Terrible past for the Jews in Poland?

Harry

6 Mar 2012 #61

there are cases documenting Jews killing Poles like a Bielski brothers killing inhabitants of Polish village.

Please stop with the lies: IPN researchers have said that the Bielskis were in no way involved in the Naliborki massacre.

After ww2 90% of Polish communist ware Jews

And of course you have numerous reliable sources to support that claim.

ladykangaroo - | 165

6 Mar 2012 #62

Poles being so negative towards the Jews

Put "some" and I can agree. That sort of quantification seems to be replaced by "all" in this topic which is simply not true.

True, there are some people who are antisemite, proclaim this loud and there are also other people who faciliate media access for this first group. Almost every place has its bunch of morons who use "Jew" as an insult and are sure there is a Jewish group at the centre of every conspiracy theory (from the fall of ancient Egypt to 9/11).

But there are also people who laugh out loud at these theories, people whose grandparents were the recipients of Yad Vashem medals and had trees planted in their honour in Jerusalem (and the group of Polish trees is the biggest one in the alley). People who do not care if the person they elect as their political representative is Jewish, Evangelical, black or gay. To them saying that "Poles are so negative towards the Jews" is simply an insult.

obviously I must have been raised in a Jewish friendly home, because I have never heard anything negative about Jews

And your family is really not that unique in this approach.

BBman - | 343

6 Mar 2012 #63

Anti semitism has been a problem all across europe, not just Poland. However you have to keep in mind that Jews were welcomed to Poland several hundred years ago when western Europeans were engaged in pogroms. There was little anti semitism.

Anti semitism became a more serious concern after the partitions of Poland. And also keep in mind how polish jews were not always the innocent angels. They did collaborate with the Soviets which resulted in terrible consequences for the Poles, many could not forget this and as a result jedwabne took place.

It takes 2 to tango.

Harry

6 Mar 2012 #64

Jews were welcomed to Poland several hundred years ago when western Europeans were engaged in pogroms.

Welcomed just as long as they didn't want to live in Warsaw, given that for the majority of the time that the city has been the capital of independent Poland, Jews have been banned from living here.

delphiandomine 86 | 17823

6 Mar 2012 #65

However you have to keep in mind that Jews were welcomed to Poland several hundred years ago when western Europeans were engaged in pogroms.

Doesn't excuse the Polish behaviour towards them.

And also keep in mind how polish jews were not always the innocent angels. They did collaborate with the Soviets which resulted in terrible consequences for the Poles, many could not forget this and as a result jedwabne took place.

That's a rather simplistic, and inaccurate statement.

If anything, the Poles were manipulated into believing that Jews had collaborated.

p3undone 7 | 1098

6 Mar 2012 #66

the Jews have constantly been persecuted since the early times.This is fact.During the black plague they were often killed as if they were the impetus for it .they cry victimization for a well recorded reason.It continues to this day.There may have been some Jews that have given some

legitimacy to this treat;But to say that as a race this is by ,to me and large to me is foolish.

BBman - | 343

6 Mar 2012 #67

if anything, the Poles were manipulated into believing that Jews had collaborated.

You are the one who is manipulated.

ShortHairThug - | 1101

6 Mar 2012 #68

Jews were better businessmen and often still are. I can say it because I have worked with both and Jews are probably twice as hardworking as Poles.

LOL. Sure there are successful Jewish businessmen on an individual level just like with everyone else but overall? Take CCCP for example overwhelmingly in Jewish hands, everything nationalize yet in a span of 70 years they have manage to make a largest state on earth with unimaginable natural resources go bankrupt while firmly at the helm, the satellite states? Well we all know, don’t we?

Israel does not fair better in that respect, with all the aid over the years from US alone, billions of dollars on an annual basis with population of roughly eight million that would make every man woman and chilled instant millionaire many times over with enough money left over to successfully run the state. It should truly be a land of milk and honey and if all of them were able to multiply their wealth? One can only imagine a Utopian state the likes of which the world has never seen before, yet what do we have? Your paranoia simply won’t let you.

Don’t forget business and political zeal is not the same, success of an individual is not the same as that of a nation or tribe you belong to, where is that business sense that is inherited by ever single Jew you speak of, the hard work and know how? And that is the FACT. I sure as hell don’t see it.

