The great mistakes of Poland's history?

The army had to be transported and deployed in the east before the first major
clashes occured, that's why Czechs were able to backstab us - most of our army
was already in the east when the Polish-Czech cease fire was signed.

Besides...


althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Zaolzie_Campaign_%28Munich_Goes_Sour%29

On July 28, 1920 - when we were busy fighting off the great offensive
of Tuchaczewski, shortly before the battle of Warsaw when the things were looking
grim for us, in such situation when we were in an extremely difficult postition we were
forced to give up the land to Czechs.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War#1920

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281920%29


That's irrelevant - Polish military operation was contemporaneous with the German
invasion, but it was a result of a decision of the Polish government, and Germany
was not consulted when the operations begun. There was no Polish-German
co-operation, as agreed between Poles and Czechs: "the Czechoslovak government
agreed to cede the already occupied territories to Poland, while Poland was to make no
further border revision and refuse any agreements with Germany".

Besides, considering the horrors of Nazi occupation of subdued countries we can
safely assume that Czechs living among Poles in Zaolzie preferred Polish reign there.

From reading the last 3 pages, quite a number of people are required to learn Polish history 101, properly this time round. Also, to the thread maker...why are you talking such rubbish? Poland has always been a Slavic country which borders the Saxons, there are no reasons to wish to be like them nor in history has Poland ever been WESTERN. If you did your research on this you would know there was influences from both east and west which includes music and language obviously depending on which region you are talking about.

Which is exactly why so many peasants took part in Kościuszkos uprising or why 80% of legionaries have been country people, both patriotism and nationalism existed and were a major theme in the period, you need to learn about our history before you try to issue opinions.

"I believe" = i know sh*t but i feel compelled to have an opinion and sell it as if it was educated rather then shyte i made up from the top of my head, thats what your post really is.


For one thing they didnt tax Poles for being Polish, didnt persecute Catholicism, didnt send Polish children to 10-20 year long compulsory military service?

Apropos, I just read that there will be polish troops parading alongside russian troops in Moscow this 9th May...is this right? Woah what a development! :)

(And that there will be a russian parade in Kiev/Ukraine too...) Things are changing fast!

Poland's culture and language would be completely non-slavic today if not for such a smart move by our slavic ancestors to stay east. After all Mieszko was only baptized after pressure.


You lack Rzeczpospolita history, Polish language and culture was dominant in the commonwealth and is the reason why most Ukrainians(Ruthenians) didn't like the idea of joining + having to convert to Catholicism. Czechs republic is divided on culture and way of life by region to region, obviously lands occupied under different countries had effects on way of life.


Why do you come off as sounding greedy? Benefits lol...Poland was culturally aware of everything during that period. Every country in the world has its downfall - Byzantine and Roman Empire, Imperial Russia as did Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.


It was all because of pressure from the church, in reality Poles didn't care for Lithuanian Pagans as Paganism in Poland was still being practiced. The profits at that time would have been land and so what Poland had a war with Teutonic order soon after. Slavs and Balts have had to be always close with each other suffering from invasion from all angles for example - Huns, Turks, Mongols, Swedes.

I'm willing to learn, Sokrates. Now show me proof that 'so many peasants took part in the uprising'. I want to see exact numbers from independent, non-Polish sources, and I also want to see what the percentage of the total population was that actually participated in the uprising...

Paganism in XV century Poland???

Hey...no reaction to a soon-to-be-seen image of polish soldiers parading besides russian soldiers! :)

themoscowtimes.com/vedomosti/article/nato-members-invited-to-victory-day-parade/403325.html

Got any more info?

Just added a link....

65 years after the war and still marching...

I wonder about the french though....


Wonder if they really leave the huge Stalin portraits out which were actually planned for the veterans...

dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1258905/Moscow-British-troops-march-Red-Square-Stalin-portrait.html

France was in the war? :)

If British, US, and French soldiers have a problem with marching in front of a portrait of Stalin, maybe they shouldn't have allied with him.

Looks like someone tries to drop a bomb, cant find any confirmation in our press.

