The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 296

Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond


MareGaea 29 | 2,752
31 May 2010 #151
There was a world of difference between the Netherlands and Poland in WWII.

There you go, this is plain out bragging. And the line "resisted them somewhat" fits in that bragging perfectly. I'd suggest you read up on the "velvet glove - iron fist" approach; Nazi reluctantcy was gone after 29th of June 1940. It was for all ppl of all occupied territories equally dangerous to help Jews or to put up resistance. Dutch who kept Jews and were discovered were shot or otherwise killed as well; it only took a little longer. Since you can only be killed once, I would say it wasn't more dangerous for Poles to help Jews than it was for the Dutch or French or anybody else.

And it's like AJ says: it's not a dick measuring contest, but I think ppl here should acknowledge the efforts of all those brave ppl who risked their life against tremendous odds, not only in PL, but in all of occupied Europe; the risk was equally big for everybody, whether you were from Poland or from the Netherlands or somewhere else.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
1jola 14 | 1,879
31 May 2010 #152
How many Dutch people were killed for aiding Jews, M-G?

And the line "resisted them somewhat"

I think he meant the ones who didn't join the Waffen SS did resist in spirit mostly. This is how Jews view Dutch resistance today. Perhaps that is unfair, since the whole country tried to save poor Anne Frank.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
31 May 2010 #153
How many Dutch people were killed for aiding Jews, M-G?

Too much.

I think he meant the ones who didn't join the Waffen SS did resist in spirit mostly.

1. Poland 6.195 members
2. the Netherlands 4.947 members

What exactly don't you understand about relative and absolute figures? PL had about 3 times a big population than NL had at the time. Yet they have only 1200 ppl more in Yad Vashem. I do respect the brave Poles who fought and died for their country, but not cowards like yourself who left the country when it was in need and came back when it's safe only to have the biggest mouth about Polish bravery. Better a living coward than a dead hero, huh?

Now off to bed again, you spoke two times, way too tiring for your 4 braincells. You need them to walk and shyte later on today, so they need some recovering.

>^..^<

M-G (maybe it's time that jolalala leaves this forum)
1jola 14 | 1,879
31 May 2010 #154
1jola:
How many Dutch people were killed for aiding Jews, M-G?

Too much.

For someone claiming to be an historian that is a strange figure.

What exactly don't you understand about relative and absolute figures?

Is "too much" a relative or an absolute figure, pumpkin?

Got you floudering first thing in the morning, I'm cruel that way, sweetie.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
31 May 2010 #155
Got you floudering first thing in the morning, I'm cruel that way, sweetie.

No, you're not cruel, you're just ignorant, little coward.

>^..^<

M-G (now pls leave this forum, back to your stormfront buddies)
1jola 14 | 1,879
31 May 2010 #156
I didn't think you could back up your fantasies with facts.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
31 May 2010 #157
Part of the outcry was against the way the removed and murdered under a veil of secrecy ("We're taking them to a special hospital where they can get special treatment") and also a worry that war-wounded service personell would be disposed of in a similar way after 'serving the fatherland'.

Jewish-German disabled were murdered in the euthanasia programme (apparently with 'preferential' status).

It is interesting that in museums like Auschwitz it is stressed that the Jews were lied to and led to believe they were going to a new home. I always find it strange that in some people's eyes the Jews were the only people to believe this and really all the Poles and germans knew better (were they informed before hand that this was a big ploy?). The euthanasia project demonstrated how easy it was to remove a large section of the public under false pretences and fool a large section of the general public. I'd suggest that that technique, as well as the experiments in mass killing (lethal injection, starvation, gas chambers... pioneered in the T4 project) was simply used again with reference to the jewish population.

Like the Blackshirts in Britain who were attacking the Jews in the poor areas were they lived but the Jews fought back and beat them off the streets.

The question is how many of the Jewish fighters were actually communists (as well)?

There were Jewish members of the British fascist movement and Mosley himself wrote that he had no problem with Jews as long as they were pro-British. Bizarre, huh?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
31 May 2010 #158
There were Jewish members of the British fascist movement and Mosley himself wrote that he had no problem with Jews as long as they were pro-British. Bizarre, huh?

Not so very bizarre when you know that most of those fascist groups before WW2 were based more on Italy's example than on Germany's example. And the Italian fascist groups were, at least in those days not in favour of deporting and eliminating the Jews. Later on they adopted this, but imo that was more due to the "success" of the German Nazi party. It's important to keep in mind that fascist groups in other countries than Germany were originally based on the Italian/Spanish/Portugese model.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Mr Grunwald 22 | 1,641
1 Jun 2010 #159
were originally based on the Italian/Spanish/Portugese model.

