Had the Jews been allowed to "integrate" into European society during the Middle Ages, e.g. join the guilds, the army, learn a gentile trade etc... they wouldn't have been forced to do the dirty work, forbidden to Christians, such as money lending or tax collecting etc..
If things had been different in this regard, we wouldn't be talking about the Jews' "innate business sense" or other assorted idiocies!!
In order to survive, the Jews HAD TO often charge usurous interest rates, and focus on the workings of finance:-)
Well, money is indeed the root fo all evil but it does provide power and influence. In Poland, Jews were also the innkeepers and often ran inns owned by the Church, Of course, we can speculate as to what migth have been. Not only regarding Jews. If Britain had despatched its navy into the North Sea and Baltic and France had attacked Germany's western flank in Sept 1939....
Do you think all Jews in the Middle Ages wished to integrate. They lived in shtetls by choice and had their own separate judiciary -- one the privileges granted them by Poland's kings. They had their synagogues, ritual bath-houses, cemeteries, shops. Were there that many (or any) secular non-observant Jews back then? I really don't know but I doubt it.
By choice? Of course not, Polonius! D'you really think an entire group of people, for that matter, anybody aka normal person, desires the hatred and emnity of the world foisted upon them???
The deal was this. The Catholic Church spurned the Jews, spuriously blaming them (rather than the Romans) for the death of Christ, ergo, the Church, and NOT the Poles, French, Germans etc. per se were the initiators of Christian anti-semitism! Catholic dogma essentially created a Frankenstein's monster, whereby Jews were forced into uncomfortable roles, performing the thankless tasks conveniently off limits to Christians. If the Jews then became known as bait -'n-switchers, cheats and other unscrupulous types, then once again, the Catholic Church was Dr. Frankenstein, the Jews, his feindish creation. was in large part to blame:-)
Now, we know not ALL Jews were usurous b-stards anymore than ALL Arabs are Jihadist extremists, hellbent on destruction etc... All it takes is the mere perception of such to quickly become other people's reality and that's the beginning of the end.
Aren't you forgetting the "chosen nation" aspect? Or the Talmud saying God created Goyim to serve the Jew like beasts of burden. The Goyim were pagans, unclean, ate pork and weren't circumcised and Jews had no deisre to hobnob or interact with such Untermenschen. The Shabasengoy was OK in his place -- he was paid a few coins to come in and light the lamps and candles in Jewish homes on Sabbath.
We mustn't be ahistorical and try to impose modern Western concepts of equality and irreligion on bygone eras which functionedaccording to their own values, often quite unlike our own.
Oy vey ! Poor Jews and evil Catholic Church.... yawn...
Jews in the Middle Ages (and much longer actually) didn't want to integrate similarly as Muslims in Europe today. Not wanting to integrate/assimilate is pretty much embedded into Jewism. Otherwise Jews would have melted into general population centuries ago.
That is precisely why the reletively small (15 mln-strong) Jewish community has such great economic and political clout. Had they dissolved into the mainstream they would not have gained their present level of prominence, power and influence. Religion ("the chosen people") has played a big role in it all. Even today's secularised and non-observant Jews are heirs to that tradition and usually display considerable intra-community soldiairty.
Jews most certainly did wish to assimilate. They did however usually resist conversion to Christianity, being such a small community as it is, true enough:-) A large number of others became Christian, practiced their own faith in secret. The Jews en masse though were so demonized by the Church, it was next to impossible for a Jew to claim "equality status" with their gentile neighbor since the former were typically shunned by the Catholic majority, only compounding an already difficult situation. As a result, Jews became nearly all but marginalized from the broader society. Who wouldn't want to join in and become accepted; it's only human.
German Jews especially strove to become "more German than the Germans", mastering their language, serving with distinction and giving their lives in WWI. It didn't do too much good, howeverLOL
@Polonius, the "Chosen People" status is a misunderstanding of the term, much as "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles.." doesn't mean what far too many ignoramuses think it does)))
There were atrocities in Poland perpetrated by Poles against the Jews. However the fact remains that the largest contingent of nationals in the Righteous Among Nations are the Poles. There are many heroic stories of how the Poles helped hide Jews.
Indeed, kręcik! Unfortunately, this justifiably proud aspect of Poland's recent past has been overshadowed by Jedwabne, Kielce and sundry other atrocities, even AFTER WWII, not to mention folks like Comrade Mietku (Moczar), not exactly people to be proud of:-)
How do you know that? The fact is hat if they had fully assimilated, intermarried and abandoned their faith and cultural heritage and lost their uniqueness, they would not have achieved the position they now enjoy.
Becuase he's a pro-Jewish anti-Polsih chauvinist. For some reason Judaeo-Polish issues incline many of those discussing them to take sides. Why? Is it to curry favour with inlfuential Jewry for possible future benefits? In a balanced disucssion that shouldn't be the case. It takes two to tango and tangle. Both nations have sinned against the other over the centuries. Highlighting one side's transgressions and the other's victim status is a bald-faced lie!
people to be proud of
What about Berman, Romkowski, Fejgin, Brystygier, Mietkowski, Wolińska, Hibner, Minc, Szejnfeld, Spychalski, Lewin, Komar, Toruńczyk, Lampartt, Szechter (Michnik's dad) and many, many more?
While "atrocities" were clearly committed on both sides, Berman, Romkowski et al probably pale in comparison with those on the other side, e.g. the Nazis and their gentile Polish accomplices etc. The Jews were mere political footballs, tossed from pillar to post ever since their arrival in the West; welcomed in with open arms when needed, tortured and massacred when they weren't.
