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Terrible past for the Jews in Poland?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
11 Mar 2015 #271
Considering your riposte, the question was apparently somewhat ambiguous. Have any Jewish scholars, leaders or others ever regretted that the Jewish people in the middle ages and later did not choose some other, more Judaeophilic country for mass settlement? If so, which country would that be and why didn't they go there?

The Statute of Kalisz was not always enforced? Know of any statute, law, constitution, treaty, accord or other man-made agreement that was ever enforced 100%?
jon357 67 | 16,921
11 Mar 2015 #272
Know of any statute, law, constitution, treaty, accord or other man-made agreement that was ever enforced 100%?

That would depend how egregiously it was broken.

Considering your riposte, the question was apparently somewhat ambiguous. Have any Jewish scholars, leaders or others ever regretted that the Jewish people in the middle ages and later did not choose some other, more Judaeophilic country for mass settlement? If so, which country would that be and why didn't they go there?

A non-question.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
11 Mar 2015 #273
You stated: "Those statutes were very enlightened for their times. Just a shame they weren't always enforced."
Well tell us then how often the Statutes of Kalisz were broken.
While you're at it, also tell us how much better a large Jewish minority fared in some other country or countries.
jon357 67 | 16,921
11 Mar 2015 #274
Were there any comparably sized minorities of comparable population density in the region and were the pogroms elsewhere (for example the Poznan Pogrom) any less vicious?
Harry
11 Mar 2015 #275
The cost of renovating this important building is peanuts - and it is very much part of Polish cultural heritage.

Yes, but all the money has been given to the Temple of Divine Lemon Squeezing (because the RCC is so hard up for cash).

It's an established fact that Old Poland was one of the least intolerant countries back in those highly intolerant times

Does that explain why for 90% of the time that Warsaw was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland Jews were forbidden from living there?

Those statutes were very enlightened for their times.

One does have to wonder why it was felt necessary to laws to be written confirming that there was a punishment for striking a Jew, that Jews were able to freely and securely walk or ride and that Jews were allowed to buy things.

One also has to wonder why the wikipedia article Polonius doesn't acknowledge quoting and the wikipedia article itself fail to mention point 26 of the statutes: the abduction of a Jewish child will be considered to be theft. In what kind of country did it need to be written that stealing Jewish children was not OK?!
Vox - | 175
11 Mar 2015 #276
There is little point in either beating yourself up about the deeds of others or trying to erase chapters of history in order to control a national narrative. The idea of historic national guilt is as unhealthy as the idea that any one group have exclusive rights over a territory

You are being a little ambiguous in your answer. Obviously one can talk about past in term of historical facts rather than guilt and pride but at the same time there is a little room for feelings. A person as the cliché goes is not a lone island. People are part of a community whether they like it or not and as such are subject to the same elements, trials and experiences as a group they belong to. National or ethnical identity thrive and feeds on such a connection and by the same token such a sense of connection might be extended to past generations. Just because there is room for corruption of those emotional attachments it doesn't mean there is a need to condemn them as whole.

the idea that any one group have exclusive rights over a territory

Do you claim exclusive rights over your house or a land? Do you feel particularly attached to the idea your money are your money?

It depends on whether one wants to claim the glory stemming from the achievements of one's forefathers or not.

It goes without saying. However the beauty lies in the eye of the beholder and the same can be said about one's intent. I think it is easy to mistake a reasonable pride one takes over forefathers real achievements with immature boastfulness and a claim to the share of the glory of the people long death.

fellow Poles murdered countless thousands of Jews during countless pogroms over the centuries'.

Why would differentiate between what had happened to them over what had happened to all other people dwelling on a territory who had been murdered robbed or in any way abused by the criminal element of the country over the centuries?
jon357 67 | 16,921
11 Mar 2015 #277
You are being a little ambiguous in your answer.

Rightly so in a matter of so many ambiguities.

Do you claim exclusive rights over your house or a land? Do you feel particularly attached to the idea your money are your money?

Do you claim exclusive rights to restrict the nationality of anyone else who owns property in your street or feel,attached to the idea that certain people rather than others can spend or use the same currency?

Does that explain why for 90% of the time that Warsaw was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland Jews were forbidden from living there? .....
the abduction of a Jewish child will be considered to be theft. In what kind of country did it need to be written that stealing Jewish children was not OK?!

