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Terrible past for the Jews in Poland?


goofy_the_dog
11 Mar 2015 #301
thought it was common sense you did say you were Polish didnt you? what kind of a Pole doesnt know how to speak the lingo?
Harry
11 Mar 2015 #302
what kind of a Pole doesnt know how to speak the lingo?

Historically a fairly large chunk of Poles spoke a mother tongue other than Polish. Even the rigged 1931 Polish census showed that. Millions of Poles before WWII didn't speak Polish fluently, or even at all.

Anyway, I'm still very much looking forward to you giving us some links to support your claim about:

the Polish Jews opted to form a Jewish state on the Polish lands during the 1918 Versailles treaty.

Are you backing away from that claim?
Crow 148 | 9,320
11 Mar 2015 #303
i suggests Slavic-Jewish discussion over the round table, with TV cameras present. Discussion that would include scientists, historians, priests,... Our civilizations should reconcile. We should both apologize to each others, if that proves to be expected from the other side. In that sense, i make public what i expect. i expect Jewish apology for the crimes of their ancestors to my ancestors. So, apology from Jews to all the Slavs. For me, its religious question (i want to share satisfaction and joy for the received apology with my ancestors, at the SLAVA day). We should then continue business in mutual respect, on behalf of Jewish and Slavic civilization.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
11 Mar 2015 #304
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history#Poland-Lithuania

Overrepresentation of Jews in post-war Poland's terror appartaus is clearly indicated by the following chart:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Public_Security_(Poland)

From Dossier of MBP directors in 1944-1954.[3]
Background Number Percent
Polish 221 49.1%
Jewish 167 37.1%
Soviet 46 10.2%
Ukrainian 5 1.1%
Belorussian 4 0.9%
Russian 1 0.2%
Other 4 0.9%
Unlisted 2 0.5%
Total (RBP / MBP) 450 100%
K. Szwagrzyk, Aparat Bezpieczenstwa w Polsce, IPN, 2008, p. 59

Since Jews at that time accounted for no more than about 1% of Polish society, that means they were 37 times overrepresented in the communist terror apparatus.

Can we blame them? Of course not. War and its aftermath brutalizes everyone and makes survival the supreme goal. A disproportionate number of Jews survived in those circumstance by siding with and serving the Soviet-imposed regime. During the Nazi occupation period Polish szmalcownicy sought to help their families to survive the shortages and poverty by taking over Jewish property.

When the Soviets invaded eastern Poland in 1939, many Jews joined self-styled Workers Militias, fired on regular Polish troops and fingered Polish officials to the NKVD. When Germany pushed the Soviets out, local Polish thugs engaged in pogroms like Jedwabne and got even. And so it goes.....
TheOther 5 | 3,711
12 Mar 2015 #305
Since Jews at that time accounted for no more than about 1% of Polish society, that means they were 37 times overrepresented in the communist terror apparatus.

What I don't understand is why you differentiate between Jews and Poles. They were all Poles - just with a different faith. The MBP numbers above are to be taken with a grain of salt then.
goofy_the_dog
12 Mar 2015 #306
well if that's the case then all who claim that there was any anti-Semitism in pre war Poland are wrong, these were just fights and squabbles between Poles right?
TheOther 5 | 3,711
12 Mar 2015 #307
if thats the case then all who claim that tehre was any anti-semitism in pre war Poland are wrong

Why would that be? Jews in Germany were also Germans, and you know what happened. Shiites and Sunnis are both Iraqis, but they are still at each other's throat.
Harry
12 Mar 2015 #308
i expect Jewish apology for the crimes of their ancestors to my ancestors. So, apology from Jews to all the Slavs. For me, its religious question (i want to share satisfaction and joy for the received apology with my ancestors, at the SLAVA day).