Believe me, no one is even remotely Jealous of what’s going on there. Instead all I see is plenty of Jews coming here and introducing topics related to the Jewish issues, with such a small minority of you in Poland you’re way over represented on this forum but that seem to be a reoccurring theme. Surely you don’t envy us? Do you?

delphiandomine 86 | 17823

6 Mar 2012 #69

You are the one who is manipulated.

Common answer by those who know the truth.

By "the truth", I mean "what they read on dodgy internet websites".

Take CCCP for example overwhelmingly in Jewish hands

Strange, they used to go around shouting about how athiest they are. Perhaps you'd like to explain to us how this works?

Instead all I see is plenty of Jews coming here and introducing topics related to the Jewish issues, with such a small minority of you in Poland you’re way over represented on this forum but that seem to be a reoccurring theme. Surely you don’t envy us? Do you?

There are Jews on this forum?

Ironside 50 | 12354

6 Mar 2012 #70

Do you agre ?

Who are you ? You are coming here out of the blue and boom thread about terrible past and Poles hating Jews - it is fishy and stupid.

OP wolf 1 | 4

6 Mar 2012 #71

There is more today of that about killing Jews polish citizens !
so i think is time that a true story of german occupation be told .

Edit.
This is a forum in English, please provide a link in English or a translation of the Polish version .

Ironside 50 | 12354

6 Mar 2012 #72

Welcomed just as long as they didn't want to live in Warsaw, given that for the majority of the time that the city has been the capital of independent Poland, Jews have been banned from living here.

And very good, your mantra and obsessions are boring, you are a big Harrie-bore!

Harry

6 Mar 2012 #73

a translation of the Polish version.

Would one via google translate be acceptable? And if it would, does the 100 word rule still apply?

As long as everybody will be able to understand. You can provide your summary.

And very good, your mantra and obsessions are boring, you are a big Harrie-bore!

Could you please discuss the posts rather than the posters. Thank you.

OP wolf 1 | 4

6 Mar 2012 #74

re ironside

It simple happend in my town to !
I was told about this by my family member .His grandma helped the Jews and was afraid of the neighbors.

Ironside 50 | 12354

6 Mar 2012 #75

There is more today of that about killing Jews polish citizens !
so i think is time that a true story of german occupation be told .

Aha ! got you !
We can now put your OP where it belongs into the lies section of the forum. You are here to post biased version of your story. Why anybody should believe you now ? Wouldn't that be S-F story?

pawian 221 | 25174

6 Mar 2012 #76

I have never heard good words toward Jews by Poles unless very very rarely.

Why are you lying?

Very very rarely means about 1 - 5%.

The 2010 poll suggest that favourable opinions about Jews are almost equal to negative ones - about 30%.

Poland Jews opinion

In recent years, our feelings towards the Jews gradually warm up . Sympathy for them starts to dominate the reluctance
Poles who admit to Jewish , is with us a tiny fraction of society , no more than a thousand of . In the minds of his fellow citizens , however, take up much space. The Jews , of whom the Poles think , to a large extent those who lived in Poland once - after the war , before the war , and even before. The whole Jewish nation , the Jews " symbolically " collective existence and construction of the collective imagination . For a prejudiced mind, these distinctions do not matter - for him the people of a nation are always and everywhere the same.

Do you want to imply that you haven`t run into those 30% yet?

I don`t believe it that is why I feel the right to call you a liar.

Who are you ? You are coming here out of the blue and boom thread about terrible past and Poles hating Jews - it is fishy and stupid.

Coming here out of the blue and starting a controversial thread isn`t a crime here. Yet, it is a crime of trolling to lie about such a serious matter. Hence, my comment: a typical troll. Wolf, I am not afraid to discuss any topic possible, no matter how controversial and painful. However, I hate liars. Can you take it into consideration?

Ironside 50 | 12354

6 Mar 2012 #77

It simple happend in my town to !
I was told about this by my family member .His grandma helped the Jews and was afraid of the neighbors.

What happened and what town that would be ?
Yeah she was afraid of her neighbors big deal, everybody needs good neighbors.

Harry

6 Mar 2012 #78

There is more today of that about killing Jews polish citizens !
so i think is time that a true story of german occupation be told .

I assume that you were talking about this news:

IPN investigation division in Bialystok, opened an investigation concerning the murder of twenty women of Jewish origin in Bzurach k Szczuczyn (Podlasie) in 1941. He wants to eg determine the perpetrators, who after the war were not prosecuted for this crime.

