The great mistakes of Poland's history?

David, you seem to have missed the point. The whole discussion was about whether Germany was a 'craphole' between 1300 and 1600, as Sok said, or not.


Well, better a few wars here and there than 50% of your entire population wiped out within a short period of time.


You saw that I wrote "Please correct me if I'm wrong", did you?

Germany lost 30% of its population during the 30 years war.


The local archbishop, however the real power rested with the king and the magnates, the church was powerfull but it could not and did not get uppity without the consent of the great houses or the crown and untill late XVI century none of them agreed to any meddling, religion was to be a free choice and that was it.


I'll be more specific, life in Germany for an average German subject of any country in the HRE was massively less attractive then the life of an average peasant or citizen in Poland.

Polish subjects had easier access to jobs, were far better protected by law, were not exploited by nobles, paid smaller taxes and didnt know what hunger was, no one abused you because of your race or religion and there was no inquisition.

In addition it was much easier to establish a business since Poland from 1333 to approximately 1600 was experiencing an explosive economic boom, education was also much cheaper and easy to access since before 1550 there existed no class restrictions.

Why do you think so many Germans, Jews, Tartars, Ruthenians, Scots, Irish, Hungarians and Czechs settled in Poland? In comparison to medieval-medium reinessance Poland every other country looked crap from the perspective of a common man, and Germany was particulary unpleasant to live in unless you were a rich noble, probably the only worse place would be medieval England.


Its not vague at all, we know quite a lot about those times, including the prices of shoes or loaves of bread in specific polish and german cities.

Sorka, in the end it was my answer that was vague. :)

What I meant was that you can say that life of a pessant in the Commonwealth was relatively good or awful andboth statements may be right. It all depends on the time frame you are reffering to, as people in the 15th and 18th century had different living conditions.

We know that in the case of Krakau and other towns that Germans were invited to settle here as the mongol invasions left these lands practically depopulated and devastated.

Apr 25, 10, 17:34 - Thread attached on merging:
Key periods in Poland's history?

Maybe some fruitful people amongst the masses here could give me an indication for a powerpoint presentation im doing in college on Poland ... but what period of events do you regard as key historical periods in Poland as i have two slides to create with this information and briefly talk about when i deliver it.

I need to make sure that i bring it into present day if that helps you give me a few dates and events :)

Many thanks on your help

The great mistakes of our history ?

Attacking the Panzer units with cavalry? :-)

It was actually a Panzer support company the cavalry attacked , there were no tanks present at the time...later some tanks showed up along with a cameraman , he filmed the bit we have all seen with the dead cavary horses among the tanks...made a great story for the Germans back home...but not quite true....

I've been quite specific in my statements, between 12th and mid 17th centuries Poland had the highest living standards in all of Europe, the situation started to visibly degrade around 1600s but was still better than in Germany, only after the Deluge in 1650s did it plunge drastically to a point Poland did not recover.

let me guess nobody on this forum has ever heard of the polish 7tp tank or the fact that poland took out over 900 panzers and/or armoured cars during the invasion. what a surprise.

this thread is about mistakes.. start another about polish prowess, if you'd like.

Not thinking about the future :)

Polish gentry and aristocracy gained a superb position over the king and other social classes. They cared only for their own interest and ignored the interest of the state. It all ended with partitions coz Polish elites saw nothing wrong with having their gigantic estates protected by Russian troops instead of Polish ones.

I am afraid it's not really truth. It was rather a Polish peasant who didn't care in which country he has to live.

@pawian
@Alien

You both have some truth in your posts.

@Milow
Excellent post mate !

Complete bollox. :):) How could a peasant care if the chief enemy to him and his family was not a Russian or Austrian occupier but the Polish landlord who owned the village with all peasants in in and could trade them like cattle to another landlord? Peasants, treated as cattle and semislaves, had to work hard 6 days a week for free in their owners` field. They didn`t have time and energy to care about any country. When the Russian tsar abolished serfdom and liberated Polish peasants at last, they founded and built monuments to him.

E.g,
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomnik_Aleksandra_II_w_Cz%C4%99stochowie

Monument to Alexander II in Częstochowa - the monument to "Tsar-Liberator" Alexander II Romanov in Częstochowa , which was erected in 1889 at Jasna Góra in the vicinity of the Jasna Góra monastery complex on the initiative of the head of the Częstochowa district, Michał Konesynow [2] .

The construction of the monument was financed by voluntary contributions from peasants , who appreciated the importance of enfranchising peasants in the Kingdom of Poland , which was carried out in 1864 under the tsar's decree [3] . In 1917 the sculpture was removed.