Indeed. And the statutes (like so much else in those parts and in those times were honoured more in the breach than the observance. Unless the Poznan Pogrom was just an illusion.
Vox - | 175
11 Mar 2015 #278
In what kind of country did it need to be written that stealing Jewish children was not OK?!

Maybe in a Jewish children free country? Maybe in a country which expelled Jews?

Do you claim exclusive rights to restrict the nationality of anyone else who owns property in your street or feel,attached to the idea that certain people rather than others can spend or use the same currency?

Ownership of a property doesn't give you right to build an exclusive ethnical enclave and claim sovereignty over its territory.
jon357 67 | 16,921
11 Mar 2015 #279
Fortunately, Poland throughout its history has not been an "exclusive ethnical (sic) enclave" - it has always had a multicultural tradition, nor has sovereignty been vested in one ethnolinguistic group of Poles to the exclusion of another. Though there are unfortunately those who would prefer that not to be.
goofy_the_dog
11 Mar 2015 #280
The past of jews was so terrible in Poland because of the German invasion, so many of them died in Poland because we had the biggest amount of Jews living in Europe, roughly 3 million Poles were also Jews. Poland never expelled the Jewry from the nation, unlike the Uk for an example calling them hooked nosed demons etc.

in 1920s we have seen rise of different nationalisms in the II Repuublic, be it Polish with the rise of ONR, Ukrainians with Bandera or the Jewish zionism which sought a creation of a Jewish state on the territory of Poland.

I dont really know about any bans on Jews in Warsaw, I'd really like a link for that.. however I know for sure that the Jews are passing racist laws in the land of Isarel now discriminating Arabs etc...

As a country of Poland, I belive that our land should be protected against western interests, rich people and big bussiness, its our land and we should never sell it any Germans e.g privatisation of the forests which nearly went through in the parliament last year.

If jews want to come back then fine, but they should treated equally, as any Pole is, no extra money for being a minority etc.. also it would be nice if the Jews would stop stealing our houses from us and not even pay for the upkeep of the house thropughout the times of communism.
Harry
11 Mar 2015 #281
I dont really know about any bans on Jews in Warsaw, I'd really like a link for that

Here you go:

In 1482 or 1483 Duke Bolesław ordered the Jews to leave the city. They moved to nearby towns: New Warsaw, Błonie, Pułtusk and Czersk. They returned after a number of years, only to disappear again at the end of the 15th century. After Mazovia was annexed to the Kingdom of Poland, King Zygmunt the Old issued in 1527 the privilege De non tolerandis Judaeis, forbidding Jews both to live or temporarily stay in Warsaw and its suburbs or to own homes there.

zmh.um.warszawa.pl/wstep_a1.htm

however I know for sure that the Jews are passing racist laws in the land of Isarel now discriminating Arabs etc...

Really? I would very much look forward to reading from links you post to such laws (although you might want post them in a thread where they are on topic), pity that I never read from any such links.

it would be nice if the Jews would stop stealing our houses from us

Jews are not stealing houses in Poland; here in Poland we have the rule of law.
Perhaps you'd like to visit us sometime and find out what life is like in our country? I expect that the reality here is rather different to the view from England.
jon357 67 | 16,921
11 Mar 2015 #282
The past of jews was so terrible in Poland because of the German invasion

The history of Poland didn't start in 1939 - before then there were both good times and bad.

unlike the Uk for an example calling them hooked nosed demons etc.

Do check out the pogrom mentioned in this thread - it makes sad reading.

be it Polish with the rise of ONR, Ukrainians with Bandera or the Jewish

Don't forget that some Poles are also Jewish. Interesting that you mention ONR.

As a country of Poland, I belive that our land should be protected against western interests, rich people and big bussiness, its our land and we should never sell it any Germans e.g privatisation of the forests which nearly went through in the parliament last year.

Remember Poland voted to join the EU (and has done extremely well out of that) - one of the central tenets of that is freedom of capital.
Crow 148 | 9,320
11 Mar 2015 #283
"You think people should apologise for issues that happened over 1500 years ago"

If those who were and who are hostile on Slavs, sense that Slavs belong to serious and self-responsible civilization, they would already apologize. Obviously, they don`t taking Slavs seriously, neither culturally, neither politically, neither militarily. They don`t sense that Slavs taking their historical casualties seriously. But, this situation actually telling much about Slavs themselves. It not appears that Slavs expect any apologize, what is very shocking and even disturbing (from the angle of future prospects of Slavic civilization). Level of the medieval casualties of the Slavs, scale of crimes committed on them is above the levels of casualties and crimes that Black Africans suffered when were exposed to the era of slavery. Only holocaust crimes on Jews could be compared to the proportions of the crimes on early medieval Slavs and even then only in percents of the lost population to the number of the total population. But, if we talk about numbers in absolute sense, in the sense of the numbers of lost population and unborn children, Slavic casualties are far bigger and there is no any example in human history that can be used for comparison.