You expect an apology? Interesting. That must mean that you expect you need to give apologies for the misdeeds of your people. Well, clearly events which happened more recently have more effect on the present than events which happened more than a millennium ago, and therefore those events should be apologised for first. So before any apology is made to you on behalf of Slavs by a representative of Jews, you would need to apologise to the representative of Jews for the murders of millions of Jews carried out by Slav collaborators during the Holocaust. It is a matter of historical fact that the Nazis usually employed Slavs (mainly referred to by the Germans as 'Ukrainians' regardless of where they were actually from) as trigger-men during the mass shootings and as guards for the death camps. You need to apologise for that. And after that apology, you, as a Slav, also need to apologise for the murders of countless numbers of Jews in the countless pogroms by Slavs across the centuries since the end of the European slave trade. But of course before that, you as a Slav need to apologise for the state-sponsored anti-semitism in the USSR and Poland in 1967 and 1968. And after that, you, as a Slav, can apologise to a representative of Jews for the murders of thousands of Jews by Slavs after the end of fighting in WWII, events such as the Kielce pogrom and the Krakow pogrom.

And why should we limit the apologies to Slavs and Jews only? We should bring in representatives of all the peoples of Europe. So, you, as a representative of Serbs, will need to apologise for the ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide carried out by Serbs in Kosovo. And you you, as a representative of Serbs, will need to apologise for the ethnic cleansing and genocide carried out by Serbs in Bosnia. you, as a representative of Serbs, will need to apologise for the ethnic cleansing carried out by Serbs in Croatia. And so on.

I fear that by the time it is finally the turn of the apology you feel you are owed from a representative of Jews for the participation of Jews in the European slave trade, many of the participants in the meeting will have died of old age, meaning that you, as a representative of Slavs, would need to apologise for taking so long with your apologies that representative of Jews and other people you feel are owed apologies have died of old age before you, as a representative of Slavs and Serbs, apologised for the misdeeds of Slavs and Serbs. But then you'd need to repeat all of your other apologies again so that the new representative of Jews and other people you feel are owed apologies hear those apologies, and by the time it is finally the turn of the apology you feel you are owed from a representative of Jews for the participation of Jews in the European slave trade, those new representative of Jews and other people you feel are owed apologies would also have died of old age. And so on, and so on, and ....
Vox - | 175
12 Mar 2015 #309
Why would that be?

Would it be possible for you to share with us unworthy mob your thoughts on a subject? Instead of you uttering enigmatic syllables, half words and truckload of patronising attitude.
Harry
12 Mar 2015 #310
these were just fights and squabbles between Poles right?

They were indeed fights and squabbles (plus the occasional spot of mass murder and ethnic cleansing) between Poles; however, and this is the important bit which might be a bit hard for you to get your head round, the reason for those fights and squabbles (plus the occasional spot of mass murder and ethnic cleansing) were that some of those Poles were Jewish, and that is what makes the attacks anti-semitic.
Vox - | 175
12 Mar 2015 #311
Let see if I understood correctly your floatation. I would need a hypothetical scenario to illustrate your way of thinking. Two people are squabbling, one pulls a knife, in ensuing struggle one stabs the other. What do we have here a brawl or an anti-Semitic attack?
Harry
12 Mar 2015 #312
Did the person with a knife stab/attack the other person because the other person was a Jew? If so, it was an anti-Semitic attack. Is that really so hard to work out?
TheOther 5 | 3,711
12 Mar 2015 #313
Would it be possible for you to share with us unworthy mob your thoughts on a subject?

If you are incapable to understand two simple sentences, then what's the use to explain in detail?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Mar 2015 #314
Probably all the Jews who served mankind's No. 1 butcher Stalin were atheists and not followers of the Judaeic faith. One can change one's religion or refute religon entirely, de-Jewify one's name and switch one's political allegiance, but one cannot change one's DNA. The communist terror apparatus was not overrepresented by members of a certain religious denomination but by a specific ethnic group.
jon357 67 | 16,921
12 Mar 2015 #315
but one cannot change one's DNA

So are you suggesting that DNA determines character?

Probably all the Jews who served mankind's No. 1 butcher Stalin were atheists

So were all the others.
Harry
12 Mar 2015 #316
one cannot change one's DNA.

I do find it rather hard to understand how one's DNA makes one more or less likely to have collaborated with the communist regime in Poland, but then I never collaborated with the communist regime in Poland, so I can't say for sure either way.

One can't help feeling that a person who tried to claim 'I'm only collaborationist scum because of my DNA' would get a very short shrift in Poland.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
12 Mar 2015 #317
The communist terror apparatus was not overrepresented by members of a certain religious denomination but by a specific ethnic group.

