Harry/Sjam claims it was a bad thing to smuggle a scarce resource
Immoral, even. Debating these two is like beating up a cripple.
Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?
Immoral, even. Debating these two is like beating up a cripple.
miranda
19 Feb 2009 #92
I actually enjoy Harry's arguments. At lest he can back it up.
Harry
19 Feb 2009 #93
Immoral, even. Debating these two is like beating up a cripple.
How surprising to find out that you know what it feels like to beat up a cripple.
You like Concentration Camp Harry's arguments? Weird.
Bzibzioh
19 Feb 2009 #95
I actually enjoy Harry's arguments.
I'm not. He is predictable from a mile away. Always following the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. And he has an agenda.
He spits on his host country.
You seem to want to say something, but just don't know how to do it.
Here it is again.
How many times did Nazis and their 'Bluey' collaborators (and Jewish Police. 13's et al) try and ease their consciences with that 'you can't eat gold' excuse.
No you can't eat gold and I believe you are that person that took your grandfather's gold ring in exchange for plums... because afterall without smuggling the people would have starved.
Harry/Sjam claims it was a bad thing to smuggle a scarce resource that could not be simply donated since there wasnt enough around even for Poles.
But there was obvioulsy enough food to go around to sell for gold which couldn't be eaten by those Poles who didn't have enough food to go around?
like beating up a cripple.
Telling choice of words :-)))
miranda
19 Feb 2009 #98
You like Concentration Camp Harry's arguments? Weird.
hey Jola, welcome to the forum:). I am not sure what you find weird. You realize that we might like different things in life??? I can not see a reason why I need to explain myself.
Always following the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law.
I am not sure what you mean by that. What is his agenda? I should actually ask Harry.
Harry
19 Feb 2009 #99
He is predictable from a mile away.
You mean I do things like back my statements with facts? Sorry about that.
Bzibzioh
19 Feb 2009 #100
You mean I do things like back my statements with facts?
No. I mean when someone starts a new thread about war I know right away what you gonna say. And BTW your "facts" are just spinned interpretations to serve your agenda.
I wonder how much gold Irena Sendlerowa demanded to help the hundereds of Polish Jews she saved.... none!
She must have been rich living a life of plenty then... No!
She was a simple Polish Christian, with a gracious soul.
She must have been rich living a life of plenty then... No!
She was a simple Polish Christian, with a gracious soul.
miranda
19 Feb 2009 #102
She was a simple Polish Christian, with a gracious soul.
don't mix religion with it. She was a good person because she was a good person, not because she was a Christian.
Bzibzioh
19 Feb 2009 #103
What is his agenda? I should actually ask Harry.
Don't hold your breath waiting.
miranda
19 Feb 2009 #104
he posted it and it was quite interesting> Where is it?
Harry
19 Feb 2009 #105
Don't hold your breath waiting.
As you are the one who claims that I have an agenda, you are the one who needs to back that claim, not me.
Nice to see that you still have nothing to contribute to the actually debate and still insist on only making personal comments.
don't mix religion with it. She was a good person because she was a good person, not because she was a Christian.
This is a statement of fact. Irena Sendlerowa was a Polish Christian with strong Christian beliefs and was responsible for saving Polish Jews. Read her story in her words: MATKA DZIECI HOLOCAUSTU.
She was instrumental in Zegota as was Zofia Kossak-Szczucka an active antisemite but devout Catholic who because of her Christian beliefs helped save hundreds of Polish Jews.
Kossak-Szczucka saw this largely as an issue of religious ethics. "Our feelings toward Jews have not changed," she wrote. "We do not stop thinking of them as political, economic and ideological enemies of Poland." But, she wrote, this does not relieve Polish Catholics of their duty to oppose the crimes being committed in their country.
"We are required by God to protest," she wrote. "God who forbids us to kill. We are required by our Christian consciousness. Every human being has the right to be loved by his fellow men. The blood of the defenceless cries to heaven for revange. Those who oppose our protest, are not Catholics."
"We are required by God to protest," she wrote. "God who forbids us to kill. We are required by our Christian consciousness. Every human being has the right to be loved by his fellow men. The blood of the defenceless cries to heaven for revange. Those who oppose our protest, are not Catholics."
So miranda it seems Christian religion and values did play a part in these women's actions after all...
... nor was it for payment in gold either!
I wonder how much gold Irena Sendlerowa demanded to help the hundereds of Polish Jews she saved.... none!