if you ask Jews same question- "You think people should apologise for issues that happened over 1500 years ago?"- no doubt, they would immediately conform. They have strong self respect and even above that, historical wisdom. What is also interesting, those strangers who correspond with Jews and belong to ethoses that hysterically harmed Jews, in most cases sense that Jews deserve to receive apologize. It again telling much about Jews themselves.

Sorry, my above quote was reply to jon357

Admin, please, see to correct it, if possible.

You think people should apologise for issues that happened over 1500 years ago?

goofy_the_dog
11 Mar 2015 #284
Poland is a country of tolerance i will not be sorry for what happend over 600 years ago.

Thecrule of law is often not just and mishandled

ONR helped the Jews to survive the war, read up on Jan Mosdorf, a Pole should know hes Nations history my friends ;)

and about the jewsn. Ever heard of the occupation of Palestine ?
jon357 67 | 16,921
11 Mar 2015 #285
Poland is a country of tolerance i will not be sorry for what happend over 600 years ago.

Both tolerance and intolerance play their part in its history. If you read the thread, you'll see it explained that people today are not responsible for the crimes of the past. Poland is very fortunate though to have a centuries old liberal tradition.

and about the jewsn. Ever heard of the occupation of Palestine ?

No.
goofy_the_dog
11 Mar 2015 #286
No.

read about it sometime, and of the illegal settlements etc
its quite .. enriching to our view of a certain group of people ;)
jon357 67 | 16,921
11 Mar 2015 #287
its quite .. enriching to our view of a certain group of people ;)

I was waiting for the racism to become explicit and bingo, I didn't have to wait long.

You could even go a step further and suggest that there are character traits among that

certain group of people

which have some bearing on their experiences over the centuries in Poland.
Harry
11 Mar 2015 #288
ONR helped the Jews to survive the war

Some ONR members did help Jews survive the war, other members of the ONR murdered their fellow Poles for the crime of being Jewish, some members of the ONR even collaborated with the Nazis and took part in Nazi-sponsored anti-semitic events, such as the 1940 easter pogrom in Warsaw.
goofy_the_dog
11 Mar 2015 #289
Id say that they have leraned some stuff from the people that oppressed them over 70 years ago tbh... I guess thgat you support the Gaza genocide?

some jews were hiding and getting all the help they could get from the Poles and the RCC.. other Jews joined the Polizei in the ghettoes, and other jews were in Gestapo (12 division) , some jews formed bands and where roaming the forests kjilling villageers etc in eastern Poland, so the ground rule is to stop generalising people something that you should learn i think ;)

History is far more complicated than the siple black v white
jon357 67 | 16,921
11 Mar 2015 #290
Id say that they have leraned some stuff from the people that oppressed them over 70 years ago tbh.

Not that most people there have roots in Europe, but don't let facts cloud your bigotry. And don't assume that the oppression in Poland (or indeed elsewhere in Europe) started only 70 years ago

Very sad when someone falls into a negative stereotype.
goofy_the_dog
11 Mar 2015 #291
Im just that more open minded than you, and i know my history thats all
You are the one thats bigoted against the Palestinians
yehudi 1 | 433
11 Mar 2015 #292
Poland was obviously a more desirable location for Jews than some other countries otherwise they wouldn't have migrated there. But for Polish people to take credit for that or be proud of that is mistaken. If Poland was hospitable to Jews in certain periods it was thanks to the kings. Peasants had no say in the matter, townspeople were hostile to Jews as a competing element, local noblemen were usually against the Jews (especially when they owed them money) and the Catholic clergy were openly anti-Jewish. Once the Polish People had their independence after WWI we see how hospitable they were to Jews.

But I agree that to talk about a "terrible past for Jews in Poland" is misleading too. Except for the mid 20th century the Jewish past was worse in other countries.
Vox - | 175
11 Mar 2015 #293
But for Polish people to take credit for that or be proud of that is mistaken.