Does that change the fact that members of this ethnic group were also Poles (as in Polish citizens)?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Mar 2015 #318
Some had Polish citizenship, other were Soviet POPs (pełniący obowiązki Polaka).
jon357 67 | 16,921
12 Mar 2015 #319
Some had Polish citizenship

So they were Poles .

And the deeds of a foreign regime in one brief period of time in no sense dtracts fro earlier sufferimg by any particular group. Basically a red herring.
Vox - | 175
12 Mar 2015 #320
If you are incapable to understand two simple sentences, then what's the use to explain in detail?

I have asked you kindly to show us less attitude and more debating skills, Unless those thoughtless clichés are what pass for your thought process and it is all that you are capable to utter.

Did the person with a knife stab/attack the other person because the other person was a Jew?

Would than be your first step in the investigation you would have carried out in the hypothetical crime? Talking about bias, thank you sir.

"Does that change the fact that members of this ethnic group were also Poles (as in Polish citizens)?"
I understand now. According to you if they are perpetrators of a crime or an atrocity they are Poles but if the same people (according to your definition Poles) are in turn killed by a Pole without (dipole) Jewish background or DNA they would have transformed over night into Jews and automatically into victims of anti-Semitic crime..

I have no more questions Your Honour.
jon357 67 | 16,921
12 Mar 2015 #321
Your Honour.

Nice of you to show the proper respect however that isn't much of a question at all, since victims as well as perpetrators can be Poles of whatever heritage.In the post-war years both the groups you mention fell into both the categories you mention...
Vox - | 175
12 Mar 2015 #322
"Nice of you to show the proper respect"
Your welcome Guv.

" however that isn't much of a question at all, since victims as well as perpetrators can be Poles of whatever heritage.In the post-war years both the groups you mention fell into both the categories you mention..."

Not according to the Patroniser above.
jon357 67 | 16,921
12 Mar 2015 #323
Your welcome Guv.

A pleasure.

Not according to the Patroniser above.

I don't see that there at all. Poles ofJewish and Gentile heritage were on both sides of that issue, Jewish Poles and Gentile Poles were on both sides of that issue.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Mar 2015 #324
Citizenship can be a purely bureaucratic category. The Poles unfortunate enough to have lived in the eastern half of Poland annexed by Putin, er, um, I mean Stalin in collusion with Hitler, and who survived the ethnic purges of the late 1930s and the post-1941 genocide* and exile were able to write Polish in their Soviet passports, but if they knew what was good for them they wrote Ukrainian or Belarusian.

And the POPs sent by as occupation forces spoke little if any Polish but were given Polish citizenship and wore Polish uniforms. Did that make them Polish?
jon357 67 | 16,921
12 Mar 2015 #325
Did that make them Polish?

Thy were Russian. So going off topic.

Pol3, what are your views on the Poznan Pogrom?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Mar 2015 #326
Not necessarily Russian. They were all Soviet citizens but that included Jews, Georgians, Kalmuks, Latvians, Kazahkis, Armenians and any other nation the tzars and Stalin managed to subjugate.

As for Poznań, I'm not much into local football. That's all I got when I Googled what you wrote: Poznan pogrom. Try it, you'll see.
jon357 67 | 16,921
12 Mar 2015 #327
So anyone really, including people of Polish background who "Stalin managed to subjugate".

For the Poznan Pogrom, you must be using a very unusual search engine. Perhaps one from Moscow centre. Why not try it again with the year 1367 added.

Even try: 1367 Poznan ,1399 Poznan ,1407 Krakow, 1423 Krakow, 1434 Poznan, 1445 Kazimierz- Krakow, 1498 Warsaw...
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Mar 2015 #328
Have you tried poznan pogrom? Google is the same in Warsaw or Hamtramck. So which pogrom are you interested in?
Harry
12 Mar 2015 #329
So as to avoid a warning for going off topic, can a moderator please confirm that Crow's post on the previous page is on topic enough to be replied to. Thank you in advance.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
12 Mar 2015 #330
If things were so bad over the centuries, why didn't they go to Germany, only a few km to the west, or Muscovy or Hungary or Bohemia or Sweden?


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