Do you get your food for free? What was the penalty for smuggling? What was the penalty for aiding Jews?
In fact, the Jews in the ghetto were working very hard for the Germans for the first 3 years of the war. They policed themselves. The Jewish police was extremely brutal. The Jewish Gestapo agents were turning in Jews and Poles who were helping Jews. This no one wants to talk about. Polish concentration camps and Polish smugglers?! Like I said, you would have to read the diaries from thee ghetto to get an idea of the extent of Jewish collaboration with the Germans. Do that now.
Bzibzioh
19 Feb 2009 #108
Nice to see that you still have nothing to contribute to the actually debate and still insist on only making personal comments.
Cos it's not a debate. Debate is when someone is actually offering to listen to the other side. So it would be waste of my time, as it will change nothing. And, Harry, you didn't see my personal comments yet.
... nor was it for payment in gold either!
Are you saying that Poles had an obligation to save all 3 million of Polish Jews, hide them and feed them during the WW2? And do it for free? Cos Poles themselves had a picnic in the same time? Just curious what would be the appropriate course of action for you?
Harry
19 Feb 2009 #109
The Jewish Gestapo agents were turning in Jews and Poles who were helping Jews. This no one wants to talk about.
We have already established that in the UK school children learn about the Jewish ghetto police and the Jewish Gestapo
Polish concentration camps
I must admit that the topic of post-WWII Polish concentration camps was not covered by the history lessons I had at school in the UK.
The topic which nobody wants to talk about is Prince's anti-semitic lie that the commanders of the post-WWII Polish concentration camps "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish". What do you think? Is Prince right? If so, please post the names he will not post and explain how two of the three camp commanders we have named lived and died in Poland.
The topic which nobody wants to talk about is Prince's anti-semitic lie that the commanders of the post-WWII Polish concentration camps "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish". What do you think? Is Prince right? If so, please post the names he will not post and explain how two of the three camp commanders we have named lived and died in Poland.
No. That is all you want to talk about on every thread. If you don't have anything to say about Auschwitz or the Ghetto, beat it.
miranda
19 Feb 2009 #111
So miranda it seems Christian religion and values did play a part in these women's actions after all...
I am sure they did, even though Kossak- Szczucka was ani- semitic - that is very Christian;)
Every Pole is anti-semitic by birth, no?
miranda
19 Feb 2009 #113
every Christian is for sure.
We have already established that in the UK school children learn about the Jewish ghetto police and the Jewish Gestapo
Did you learn about Spilker's boys?
Bzibzioh
19 Feb 2009 #115
Again, don't hold your breath waiting for Harry-I-don't-have-an-agenda to give you a strait answer.
Harry
19 Feb 2009 #116
If you don't have anything to say about Auschwitz or the Ghetto, beat it.
Seeing as Prince is claiming that the Jaworzno and Zgoda Polish concentration camps were run by men who "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish" and that both the Jaworzno and Zgoda Polish concentration camps were formerly sub-camps of Auschwitz, I am attempting to discuss Auschwitz.
The problem is that Prince has now run away from his lies and refuses to name the men who ran those camps and now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish".
This is an interesting book.
Am I a Murder?: Testament of a Jewish Ghetto Policeman (the original title is "A History of a Jewish Family During German Occupation") by Calel Perechodnik is an interesting account by a twenty-seven year old ghetto policeman in Otwock, a town near Warsaw. Perechodnik began his memoir on May 7, 1943, while hiding in the home of a Polish woman in Warsaw. The memoir, which is primarily a confession of the guilt he feels for his responsibility in bringing about the deportation of his wife and two year old daughter and their subsequent death in Treblinka, is unique among Holocaust testimonies and is extremely thought provoking. Perechodnik's account shares his profound sense of guilt for his inability to save his wife and child although that was the primary reason for his decision to become a ghetto policeman in early 1941. His description of the deportation on August 19, 1942, at the Umschlagplatz is chilling. The picture of his wife and daughter, sitting with the other victims as he carries out his duties, creates a surreal, circus-like scene that is intensified as he loads his boxcars. In relation to the previously mentioned comments by Viktor Frankl about the freedom of individuals in making decisions, it is interesting to compare the choices of Perechodnik, who carries out his duties at the Umschlagplatz, and his friend and fellow officer Abram Willendorf, who removes his police armband and joins his family in their wait for death. Perechodnik mentions several times his admiration for Willendorf, as well as for Janusz Korczak, who chose to die with the children under his care, but, sorrowfully, confesses that his fear of death prevented him from making the right decision.