The guests might not want to parade under his portrait I would assume.

*scratches head too*


Keep me updated yes? That will be really interesting!

Why did it have to be transported? Couldn't Poland have simply stuck to the commitments it had given only the previous year that no sovereign rule should be executed in the disputed region by any party until a final settlement had been reached? Would it really have been so difficult for Poland to actual mean what it said and say what it meant?


No, they had already taken it from you (before you were fighting the Soviets) after you went back on your word.


So you agree that you went in first and they followed. Good. By the way, you may wish to note that the Czechoslovak government is the one with the right to make decisions about Czechoslovak territory, not the Polish government.


As of 1938 the Nazis had a far better record of dealing with minority people than Poland did. Just look at the thousands of Ukrainian, Belarussian and Lithuanian churches, schools and libraries Poles either closed or destroyed.

ktvu.com/news/22931945/detail.html

If they really pull this off....letting Nato troops parading under Stalins portrait...*gapes*

Will do, for now it looks kinda iffy, who did they sent an invitation to exactly, did they get a reply and if so was it positive etc, no such facts for now.

Why did the army have to be transported to the east? To fight the Soviets
of course - you missed the point again.


I think you are confusing everything here, Harry (as you usually do). It was Czechoslovakia
who invaded Poland - not the other way around. They attacked and occupied ethnically
Polish lands.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts




If you had actually read the second part of the sentence...


...you would have known I meant that there was no Polish-German co-operation of any
kind and you wouldn't have made a fool of yourself yet again.


I can understand that your hatred of Poland is accompanied by your love and admiration
of Nazi Germany, but please try to avoid such blatant lies if you want to keep those lousy,
tiny shards of credibility you might still have on this forum.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Jews#Jews_under_the_Nazis_.281933.E2.80.931939.29

Well, the Brits have officiall accepted already.. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8575911.stm

The US too I've read...

And Poland!
thenews.pl/international/artykul127145_poland-in-moscow-for-victory-day-celebrations.html
thenews.pl/national/artykul128654_dignified-representation--demanded-at-ww-ii-ceremony.html

Again, that's the newest news: themoscowtimes.com/vedomosti/article/nato-members-invited-to-victory-day-parade/403325.html

Really a popcorn moment! ;)

Umm, Poland and Czechoslovakia came to an agreement in 1925 on the borders, and then Poland reneged and attacked Czechoslovakia with the Nazis.

What Poland did helped the Nazis justify the partition (as did the actions of the Hungarians).

Notice that nothing is said about any official polish responce (or any polish responce whatsoever) its still iffy, nothing in our press, no mention of any officials in russian press, one senator is named and thats it, i'll make a thread in the politics section if something comes up in our newspapers.

Okay.

It seems that it is impossible for you to get your head around the idea that if Poland hadn't broken its word, Poland wouldn't have needed to fight the Czechs. Typical Polish arrogance, you start a fight and then whine about both needing to fight and losing the fight you started.


Both Poland and Czechoslovakia agreed that neither state would exercise sovereign rule in the disputed territory: Poland promptly did that and ignored all Czechoslovak requests to stop.


So your case is that the Jews of Zaolzie should have been happy to be in Poland and that this happiness overshadows the Czechs who unwillingly became a minority in their own territory? Poland treated Jews appallingly in the late 1930s: ghetto benches, bans on entering the professions, you even refused to let Polish citizens enter Poland just because they were Jewish! But at least you make no attempt to justify your actions in the east, that at least is one tiny positive.

"Within the region originally demanded from Czechoslovakia by Nazi Germany in 1938 was
an important railway junction city of Bohumín. The Poles regarded the city as of crucial
importance to the area and to Polish interests (...) the Polish leader, Colonel Józef Beck
believed that Warsaw should act rapidly to forestall the German occupation of the city."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_border_conflicts

Poland didn't "attack" Czechoslovakia "with the Nazis" - Poland acted
to forestall the German occupation - how is that "acting with" the Nazis?

Besides...


So, to sum things up:

1. Czech offered to open negotiations on territories in question.
2. We presented our demands.
3. Czechs agreed to them.
4. Poland annexed the aforementioned territory.