The crime took place in August 1941. A group of young women aged 15-30 years, was taken from the ghetto in Szczuczyn for field and horticultural estate in Bzurach. The ghetto never came back. Were killed by a group of men. Attorney Investigators IPN Radoslaw Ignatieff PAP said Tuesday that the investigation was initiated two weeks ago, at the moment began searching archives. "Look at what used to be, after the war, against some perpetrators were officially made toward determining those persons who possibly had not yet been prosecuted for this crime," - said the prosecutor.

Ignatieff said that after the war about some of the offenders were held in any judicial and 'judgments. In the 60 the last century dealt with the issue or the District Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against the Polish Nation. Now, the investigation division of the IPN wants ultimately to determine whether any perpetrators were not brought to justice, also look for witnesses living in Bzurach to determine the actual circumstances of the murder. One of the purposes of investigation is to establish a personal profile of the victims. Attorney Ignatieff added that in this case is suspected of committing crimes of genocide, that does not expire. "Yes, common sense, even in those days none of the locals would dare some woman somewhere to take and kill, if they were + their +" - said the prosecutor. A Case wrote on Tuesday, "Gazeta Wyborcza", which quotes Barbara Engelking Research Center Holocaust Institute of Philosophy and Sociology. It took note of the acts of judicial affairs in 1948, for crimes in Bzurach. Engelking tells the newspaper that the file is mentioned at least six men who killed the woman. Only one of them stood in the court. He was sentenced to prison. He died in 1957. of archival materials show that the women were taken to the woods with two carts. This has already been kicked down. The women were beaten with sticks (batons), whose ends were ferruled metal. Before the killing, made in the forest, some of them were raped.

Apologies for the google translate!

PlasticPole 7 | 2641

6 Mar 2012 #79

So far no peacemaking...

Foreigner4 12 | 1768

6 Mar 2012 #80

I do hope that you are not trying to claim that there are two sides to the story of the holocaust and that in one version the death camps were entirely appropriate.

Absolutely not. I wrote no such thing, not in the least.
Look at things objectively though: the bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki are given consideration as possible ultimately "humane" decisions; Napolean, Julius, Hannibal, Alexander etc are celebrated but also deplored death they engineered both on the battlefield and in various cultures; Romans were known for their brutality yet are still in historians' good graces (Hollywood seems to have fallen in love with the Romans of late); Greek exploits and Persian advances are treated with measure as to the various causes and motivations; even the European genocide of North and South American native tribes, while acknowledged is often done so with a "whoops, they just didn't realize their blankets would infect a continent with small pox (a slow and torterous way to go mind you)." And Africa? Well yeah that place has had a rough millenia but it's still acceptable to rationalize the rape and pillage that has been going on there.

Every society and leader gets examined from all sides, except for when there's interaction with the Jewish narrative. I find that quite remarkable.

gumishu 15 | 6175

6 Mar 2012 #81

Apologies for the google translate!

google translate makes this quote of your pointless

I was told about this by my family member .His grandma helped the Jews and was afraid of the neighbors.

had anybody outside of the family found out about this grandma concealing Jews? if so then you have your answer - not all Poles were hostile to Jews or greedy enough to mug them - the thing is even if those hostile to Jews or greedy enough to harrass those Jews in hiding were a significant minority they still were to be feared by those who helped Jews - pretty obvious, no?? - so what grand conclusions do you want to draw out of this simple statement about that grandma

xzqbq7 2 | 100

6 Mar 2012 #82

Its common sense for the group of people feeling persecuted in a nation to move to another nation

Suppose you are talking about a country that had a history of having problems with staying indendent (like in last 300 years was
indendependent maybe 30-40 years nonconsecutive ?) Suppose this country had powerful neighbors that always think about partitioning
this country. Suppose further that your minority had roots in this area.

Wouldn't you think that this minority would like to be present when the next partitionig of this country takes place?

And keep a lot of noise about their grievances so that a restitution is made to them? Maybe even a small area just for them?

Makes sense? I don't know, you tell me.

Wroclaw Boy

7 Mar 2012 #83

The question that intrigues me is what kind of place would Poland be today if Hitler hadn't wiped out all the Jews?

