The great mistakes of Poland's history?

You don't need to discuss this issue with me but just ask some Silesian small town boy, third generation lodger of a "familok-slum" in a poor neighbourhood of Siemianowice.

Blue collar job in Poland versus blue collar in the UK but with plasma TV and Canary Islands last minute flight perspective.


As above - own flat, color tv, Canary Islands last minute and Harz IV if necessary. Still an exotic dream for many people in Poland.


My fault - I presented Jasienica's views not precisely enough.
His idea is that Poland should have concentrated its efforts on the Western politics scene and not got involved into any Eastern-Slavonic issue.

Aha, ok. However, there are no guarantees that following the German model would have yielded better results. We just don't know how things would have panned out and conjectural speculation is just that.

And electricity and metal works and special materials and everything.


Yes there was abundant mineral wealth but the region was till pyss poor.


Stachiewicz?! One historian please!


ATs outranged all German tanks.


He ignores the fact that while polonising Germany was possible it was so much easier to dominate the east.

Maybe 20 years since we regained independance is a long period of time, but it is not a bit a disaster. Polish life of misery? Do you want so bad to drive a luxury car? You are just saying that you are a pathetic loser incapable of making your own life better. You hope that somebody else will do it for you. There wasn't a wall on the border with Germany and somehow the inflow of beautiful existance which you dream of never crossed the river. Maybe, there is some other reason for that.


We don't owe you anything. If not your retarded expansionist policies, there wouldn't be any Russia nowodays. You could have dealt with Swedes and Germans, while we could fight Russians and Turks. But no! Your hungry mugs hadn't enough. You had to backstab and split the country. Why didn't you send your people to study in Germany, to change their mentality, which they (you claim) got infected with from Lithuanians and Ukrainians?

And take it for granted? ;) Your major national flaw is haughtiness and arrogance and no German will ever cure it. But definately try.

Sok, a recurring theme that I see time and again is the removal of internal trade barriers and tariffs, coupled with improved infrastructure YET a cutting off of foreign trade relations. Why was that the case? You can't blame a lack of foreign investment if you sever the chord.

Aha, lacking in effective management techniques? The region had vast riches dating back to Bismarck :)

You lied about the effectiveness of his plans. The Battle of the Border went horribly wrong. You underestimated their blitzkrieg strategy and overestimated your military capabilities. How can it have been a success when you lost in just over a month? Your defensive lines were compromised and you didn't know where to send men. To be fair, you couldn't really have foreseen the Drang Nach Osten from Prussia as it was in its infancy as an idea.

Poland cut trade relations? Thats some new history for me.


The region was so poor because it had poor management under Bismarck.


He never planned the border battle just the mobilisation.


The Battle of the Border went very well untill the collapse of the 5th infantry division, all across the front the army was holding the line however with severing the line in Pomerania it was effectively over regardless of other successes everywhere.


Germans didnt use Blitzkrieg in Poland, they used traditional breakthrough and envelopment tactics.


We did? Funny so why did Kutrzeba say outright that Poland is incapable of defence longer then 1-2 months?

In other words you dont know sh*t Sean and to cover it up you fall on your rubbish conspiracy theories.


The war was an obvious failure however multiple major battles were won and thats more that can be said for UK and France in 1940 or Russia in 1941.

Well, I remember this differently...I learned that Silesia was a rich and developed region compared to others...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Silesia

This seems to support my memory:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia

By when? It had null factories thats for certain and coal wont build you a tank.

Ps. many of the regions including Breslau were in Germany.

Maybe there is the misunderstanding...

According to one Nikolaus Wolf, yes ;)

So in this respect Poland was similar to South Africa? Plenty of natural resources and minerals but nobody with the savvy of how to help the community, just themselves? I can't give you an exact time frame but many prospered here because of coal mining.

His overall plans, Sok. He failed to cover all bases.

No, it went horribly wrong and that's documented history. Stop the BS! Several mini-battles constituted the Battle of the Borders and you were trounced in a matter of hours and days. Only in the Battle of Hel did you last over a month. Now tell me this. Back in 1933, you were oh so mighty and would apparently take out Germany in a week. You put all the preparations in place through Stachiewicz and SR and got all those lovely goodies you spoke of. Why then did you lose in a matter of days some battles where the preparation was supposedly full and effective?

You know what, Sok, you are a classic Polish romantic. You cite all these technologies and hype up all those cavalry raids (20th century, LOL) but you can't mask the fact that you got whooped left, right and centre. Stachiewicz was so good that he got interned, TWICE. Once under the order of Władisław Sikorski, LOL.

"Successes everywhere", you said. You really are a deluded man, you know that? "The war was an obvious failure" (I'll give you a clue, 21:14 05/04/10;)). Guess the author of that quote?! I'm sure a Bushism could be found along those lines. Maybe sth like, 'we may have failed but we definitely succeeded', LOL. How about that, can I make that the Sokrates Declaration? The Greek philosopher would be rolling in his grave! ;) Ah, an obvious failure for the Allies? Didn't we win? ;) ;) I think I read somewhere that we did and it wasn't at Back of Matchboxes R Us ;)

Germans didn't use Blitzkrieg in Poland? ROTFL! You are senile, dude. I believe that historians distorted its true extent (Hart, for example) and that enveloping did indeed take place but, nonetheless, it was employed.