Which used Hungary? (just curious)

There you go, this is plain out bragging. And the line "resisted them somewhat" fits in that bragging perfectly.

I would say adding a perfect statement about the topic?

Remember M-G that there are many unknown heroes from Poland ww2, many lie dead under that times Warsaw ruins. Those who tried to help Jews and got killed themselves with the Jews they were saving aren't numbered up right? How many dead Poles was there that tried to help Jews but failed and died by doing it? While nobody had any record of it and family members maybe thought he/she died because of underground movement fights (during Warsaw uprising)

You gotta admit that in reality I think it is a lot more Poles who helped Jews then somebody knows, just that nobody saw them or heard them? I guess there were some in Netherlands too but, not at the same scale?

Out of pure logic the Nazi German must have captured a lot of "savers" since they changed their directives when it came to punishment of those who helped Jews right?

(anyhow how many Jews Dutch ppl saved, it won't change the immage I have of the Dutch I mean come on allow drugs? what have they been smoking? :))
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
1 Jun 2010 #160
Which used Hungary?

Also the Italian model. The Spanish and Portugese model were based on the Italian, which was already in place in 1922, long before the others and served as an example. Hungarian fascists didn't prosecute Jews until the Nazis occupied the country in 1944.

I don't deny that there were Polish heroes. I never have denied that. But don't forget that Dutch ppl also risked their lives while helping the Jews. It wasn't a Polish exclusive that ppl who harboured and helped the Jews got killed. And there are ALSO unknown Dutch heroes as well. That's what I meant with the absolute and relative figures. The Polish population was much bigger than the Dutch population yet the Dutch number in the Yad Vashem is a mere 1200 less than the Polish number. Plus Poland is and was a lot bigger than NL. So in absolute figures, yes, Poland was the most heroic country, yes, but in relative terms the Dutch were just as big, if not bigger. Poland had about 3.5 million Jews within her borders, 6000-something got rewarded in Yad Vashem for helping the Jews in PL. NL had about 140.000 Jews, 4000-something got rewarded in Yad Vashem for helping the Jews. That's relatively to the number of Jews a bigger number. I am not talking about the total number of deaths, but the number related to the number of Jews.

I guess there were some in Netherlands too but, not at the same scale?

The total number of Dutch death was about 300.000, of which 104.000 Jews and 21000 Militairy deaths. That leaves grossly 175.000 civilian deaths and most of them were related to the helping of Jews. I would not call that "some". Poland had a population of grossly 4 times that from NL at the time. Not all of the Polish deaths were related to the helping of Jews.

Fact remains that Poland is number 1 on the Yad Vashem list and the Netherlands is number 2 with the difference between the number 1 and 2 much smaller than the difference between number 2 and the number 3, France, also a country much bigger in size and population than NL. I think this says sth about the helping of Jews in NL. Don't diminish that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
1 Jun 2010 #161
It was for all ppl of all occupied territories equally dangerous to help Jews or to put up resistance.

Whilst it was dangerous, it was not equally dangerous, because only Poland had the penalty of summary execution for giving aid to Jews. I suggest you read Gunnar Paulson who compares and contrasts Poland and Holland.

Now off to bed again, you spoke two times, way too tiring for your 4 braincells. You need them to walk and shyte later on today, so they need some recovering.

Is there any need for this type of insulting language.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
1 Jun 2010 #162
It's important to keep in mind that fascist groups in other countries than Germany were originally based on the Italian/Spanish/Portugese model.

Interesting. Thanks.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
1 Jun 2010 #163
The total number of Dutch death was about 300.000, of which 104.000 Jews and 21000 Militairy deaths.

I think you are too modest. Holland did take first place in a few areas related to Jews during WW2:

- the highest number of Jews killed in an western European country during WW2
- the highest number per capita of volunteers fighting with the Nazis (I wonder if they killed Jews too)
- the most efficient system of rounding up Jews and transporting them to Konzlagers. Eichmann certainly appreciated the efficiency.
vetala - | 382
1 Jun 2010 #164
What are you people even arguing over? Didn't you read Secret City by Gunnar Paulsson? He says that the rate of survival of Jews going into hiding in Poland and Netherlands was exactly the same. He's a lecturer at the Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies so he can be trusted in that aspect.
1jola 14 | 1,879
1 Jun 2010 #165
I've read the book and I have it at home. Should the Dutch "historian" read this book, since he hangs around Polish History section of this forum at times and has a lot to say but has not read any books on the subject or any other Polish subject, he would have to reevaluate his position. Actually, Ozi, Vatela, and I, who have actually some knowledge on the subject, should put this clown to the test.