Varsovian 91 | 634

7 Mar 2012 #84

My family's history of dealings with Jews:

Solec - little town on the Vistula. Pre-war, grandad + ggd had a cobblers business which was put out of business by a cabal of Jewish rivals which successfully managed to pressurize local leather sellers NOT to sell to him. When the bad times came, one of his erstwhile rivals offered him money to take in his daughter as his own, for safekeeping. He agreed, but the girl's mother changed her mind. The girl was brought round later when the Germans were rounding up Jews, but ggd was too scared to take her in at that stage, regardless of the money.

A little town, that shall remain nameless, near Radom. "Wujek M. ", who was active in Bataliony, hid Jews in his potato bunker, not telling anyone about it until the 1990s. Two of them became central to his later life, since they acted as his "protectors" during Stalinism. They were both in the security apparatus, one being Bierut's ADC. M's son went on to have a career in the military and through working his contacts got his sons good jobs, one in a big state concern.

My wife's headmaster was Jewish, hidden by Catholics during the war (as was his wife to be). An excellent teacher and organiser, he enjoyed high standing in Zwolen, a little town in the back of beyond which had once had a large Jewish community.

Harry

7 Mar 2012 #85

Zwolen, a little town in the back of beyond which had once had a large Jewish community.

I've been there, Hasidic community if memory serves me correctly.

If Zwolen is what you consider to be the back of beyond, I'd hate to hear you describe Wlodawa!

OP wolf 1 | 4

11 Mar 2012 #86

Check this , there is people who still don@t belive or don't to belive
niniwa2.cba.pl/zaglada_domu_trinczerow.htm

niniwa2.cba.pl/index-zydzi.htm

the link should be in english and/or have a translation in english

jasondmzk

11 Mar 2012 #87

Check this , there is people who still don@t belive or don't to belive

"The Destruction of Trinczerów's Home". It's the story of how Jews suffered in a rural Polish community. A quoted line: The reality can not be argued. You can either live a lie, or accept the truth and face it. The history of the fate of Jewish citizens who died in the midst of his own, we need to know how it ended.

EM_Wave 9 | 310

11 Mar 2012 #88

OP, I share your experiences. When I was in Poland, I haven't heard nice things said about Jews either.

MediaWatch 10 | 942

11 Mar 2012 #89

"The Destruction of Trinczerów's Home". It's the story of how Jews suffered in a rural Polish community. A quoted line: The reality can not be argued. You can either live a lie, or accept the truth and face it. The history of the fate of Jewish citizens who died in the midst of his own, we need to know how it ended

LOL

All I ever hear on this forum are Jews and people with anti-Polish biases giving selective accounts (if not exaggerated) of alleged anti-Jewish acts by Poles. They more or less insinuate "Polish anti-semitism" with there remarks about Poles or SELECTIVE accounts of Polish history.

They also ignore anti-Polish behavior of some Jews in Poland, but we will put that aside for now.

In light of this, I would like to ask a question. Let's for arguments sake take the anti-Polish narrative that Poles were mostly anti-semitic towards Jews for most of Poland's history.

In light of that, can somebody please tell me why Jews (who many think are intelligent and resourceful people) did NOT CHOOSE to LEAVE Poland if all these alleged horrible anti-semitic things were happening to Jews in Poland?

Its not like Poles were putting a gun to the head of the Jews and forcing them to STAY in Poland.

If Poles were this anti-semtic to Jews???? WHY IN GODS NAMES did Jews continue to CHOOSE to live in Poland and Jews outside of Poland also continue to CHOOSE to live in Poland for 1000 years???? WHY WHY WHY?

Are Jews insane or stupid?

Are Jews masochists?

Do Jews like countries that are anti-semitic?

This makes absolutely no sense!

OP, I share your experiences. When I was in Poland, I haven't heard nice things said about Jews either.
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Really? That's your interpretation. Because Poles you met don't put Jews on a pedestal which is what you wanted?

Its funny how Jews who love to criticize Poles as being "anti-semitic" come to Poland and find Poles as being "anti-semitic", but Jews who don't love to criticize Poles as being anti-semitic, come to Poland and leave Poland without criticisms of Poles as being "anti-semitic". Gee I wonder why? LOL

Polonius3 980 | 12275

11 Mar 2012 #90

Before rehashing yet another very déjà vu disucssion about alleged Polish anti-Semitism, first check out how Jews feel and think about Poles and other Gentiles. The Talmud is a good place to start!