Sorry, I don't know of that guy and I can't be expected to. You lost a lot of the key battles in the first week, never mind 2 months.

Ah, good old Polish deflection techniques. If in doubt, go and have a pop at someone else. Look, Poland fell in 1 month. Britain and the allies won over a few years, true??

Polish GDP grew 310% in 20 years, thats pretty savvy.

Let me explain to you how economy of a 100% agricultural Poland worked, you need to buy machines, train specialists and build factories, you also need to build infrastructure, secure resources to have that economy going and to make all those investments you needed money.

Now if you're a poor country like Poland and your two immidiate neighbours embargo you, you cant purchase machines, train specialists and build up infastructure and building base all at once which is why polish economy while growing fast could not reach a level of an industrialised country in 20 years.


Aka Polish armies did not lose a single battle in the first 48 hours untill the 5th division collapsed (due to polish high command mess up by the way) so yes the border battle was a complete success everywhere for the first 2 days.


I dont hype anything, cavalry was inferior to mechanized units if only by principle of suffering more then 10x losses in most engagements, i'm saying however that it was an effective fighting unit and its weakness as portrayed in the western media is a myth.


"Rauss' memoirs "Memoirs of the Soldier" by Guderian and more, i dont care about what some historian chooses to make up, Germans themseves admitted it was not Blitzkrieg, everyone on the topic agrees it was no Blitzkrieg.

German tanks did not race to meet deep objectives, they broke through and supported the infantry, thats not to say Germans didnt use new tactics like organic air support or motorised kampfgruppen but it had nothing to do with actuall Blitzkrieg that got used in France.


Given that the german army failed to reach any strategic objectives by 14th September and every assault against Warsaw was ending in a bloodbath for the attackers i'd say 1-2 months (without the russian invasion) was pretty realistic.


Last i checked Brits and French got their arse handed to them with only one brigade level battle (lost by the way) in a grand total of about a month of conflict, at the same time Poland had fought multiple army level battles and won a grand total of 12 major battles 2 of the division level and 10 regiment or brigade level.

The losses incurred by the Polish army constituted more then 70% of the total german losses fighting Belgium, Holland, France and UK in 1941 so i'll still stick to my point that the polish army performed better than any allied force 1942.

My mistake and my apology, I meant Silesia. Bad local management by the seems of it. Poland is another story.

OK, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Border
This proves you wrong. Many individual battles were lost in the first 48 hours. Caught in a lie again!

It had its strengths as the Battle of Mokra near Częstochowa showed but the threats are easily repelled with some adjustment. It was more effective in the 14th-century. The Germans didn't maximise their technological advantage against it in WWII but it lost its element of surprise.

Blitzkreig wasn't used?
schoolshistory.org.uk/EuropeatWar/blitzkrieg_poland.htm
megaessays.com/viewpaper/54633.html

Maybe you prefer audiovisual formats, ...

Are you testing me out or bluffing? Have you ever heard of Operation Wasserkante? If not, I suggest we start with that after you read up on it. You were trounced again there. Not successful? Chyba żartujesz teraz, chłopaku!

You guys performed well, yes. However, defeated in 1 month suggests not so well. For all your stats, we still won.

Now, "the war was an obvious failure", who said it? "Successes everywhere"? Irreconciliable positions?

I'm sorry Mława and Jordanów and its not a lie dont make me research every reply you dont research any of them.


You call Bzura or Tomaszów Lubelski easy victories?


Strategic bombing? You know what it did to Stalingrad?:)

Mława and Jordanów, where did they spring from? What publications? I don't make you research anything, I generally respond to principles of yours and not specific numbers. Operation Wasserkante is quite well known.

I said "easily repelled with some adjustment". This is in accordance with the vision of Sun Tzu and a basic human trait of learning from past experience. Where did I call those victories easy? They didn't last that long so one can only presume that they weren't overly complicated. They certainly weren't protracted.

Was it efficacious or not, Sok? You were talking about the successful attainment of objectives, your words. So, was Operation Wasserkante an effective operation or not?

Any publication, they're quite well known battles, operation Wasserkante had zip effect on polish morale or defence of the city.


Find yourself a link thats not a wiki to the Battle of Bzura or Tomaszów Lubelski, you'll learn a bit about how "easily" Germans repelled polish assaults.


Battle of Bzura - 10 days.
Battle of Tomaszów Lubelski - 7 days.
Siege of Hel - 32 days.

Thats pretty protracted and very complicated, if you want we can get into any major battle to show you just how complicated they were.


Nope, the terror they caused did not result in a surrender, they failed to destroy or weaken any significant military instalations, they did wreck a lot of houses but thats militarily insignificant.

That's because Polish morale is strong and their defensive instincts powerful. It doesn't detract from the inefficacy and the lack of success. Yes, the Pursuit Brigade did an honourable job of defending Poland but the main reason why it wasn't more of a success was poor visibility that day.