- the highest number per capita of volunteers fighting with the Nazis (I wonder if they killed Jews too)

No, Dutch Waffen SS saved Jews. It is amazing that a Dutch Jew like M-G can actually defend the people who murdered his relatives. What gives?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
1 Jun 2010 #166
I, who have actually some knowledge on the subject, should put this clown to the test.

Opi rides again. Now off to bed, fake Pole.

- the most efficient system of rounding up Jews and transporting them to Konzlagers. Eichmann certainly appreciated the efficiency.

Still only 1200 less than Poland in the Righteous among Nations list.

Yeah, Jola can only talk about how good Poland was and how bad the rest. He is of no worth to this forum.

What are you people even arguing over? Didn't you read Secret City by Gunnar Paulsson? He says that the rate of survival of Jews going into hiding in Poland and Netherlands was exactly the same.

I know that he writes that. I just wanted to point out that, although NL was infested with Nazis, according to some amateur historians like 1jola, they still have an awful high number of entries in Yad Vashem, the second highest in the world. But losers like 1jola cannot see things in perspective. That has been his biggest handicap so far.

>^..^<

M-G (who takes Jola serious nowadays?)
Ironside 49 | 10,375
1 Jun 2010 #167
Still only 1200 less than Poland in the Righteous among Nations list.

Does it prove anything ?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
1 Jun 2010 #168
2 things:

1. That beside the myth that NL was infested with SS-men, an awful lot of ppl helped the Jews as well, also with risk of their own lives, and the balance is therefore the same in other countries.

2. That some ppl here react exactly as expected when confronted that other countries did heroic things as well.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Ironside 49 | 10,375
1 Jun 2010 #169
myth

awful lot of ppl

those are words of artisan no historian, your feeling on the subject has nothing to do with the facts.
and the facts say that in Poland every person of the family which happened to give an aid to Jews were shot on the spot, no matter what kind of aid would be loaf or hiding place .....

In case of NL some people were killed but few for sole reason of giving an aid to Jews nor their families were summarily executed,

ome ppl here react exactly as expected when confronted that other countries did heroic things as well.

>^..^<

I have no problem with heroic deeds of others but with your constant refusal to comprehend that German occupation in Poland were definitely harsher and cruel than in ti

he west.
I-S( Your stubborn ignorance of the facts could be called moronic,Me dijo)
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
1 Jun 2010 #170
those are words of artisan no historian, your feeling on the subject has nothing to do with the facts.

Let's not start about choices of words. I just use these words. That's all. If I were to clove out on your words, then I would get the impression you're either super angry or crying behing your keyboard. So, let's not start about choices of words.

In case of NL some people were killed but few for sole reason of giving an aid to Jews nor their families were summarily executed,

I would say 175.000 ppl is a bit more than just "some".

I have no problem with heroic deeds of others but with your constant refusal to comprehend that German occupation in Poland were definitely harsher and cruel than in ti
he west.

Apparently you do, otherwise you wouldn't react like that. I never denied anything you say here. It's just in the eye of the beholder, you know. If a healthy critisism is explained as denying that Poland suffered, you really need to rethink your strategy, my friend.

I-S( Your stubborn ignorance of the facts could be called moronic,Me dijo)

If I'm such a moron, why then do you try to imitate me so often?

Again, nobody denies here that Poland suffered during WW2. Nobody. However, a healthy debate is not one of agreeing constantly with the whining about this. A healthy debate consists also of different opinions and critisism at times. But I know Poles have to get used to that. I the West we are used to critisism as part of a good debate. We don't feel attacked, like many Poles on here do, when critisised for failing to see the bad sides of one's own country. And every country had. NL has, PL, has, BE, DE and so on. But unlike the "debaters" on this forum, everybody accepts that. Why can't you? All occupied countries suffered. Some more than others, but bottomline is that everybody suffered. Learn to accept that.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)

Oh btw, Ironside: if it's just facts, and nothing but cold facts, why then are you and a couple of others so emotional about it? I'm just presenting other facts. Facts that you may not like, but nevertheless facts. Not all facts glorify Poland, you know :)

>^..^<

M-G (bigger and meaner than ever)
Ironside 49 | 10,375
2 Jun 2010 #171
Why can't you? All occupied countries suffered. Some more than others, but bottomline is that everybody suffered. Learn to accept that.

contrary to your words I know that everybody suffered but it doesn't mean that everybody suffered the same .....
It shouldn't matter who suffered and to what degree but it does ......first of all Jews telling their stories, then other by making insolent and baseless allegation about conduct of Poles during the WWII

It does matter and you know it or you should know it ....and I'm not talking about feelings but about fact, you can check the way German treated Poles and Dutch, there are records ...and then but only then you can make comparisons,

When you have knowledge.
by the way your last words tell me that you are not M-G (bigger and meaner than ever) but that you lack discipline of mind.

