews?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
31 May 2010 #146
Righteous Among Nations, a brief rundown:

1. Poland 6.195 members
2. the Netherlands 4.947 members
3. France 2.991 members
4. Ukraine 2.246 members
5. Belgium 1.476 members.

What do these numbers say? That Poland and the Netherlands delivered the most ppl that helped Jews throughout the war, hence should be regarded as most Jew-friendly nations during WW2. Any member of a Polish household holding a Jewish refugee was shot. Every Dutch household who held a Jewish refugee was either sent to a KZ and mostly killed there or shot, usually after a very short "trial". There are also 3 Irish who are member, 2 Brazilians and 1 Portugese. I know that many ppl on here brag about the fact that Poland has delivered most members, and it's true, but te difference with the Netherlands is not that big (not as big as the difference between Netherlands and France, for example) and given the fact that Poland and France had much bigger populations, I would say that PL deserves the status of most Jewish-friendly nation in absolute terms, while NL deserves that term in relative terms.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
MediaWatch 10 | 945
31 May 2010 #147
I never heard any Poles "bragg" about Poland having more people that risked life and death to save Jews. Poles usually bring up what Poles did for Jews after being accused of being "anti-semtic" etc.

There was a world of difference between the Netherlands and Poland in WWII. Its was a lot more dangerous for Poles to save Jews in Poland then for Dutch people in the Netherlands to save Jews. The Dutch were at least Germanic so the Nazi Germans were more reluctant to find fault with them even if the Dutch resisted them somewhat. The Poles being Slavic and already hated for just that by the Nazis, were really hated when the Nazis found out that they were saving Jews.

According to Eli Rosenbaum of the Office of Special Investigations, the Nazis were shocked when they saw how many Poles were saving Jews (the Nazis thought the Poles were stupid for doing this) so THEN the Nazis mandated the policy of killing not only the Pole who tried to save a Jewish person, but ALSO his WHOLE FAMILY IN FRONT OF HIM before killing him.

Rosenbaum said, "honestly I don't know if I could have done the same if I was in the shoes of these Poles now that I have kids and a family". Rosenbaum said this about 14 years ago.
A J 4 | 1,088
31 May 2010 #148
Does it even matter? It seems a bit disrespectful towards all the victims to make this a dick-measuring contest about who was the most righteous nation or not. People were scared. Would you want to risk your family for someone else? Would your wife agree? Would your children understand? It's easier said than done you know.. To all those people who saved people from the Nazis: You're all brave people.

:)
MediaWatch 10 | 945
31 May 2010 #149
AJ

You are 100% right in what you say.

Its always a lot easier said then done in risking your life (and your family's) in saving other people's lives. All people who saved people from the Nazis deserve tremendous credit. Including those we haven't heard of.
A J 4 | 1,088
31 May 2010 #150
For some reason there's a delay in the replies for me sometimes, so I didn't see yours at the time I posted. I totally agree with your posting, and that's exactly what happened to people who would help Jews, homosexuals, intellectuals, soldiers, Roma, or people of the resistance. Brave people indeed. I feel sorry for those children who died because of their decisions aswell. They could've lived a full life if people hadn't been such a dumb flock of sheep to actually vote for people who promoted racial hatred. Now that we've all learned about everything that happened in the past, everyone should know by now what will come of such politics, so it really makes my blood boil to see what some misguided individuals post here sometimes. Especially with all the knowledge we have today about the family tree of humanity and our DNA. Unbelievable.

:S


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