OK, I'll have a look :)

'The bombing of rail network, crossroads and troop concentrations played havoc on Polish mobilisation, while attacks upon civilian and military targets in towns and cities disrupted command and control by wrecking the antiquated Polish signal network: Shortly after, in a period of a few days, Luftwaffe numerical and technological superiority took its toll on the Polish Air Force' absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II

how about this?

The Germans weren't at full strength in those battles, right? ;)

Germany hadadvantage because it attacked Poland from three directions:West from Germany,north from East Prussia and south from Slovakia.So the polish could not distribute their forces appropriately for effective defense.

And because our defensive instincts are powerfull our offensives gave Germans such a boatload of trouble? C'mon Sean even to you it must sound bloody silly.


You mean the antiquated radios?


They had numerical advantage between 2:1 and 5:1 depending on the battle if thats what you're asking.

I don't follow. I didn't make any connection between defensive and offensive here. Are you tired? That's because you threw everything but the kitchen sink at them. It was in the name of the defence of the country. You didn't declare war, they did.

Whose antiquated radios? The Poles worked wonders with code cracking and radio. Shared intel also helped the cause.

felsztyn.tripod.com/germaninvasion/

it sounds dubious but there's some good reading here. I like the element of surprise attacks.

Dear friend the problem is that I know your country.
And maybe better than you do.


Maybe I am, maybe not - you are definitely not in position to judge it.
But enlighten me pls how my personal situation refers to the main topic of this thread ?
And even if I don't drive a luxury car how does it change the economic ranking and political creditability of Ukraine ?

Any discussion with you is absolutely counterproductive - as a hatred driven person you are only repeating your favorite ahistoric mantras which are hardly in line with the mainstream of European historical knowledge.

But really ... feel free to believe in Polish plot and stay in your besieged fortress of Halychina !

Polish greatest mistakes:
not allowing Ukrainians to join the union
allowing Jews to settle in Poland
helping Germans with battle of Vienna
helping napoleon
aligning with cowards not Germany during WW2

I agree with most of em them except for allowing Jews to settle in Poland

A vile comment


Who do you mean. Poland was in no position to 'align' with anybody during WW2. It was occupied.

And that comment could only come from someone slow-witted enough not to realise what the WWII German regime thought of Poles.

ha, ha, so now finally somebody else is responsible for Polish mistakes. Interesting.

I doubt it, but let it be. What is the disaster about my country? It goes through rough times, so?


What economic ranking and political credibility of Ukraine has to do with the topic?


Borrka, where do I judge you? You have your opinion and I respect it. All I said was explaining the way I understand your words: you pretend to having had some alliance and somehow bad influence of Lits and Uks on Polish mentality, which prevents you from driving Ferrari. These two points I disagree. Nothing against your personal desires. Simply I view them as an excuse often used by weak individuals.


Borrka, I love you and all PF members equally. Even Sasha, with whom I might sometimes use rough language, is one of my favorite people. No hatred whatsoever. There was some childish fervency, which slowly disappears.

You said:


Is this an ahistoric mantra you are talking about? There was Polish eastward directed expansionism, no alliances with Ukrainians or Bielorusins. There are multitude of claims (joking or not) about bringing culture and intelligence to wild Ukis running in the forests. Now you bemoan Polish fate in an offensive (at least I felt it) way


Why didn't you expand westward? Were scared or something? If so, then why mention Ukrainians at all. Say simply:"I, Borrka, want to be a German and my people be German-like". That's nice and I have nothing against it. But to put it the way you did is wrong in my opinion.

Always. Poles are obviously the zenith of perfection and common sense.

nah, that was just propaganda to justify the expansion.

*nods*
As there was a Imperial Kaizer which "controlled" most of then days Holy Roman Empire, there was no quarrels with them at a long term, also Ruthinian lands were attractive as nobody else made any claims to them. It was Russia who claimed them later on, as Poland-Lithuania having an "monopoly" on those territories was very suitable. It wasn't until Russia developed that many factors starting to look at Poland-Lithuania with a greedy mind. (Sweden, Ottomon Empire, Russia and Transylvania)

Ofc later on it all were old history as Poland-Lithuania were partitioned, although Poles started to go back to their "Imperial" claims in 1918 when making a great success towards Soviet Union. If you check maps of how they imagined Poland would be, you would be quiet shocked. As they looked upon it as smaller then nowadays Poland. After the success with Soviet Union in 1921 they could even draw the line. As they felt glorious and that nobody could stand a chance against them they expanded their idea of the new born Poland.

Something close to this picture was the idea of the reborn Poland if you look at the Polish population except for those in Ukraine and Belarussia and Lithuania, then you could grasp the idea of how Poland should look like for those who started the Uprising in 1918

Something must be missing in translation but those are kindergarten level questions, not college level. Don't you supposed to know SOMETHING about Poland?

Personally I think not finishing off the Prussians and the Russians when we had a chance were the worst mistakes we have ever done: in other words, we've been too merciful.

But is this a good or a bad thing?