Listen, certain things happened in certain way and there are documents ....you cannot discus facts, and the fact is that legislature of German occupants made the law for Poles and made the law for Dutch.

And the law for Poles were much harder than the law for Dutch.
I want you to accept this fact, that all!Take your time and check it
What this mean or faults of Poles or Poland we can discuss later!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
2 Jun 2010 #172
When you have knowledge.

I just finished shaving and am just about to turn in, when I saw this. You're getting a bit emotional again. Knowledge, I have knowledge. The knowledge of a little over 6000 Poles and nearly 5000 Dutch in the Yad Vashem. And that's a fact too. I know how the Germans treated PL, I know how they treated NL. But we are a much smaller country with a much smaller population. Yet we have nearly as much ppl in Yad Vashem as PL has. Those are all facts, my boy. I am not at all emotional about it.

I have recommended the book many times before, but it's a standard classic: Ashes in the wind by Jacques Presser. Read it and you will read all about the good sides of NL and also about the bad sides. Unlike some here, we don't deny our bad sides and that's a major difference. And you will see that it really didn't make any difference if you were excecuted in the city's prison (and this was really not summary, as you put it) and your family being shipped to a KZ to be gassed or worked to death or in any other way killed for helping Jews than when you and your family were killed on the spot for doing the same. Only difference is that they did it more covert in NL and other W-European countries, out of fear for the public outcry, but this doesn't make it less deadly. And by the way, these are all facts which you can find in Ashes in the wind, the standard work on the destruction of the Dutch Jewry in the Netherlands. Every History student in NL has to read this and so had I. And you are right, there are records about the German occupation of NL and PL and those of NL will tell you exactly what I just told you.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
MediaWatch 10 | 945
2 Jun 2010 #173
What are you talking about when you talk about this "bragging stuff"?

As for threats against Poles for saving Jews, even Jews like Eli Rosenbaum of the OSI said that in Poland there were more threats against Poles for saving Jews then any other country. That doesn't mean that people in other countries didn't have hardships in saving Jews, but Poland was the only country where there was a mandate to not only kill the Pole helping a Jew but ALSO his family in front of them. I have never heard that being done in other Nazi occupied countries. But if you have a link on it, feel free to provide it.

And it's like AJ says: it's not a dick measuring contest, but I think ppl here should acknowledge the efforts of all those brave ppl who risked their life against tremendous odds, not only in PL, but in all of occupied Europe; the risk was equally big for everybody, whether you were from Poland or from the Netherlands or somewhere else.

You lose much credibility when you just casually say that the risk for saving Jews was equally big for everybody of all Nazi occupied countries. That's patently false. People who saved Jews in countries outside of Poland didn't have their families killed in front of them as additional punishment to the death sentence they got after just seeing their families killed by the Nazis.

And you're right it should not be a "dick measuring contest" as to who saved more Jews then someone else, but you're the one focusing on the subject and providing your data COMPARING countries as to the degree people saved Jews. So in essence, with all due respect, you're the one measuring people's d.....s in reference to people saving Jews.
Ironside 49 | 10,375
2 Jun 2010 #174
over 6000 Poles and nearly 5000 Dutch in the Yad Vashem.

I say again - so what?
Its like with medals for soldiers, not everyone who did something "heroic" got a medal.
There are always circumstances like the fact that Dutch after war hadn't been encumbered by such a detail (seems like you do not understand implication of it ) - as Poland under soviet rule.

I know how the Germans treated PL,

that what I question, you don't know!

I have recommended the book many times before, but it's a standard classic: Ashes in the wind by Jacques Presser. Read it

OK I will!

we don't deny our bad sides and that's a major difference.

what you are about? Who deny bad sides? well, maybe same are not aware about Polish bad sides during the WWII but only because there were minor in no way comparable to really heroic deeds.