Anti-Polish??? It's because I'm fond of Polish culture that I'm adult enough to see the positive alongside the negative:-)
@Ironside, if you're proud of a Jew-hating, xenophobe like Moczar, then that says more about you then about myself! Let's stop rationalizing, shall we. Moczar was not a positive force anymore than Hitler was. Plenty justify Hitler and the Holocaust by saying, "Well, the country was in chaos! They needed a strong leader, plus, the Jews were going to take over...."
I'm surprised a that a seemingly educated person like yourself has such a simplistic approach to a highly complciated, multi-facteed issue. No-one is proud of Moczar. He was a clever and ambitious opportunist who knew how to use the Jews' success to stir up envy and resentment against them. That argument was easy to use and provide evidence to back it up towards a group that held a disproportionate number of key posts. Jews accounted for 1% of the Polish popualtion but held 50% of the leaership posts in the security organs. In post-war Poland Jewish over-representation was also the case in the military, diffent ministries and govt offices including the powerful censorship office, not to mention the health service, academia, literature, culture, etc.
During the nearly two years that Podlasie (including the Jedwabne region) was under Soviet rule (1939-1941) red Jews terrorized the Polish populace, fingered Polish officials, officers and other patriotic Poles to the NKVD, helped the Soviets deport local Poels and confiscate their homes and held many key posts in the Soviet-imposed administration. Is it any wonder that some Jedwabners whose families had been sent into exile, jailed or otherwise oppressed felt no love lost when the tables were turned and the Germans occupied the area.
Not without signifncace is the fact that Stalin, who hated Jews with a passion, promoted their over-representation in conquered countries as part of his successful policy of antagonising various ethnic groups.
@Ironside, if you're proud of a Jew-hating, xenophobe like Moczar
I have asked you a question and your answer revealed depth of your ignorance. Would you kindly tell me what do you think that Moczar was a Jew-hating xenophobe, in your opinion?
Moczar was not a positive force anymore than Hitler was
Ironside, quit trolling for just once in your (cyber-)life and try reasoning, instead of rationalizing! You appear to espouse anti-semitic tendencies. This is pitiful, not humorous:-)
@Polonius,
How "complex" need a problem be or become before one of us simply breaks down and calls a spade a spade?? While Gomułka was hardly perfect, Moczar was at best a slimy opportunist, making him no less admirable than if he honestly believed the xenophobic poison he was spewing!
Lyzko for once in your life you could attempt to have a constructive debate, for that to happen we need (or I) establish what exactly are you saying (assuming you are not a biased troll) to establish a basic level on which we can build a platform of understanding and debate. If you came over here and post some assumption of yours we don't have that comfort.
Hence I can't reason with your assumptions based on ignorance. Would you kindly respond to my questions and do answer them or would you rather snipe here and there with nuggets of your doubtful wisdom.
Give you an example as a token of my good will. Moczar real name Mikołaj Diomko was Russian or Ukrainian at best (who knows) whose (if we talk ethnicity) mother was Polish. He was a member of a communist party before the war i.e. illegal organization, an organization that was organizing clandestine oppressions against the Polish state on behave and in the interest of the Soviet Union i.e. he was a traitor.
During the war he was leading some communist and soviet bands activity fighting against Polish underground - that makes him a double traitor. After the war he was a part of the soviet establishment in occupied Poland and their action do not really concern as action of traitors and collaborators.
He had given call a xenophobe or nationalist because he was a leader of a fraction inside soviet collaborators in occupied Poland. Fraction of ethically non-Jewish traitors and scum with different backgrounds aimed to dispose ethnically Jewish scum in totalitarian apparatus of the occupied Poland. He might used some slogans but he was neither nationalist or xenophobe as he himself wasn't really Polish.
I couldn't care for neither of that fractions nor would any Pole, implying that Poles in any way should apologise for him and the likes of him is simply insulting on so many levels I would even bother to explain it.
Anti-Semitic word is humours in itself as modern Jews on genetic level have noting to do with the Semites of old.
Taking your relatively coherent arguments one at a time, Ironside, I'd like to say that "anti-semitism" has to be sure been used far too often as a sort of catch basin for all criticism leveled against Jews, both justified and unjustified. For instance, a rational voice questioning Israel's left-bank policies should clearly NOT be construed as "anti-semitic" merely because it raises concerns about the given agenda. Criticism can and indeed should be constructive rather than destructive, granted. However, far too often, non-Jews take the opportunity of rushing to judgement, criticizing Jews for allegedly being too sensitive towards outsiders' criticisms.
There has been good reason for this perceived tendency among Jews to "hit the panic button" of antisemitism every time they feel impugned. For certain, paraphrasing somewhat as Kafka once observed, "the Jew in the 20th century isn't merely being paranoid, he in fact IS being persecuted!"
Furthermore, some stories in life ARE honestly sad stories which compel empathy. I detect a note of deeply ingrained cynicism, not only from yourself, but from far too many, both on PF and elsewhere.
Polish-American Historian Takes Issue With Goldhagen
A US historian has come out with a book contesting Daniel Jonah Goldhagen's assertion that gentile Poles were largely complicit in the mass murder of Poland's Jews!
Be interested in hearing the Forum's views on this matter.
I am sure Jews were discriminated against for no reason. Shame... I am also sure that Jews were hiring Poles as eagerly as Jews and didn't object to mixed marriages. They also didn't mind if one of them switched to Christianity to keep his Polish Catholic wife happy.
Try many sides. Name one country where Jews lived and were not the objects of hate? Even murderers are asked why they killed their victims. Not required but helpful.
I would like to interview the pogromers just the same.
Home / History / Terrible past for the Jews in Poland?