I concur, by the same token Polish people shouldn't be blamed for what has befallen Jews in the 20th century either.
goofy_the_dog
11 Mar 2015 #294
The King gave the Jews special rights etc, rights to settle lower taxation if i remember correctly.. the King was the face of Poland, its head to be more precised and thus yes we can claim that were a tolerant country.

People are all different and entitled to their opinions, but what matters is what the government decides.

their independence after WWI we see how hospitable they were to Jews.

I think you forgot how the Polish Jews opted to form a Jewish state on the Polish lands during the 1918 Versailles treaty.. thank God the heads of the states did not listen.. but the violent and hateful zionism ensued.

The past wasnt terible for Jews in Poland, a lot of them want to come back to PL nowadays, ofc you also get the zionists like the President of Israel that openly said how Poles hated Jews and killed them etc during his visit to Poland this year... completely forgetting that POles gave lives for you guys during the war..

Normal Jews (or Israelis) are rreaking awesome, I d love to see a bigger Jewish community since it reminds me of the good old times when Poland was more of the hub of Central Europe.. however i do not wish Poland to be a insulted by a bunch of morrons from Xenet who do not know the history of their own people or ar e just mentally insane!!!
jon357 67 | 16,921
11 Mar 2015 #295
The King gave the Jews special rights etc, rights to settle lower taxation if i remember correctly.

It's all detailed on the previous page of this thread goof.
This:

the King was the face of Poland, its head to be more precised and thus yes we can claim that were a tolerant country.

doesn't sit well with:

This is spot on and you can still hear the echoes of that today.
Harry
11 Mar 2015 #296
i know my history thats all

You mean such as the fact that 90% of the time that Warsaw was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland Jews were forbidden from living there?

I think you forgot how the Polish Jews opted to form a Jewish state on the Polish lands during the 1918 Versailles treaty

Really? I would just love to hear about that!
Such a pity that I never will and never can, what with that never having happened.
goofy_the_dog
11 Mar 2015 #297
It was more of an economical need than to cleanse the area mate read up on it, also it was a social need, unfortunately many non Poles did not integrate well, we al know how the Polish countryside looked. I dont agree with it ofc, however i can seee some justifiable reasons for it, apart from that looking at how Israel deals with Arabs i thing we are fair and square we did it for sometime in our capital.. Jews do it on not their land for over 50 years.. plus the slow genocide of Gaza

Harry since you declare youreself as a Pole, i dont think you will have any difficulties with reading

The emancipation of the Jews , which took place in Europe in the nineteenth century awakened among them a new political ideas , among which one of the highlights was undoubtedly Zionism . He claimed that the Jews in the Diaspora are a nation like any other , and not just the religious community. Also believed that such activities will slow down the processes of assimilation of the Jewish minority in each country.

this: naszeblogi.pl/50359-judeopolonia-zydowskie-panstwo-w-panstwie-polskim
Borek Falecki - | 52
11 Mar 2015 #298
If Poland was hospitable to Jews in certain periods it was thanks to the kings. Peasants had no say in the matter, townspeople were hostile to Jews as a competing element, local noblemen were usually against the Jews (especially when they owed them money) and the Catholic clergy were openly anti-Jewish.

Genealogy of one of the best known Polish Jewish families: all...my ancestors and kinsfolk over three hundred years in Poland who actively participated in Polish life: the wise doctor from the Czech Brandeis family (now Brandys) who performed the duties of physician at the court of King Władysław IV Vasa and gave the beginning for more than one native Polish family of the nobility; the captain and doctor in Tadeusz Kościuszko's insurrectionary army; the member of the National Government during the January Uprising; and...three uncles in the Polish legions.

Today, it is 15th anniversary of the death of the Polish essayist and writer Kazimierz Brandys; it is worth mentioning today.
goofy_the_dog
11 Mar 2015 #299
Today, it is 15th anniversary of the death of the Polish essayist and writer Kazimierz Brandys and it is worth mentioning today.

Exactly y point, lets remember the good that both of our groups of people have done for the Most Serene Commonwealth ;) and then during the wars, the legionnaires who were both Jewish and Polish. Their evil Jews and evil Poles as in another group, I'd rather remember the good that we have done than the evil ;)
Harry
11 Mar 2015 #300
Harry since you declare youreself as a Pole

Do I? Perhaps you'd care to quote me saying that?

i dont think you will have any difficulties with reading

I can't get the espresso into me fast enough to finish it.

But I do look forward to you supporting your claim that

the Polish Jews opted to form a Jewish state on the Polish lands during the 1918 Versailles treaty

I can't wait to read about that!


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