academic.kellogg.edu/mandel/collins_rev.htm
Am I a Murder?: Testament of a Jewish Ghetto Policeman (the original title is "A History of a Jewish Family During German Occupation") by Calel Perechodnik is an interesting account by a twenty-seven year old ghetto policeman in Otwock, a town near Warsaw. Perechodnik began his memoir on May 7, 1943, while hiding in the home of a Polish woman in Warsaw. The memoir, which is primarily a confession of the guilt he feels for his responsibility in bringing about the deportation of his wife and two year old daughter and their subsequent death in Treblinka, is unique among Holocaust testimonies and is extremely thought provoking. Perechodnik's account shares his profound sense of guilt for his inability to save his wife and child although that was the primary reason for his decision to become a ghetto policeman in early 1941. His description of the deportation on August 19, 1942, at the Umschlagplatz is chilling. The picture of his wife and daughter, sitting with the other victims as he carries out his duties, creates a surreal, circus-like scene that is intensified as he loads his boxcars. In relation to the previously mentioned comments by Viktor Frankl about the freedom of individuals in making decisions, it is interesting to compare the choices of Perechodnik, who carries out his duties at the Umschlagplatz, and his friend and fellow officer Abram Willendorf, who removes his police armband and joins his family in their wait for death. Perechodnik mentions several times his admiration for Willendorf, as well as for Janusz Korczak, who chose to die with the children under his care, but, sorrowfully, confesses that his fear of death prevented him from making the right decision.
academic.kellogg.edu/mandel/collins_rev.htm
Harry
19 Feb 2009 #118
Again, don't hold your breath waiting for Harry-I-don't-have-an-agenda to give you a strait answer.
My apologies for jola needing to wait 17 whole minutes for a straight answer. How long have I been waiting for Prince to to name the men who ran those Polish concentration camps and now "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish"? Will you post about that too?
Again I need to extend my congratulations to you for making a post which entirely fails to engage in debate but instead focuses on personal matters. Superb stuff.
I understand, but why do you have to do it on this thread. Start a new one.
How much gold Irena Sendlerowa demanded to help the hundereds of Polish Jews she saved.... none!
That there were Jewish collaborators is not a secret if it was then you would not have been able to copy and paste references to it. It is not secret either that Poles also collaborated and exploited Jews either. I personally have acknowledged both throughout this thread. The fact that Jewish memoirs mention Jewish collabortaion often must tell you that even Jews recognise the wrongs committed by some Jews!
It seems you cannot acknowledge the fact that Poles were also as much involved in the self-serving exploitation of the ghetto Jews, as the Jewish Police, the 13's et al.
To a moral person there is a difference between extorting over-inflated price from a starving person in exchange for food to save that life than a fair trade. If such a trade could ever be fair. There is no doubting the fact that prices were extortionate because the Polish Jews had no choice to pay that price or starve to death and this fact was ruthlessly exploited by both Polish 'Blueys' on the ghetto gates, the Jewish Police, the German guards, plus 13's etc., And who was risking their lives doing the smuggling?
Of course you could say that since the ghetto Jews were going have to pay any price it might as well be to me... its going to happen anyway and of course they can't eat gold or their fur-coats, artworks or jewellery, boots, silks, and everything else they had until they starved to death.
That there were Jewish collaborators is not a secret if it was then you would not have been able to copy and paste references to it. It is not secret either that Poles also collaborated and exploited Jews either. I personally have acknowledged both throughout this thread. The fact that Jewish memoirs mention Jewish collabortaion often must tell you that even Jews recognise the wrongs committed by some Jews!
It seems you cannot acknowledge the fact that Poles were also as much involved in the self-serving exploitation of the ghetto Jews, as the Jewish Police, the 13's et al.
To a moral person there is a difference between extorting over-inflated price from a starving person in exchange for food to save that life than a fair trade. If such a trade could ever be fair. There is no doubting the fact that prices were extortionate because the Polish Jews had no choice to pay that price or starve to death and this fact was ruthlessly exploited by both Polish 'Blueys' on the ghetto gates, the Jewish Police, the German guards, plus 13's etc., And who was risking their lives doing the smuggling?
Of course you could say that since the ghetto Jews were going have to pay any price it might as well be to me... its going to happen anyway and of course they can't eat gold or their fur-coats, artworks or jewellery, boots, silks, and everything else they had until they starved to death.