There was no invasion - Czechs consented to our proposals. Poland didn't act in any
form of co-operation with Germany. Why do I have to repeat the obvious over and
over again?


The fact that we were preparing for national parliamentary elections in the area
justifies the Czech armed invasion, right?


Czechs were resolving conflicts with military force and they eventually fell to military
force. Sounds fair if you ask me.

Good job, thanks for the help! How delusional is that?

To sum things up

1.Poland and Czechoslovakia had some back and forth conflicts over the region.
2.An agreement was reached in 1925 by both sides.
3.Poland invaded and annexed land with the Nazis after the Munich agreement.

I didn't see the part in there where Benes sent a thank you card.

Do you have any kind of credible reference that Czechoslovak leadership called up Poland and offered up the territory? We won't fight because your accomplices the Nazis are raping our country is different than offering it up.

Considering that Czechoslovakia had a mutal defense pact with France and the Soviet Union, it's a shame that those countries didn't aid their allies and attack the Nazis, Poles, and Hungarians.

You really are a most pathetic liar. Let's read the whole quote and especially the bits which you leave out.


So the real sequence of events was:
1. The Czechoslovaks sent proposals to Britain, France and the USSR but not to Poland.
2. The Poles send an ultimatum.
3. The Czechoslovaks realise that this one is going to go the same way as the rest of the Munich agreement.

And let's read on in this wonderful source you have provided us:


Which part of 'Nazi accomplice' are you finding hard to understand?


You had agreed not to exercise sovereign rule in that territory until a final agreement on the border had been reached. You broke your word (just as you did to Western Ukraine and to Lithuania, problem for you was that the Czechoslovaks had the means to kick your arses).


And what happened to mighty Poland? Oh, and one more thing: all of the land you took in 1938, which nation is it in now?


No, because he left out the bit of the text which says that their leadership did not do that!

There was a lot of ambivalence shown by Britain and France towards the build up to war, Sok. France blindly believed that peace was gonna be the norm, they would have enjoyed drinking parties with Chamberlain ;)

France could have performed more trickery as they border Germany, Britain doesn't. Strategically, the Germans would have seen our attack coming, especially given the extra week they were given to prepare. The Luftwaffe sustained only minor losses (major for 2 days but it's all relative) in the first couple of days against Poland and could have intercepted us quite freely. I'm not privy to the discussions between France and Britain as to an attack from the West.

A possible mistake on Poland's part was not insisting that France join them. RS could have done this at the behest of WS. France and Britain showed their weak sides.

They could've just y'know invade, Germans had 200 thousand militias and reserve troops along the border, French army could roll up their defence within 48 hours, the French had more tanks mobilised than german contingents artillery, tanks and armored cars combined.


Still Brits had a navy that could effectively blockade Germany, they could've easily land their forces as well as a French contingent to bolster Poland, they could do a lot more then token bombings and pamphlet dropping, between France and UK their combined strategic capacities were unlimited.


Out of 2000~ 562 were damaged, out of said 562 approximiately 101-150 (sources vary and i'll ignore Emmerling as he's full of biased sh*t) were destroyed, in mid September Luftwaffe was down to 75% of its strength and only a portion of its machines were actuall bombers (in total about 1200) and they were needed above Poland.

Even if we assume that Germany could devote a completely unrealistic amount of 50% of its active airforce to fight Brits and the French thats only about 700 combat planes, less than 90 fighters in that number.

By comparison France in 1939 had 535 M.S.406 fighters, UK could easily pitch in with at least 250-300 Hurricanes, fighters alone would outnumber the grand total of German combat machines of all types.


With 200 fighter aircraft and at least half of them being forced to stay in Poland Luftwaffe could do sh*t, combined allied airforce totalled at over 800 fighter aircraft against Luftwaffes 230~ with 30% of it being made up by heavy fighters which were weak unwieldy machines.


I think that the French middle finger was big enough that any discussion about France possibly joining us can be dropped, they were ready to wave the flag and thats it.