I mean Poles didn't have SS-division or government collaborating with Germans, action of individuals it minor and unimportant detail and you trying to make it big, I suppose for philosophical reason.
Stu 12 | 522
2 Jun 2010 #175
"Depending on a definition of collaboration (and of a Polish citizen, based on ethnicity and minority status), scholars estimate number of "Polish collaborators" at around several thousand in a population of about 35 million (that number is supported by the Israeli War Crimes Commission).[46] The estimate is based primarily on the number of death sentences for treason by the Special Courts of the Polish Underground State. Some estimates are higher, counting in all members of the German minority in Poland and any former Polish citizens declaring their German ethnicity (Volksdeutsche), as well as conscripted members of the Blue Police, low-ranking Polish bureaucrats employed in German occupational administration, and even workers in forced labor camps (ex. Zivilarbeiter and Baudienst)."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II

Ironside: just like you are trying to show that there are "relatively" few collaborators in Poland (in absolute terms one could argue that "several thousand" is quite a lot), M-G is trying to show that in relative terms there were quite a lot of Dutch people who got themselves on the Yad Vashem-list.

Why is it that difficult to accept?

And okay, PL-resistance fighters were shot in the streets, Dutch resistance fighters were shot in jails, the woods or send to labour camps or KZ-lager. In all cases we have the same result, haven't we: they died.

And allow me to disagree with you about a collaborating government as well: there was no Dutch government which collaborated with the Nazis. Like the Polish government in exile, they fled to London.
Ironside 49 | 10,375
2 Jun 2010 #176
Dutch resistance fighters were shot in jails

Where Germans is Holland killing civilians because of some plan and I mean killing everybody in village.
Point is that in Holland Germans were killing resistance people or individuals somehow connected to them ......hence in Poland civilians could be killed and were murdered by droves just because.

German attitude and practise as well as their legislation were entirely different in Poland than Holland, you guys have a big time problem to grasp it!

M-G is trying to show that in relative terms there were quite a lot of Dutch people who got themselves on the Yad Vashem-list.

If I was like you guys I would have said that it was because Dutch citizens reported others Dutch citizens en mass unlike Poland!
Stu 12 | 522
2 Jun 2010 #177
If I was like you guys I would have said that it was because Dutch citizens reported others Dutch citizens en mass unlike Poland!

So what was the task of the Blue Police? Are you absolutely sure that PL-people at that time didn't rat on their Jewish neighbours, maybe because they were scared to death that the Nazis would kill THEIR family? Can you give me a link? I wouldn't be so sure, you know.

All in all, I feel this is just about semantics.

The wife whose husband (resistance fighter) was shot in the street or the wife whose husband was shot in a jail: in these cases, there is no such thing as "I suffered more than you".

Sorry ... now I have to continue working again.
1jola 14 | 1,879
2 Jun 2010 #178
So what was the task of the Blue Police?

They had little to do with Jews, however, the Jewish Ghetto Police were as criminal as the Nazis, often more brutal.

Are you absolutely sure that PL-people at that time didn't rat on their Jewish neighbours, maybe because they were scared to death that the Nazis would kill THEIR family? Can you give me a link?

Mainly the criminal element who by denouncing Jews also passed a death sentence on the Poles who were hiding them. You obviously are not familiar with wartime situation in Poland, so you wouldn't know that the biggest threat to hiding Jews were other Jews.

Here is a thread on AHF about that: forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=144090
Mr Grunwald 22 | 1,641
3 Jun 2010 #179
Yet we have nearly as much ppl in Yad Vashem as PL has.

My question earlier was about how many Poles do you think there are that weren't written down cause of time of war. Not everyone had a little piece of paper with him that was written "executed because he/she tried to save a Jew"

My point is, yes there were many Dutch people trying to save Jews, but those who re regarded as saviors of Jews in Poland aren't that much in Yad Vashem because there were fronts going through that place 3 times and not everybody had a piece of paper that said they helped a Jew, and everybody knows that dead can't speak among the livings.

Its like with medals for soldiers, not everyone who did something "heroic" got a medal.

that was my point thank you

what you are about? Who deny bad sides? well, maybe same are not aware about Polish bad sides during the WWII but only because there were minor in no way comparable to really heroic deeds.
I mean Poles didn't have SS-division or government collaborating with Germans, action of individuals it minor and unimportant detail and you trying to make it big, I suppose for philosophical reason.

That is actually a good point

So what was the task of the Blue Police? Are you absolutely sure that PL-people at that time didn't rat on their Jewish neighbours, maybe because they were scared to death that the Nazis would kill THEIR family?

Also some wouldn't have the courage of walking outside among Poles after reporting Jews to the Nazis? You know the Polish underground wasn't "inactive"
Harry
3 Jun 2010 #180
I mean Poles didn't have SS-division or government collaborating with Germans, action of individuals it minor and unimportant detail

You seem to forget that at least 100,000 Poles joined the German armed forces. Just as you forget that the reason there was no Polish government collaborating with the Nazis is that the Nazis had no interest in there being any Polish government.


Home / History / Poles and (Polish) Jews... Victims of war... and beyond
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.