I can agree that gentry`s oppression of peasants for so many centuries was one of the biggest mistakes in Polish history.
That is why I wrote:

@pawian

In all my years it never occurred to me that the 1861 emancipation reform also had effects in Congress Poland. I'm an idiot.

In part, this was because I had assumed Poland was somehow more enlightened/evolved - and had arrived into Russian possession with some kind of more Finnish configuration.

Very interesting.

In Russia the reform had the effect of creating a massive economic boom lasting decades, but also - in the medium term - serious distress for many former serfs as they ended up landless in many cases, and having to sell their labor to the very same landowners who had oppressed them. Sad as it is, it's not really much worse than the life of an industrial laborer in Britain or Germany - on the other hand. So reform still an all-around success.

In the part of Poland under Russian occupation it took place in 1864 during the January Uprising. The Tsar successfully discouraged Polish peasants from taking part in the Uprising.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uw%C5%82aszczenie_ch%C5%82op%C3%B3w_na_ziemiach_polskich


Contrary to Polish peasants who received the land they cultivated, with animals and all farming equipment. That is why they were so grateful to the Tsar. Amasing!

Anotehr monument in Sandomierz

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Complete bollox, a serf who leased land from a lord had at least 175 days off per year. That's more than Pawian has today.

I found a NYTimes article from the archive, for April 12, 1864.

Source: nytimes.com/1864/04/12/archives/the-czars-proclamation-of-emancipation-in-poland-the-epoch-of.html

There you can see, that already then observers perceived that this was an attempt by the Russian Emperor to prevent the Polish peasantry from rallying behind the aristocracy (although obviously tied to the reform in Russia, three years prior).

Excerpt:

The Emperor, in this great and wise measure, has struck the mortal blow to the Polish Revolution. He has met revolution by a counter-revolution. He has liberated Poland. He has withdrawn the Polish struggle from the field of European sympathies. The millions who, on the 15th of April, shall stand up freemen, are so many supporters of the Russian Government, and pledges of its continuance in Poland. The Polish aristocracy are attacked in the house of their friends.

A similar thought process was in operation in Prussia and Austria, it seems. Each despot was competing with the other in how much freedom they could grant their Poles. In this context, it is no surprise that Polish peasants didn't really give two sh!ts about what their national "elite" wanted from them. Every single occupier was offering better terms than their ancient masters.

Here's another interesting excerpt from the 1864 article:

On the 15th of April, by a recent ukase of the Czar, every serf in Russian Poland is to be at once and forever set free from all bondage. He is to own the cottage and the plot of ground which he has been occupying, his time and labor are to be his own, and he is liberated from all claims to service and obligations of labor which his master may have possessed over him. For this great emancipation, he has only to pay to the Government a tax, by which "loyal masters" are to be remunerated. More than this, the Polish serf is to become at once a self-governing citizen. He is to elect his own village officials, his mayor, and sheriff, and justice of the peace -- a privilege which Prussia has never yet granted to the Prussian Poles.

You are probably mixing different partitions and times as well. :):):) . We are talking about Poland under Russian, not German or Austrian occupation, at the time of the Tsar`s decree of abolishing serfdom in 1864. Consult your sources again and get some facts straight. :):):)

An additional burden on Russian Poles (peasants), that was not suffered by Austrian or Prussian Poles, was compulsive service in the Imperial Army. For those that don't understand what service in the Russian military entailed, here's some numbers from Wikipedia:

In 1736 it [duration of service] was reduced to 25 years, with one male member of each family excluded from managing its property. In 1834 it was reduced to 20 years plus five years in the reserve, and in 1855 to 12 years plus three years of reserve liability

Given that most guys would be nearly dead by 50, it meant serving your entire life in the army.

@Alien

After the Congress of Vienna, Russia controlled 82% of the pre-1772 Commonwealth. So when discussing liberation of Polish serfs, it makes the most sense to discuss Russian-controlled Poland. In Prussia serfdom was abolished in 1807 (but Prussia administered its Poles as a simple territorial unit, Posen). In Austria in 1848. However, this affected only a minority of Poles.

After some thought, I think I'm ready to chip in my 50 cents re: greatest mistakes in Polish history.

The greatest mistake in Polish history has been trying to colonize Ukraine. Why?

1) It overstretched Polish resources, and exposed it to distant threats it would otherwise be insulated from (Tatars, Ottomans).

2) Over centuries of investment, return on investment amounted to zero - despite proclamations of "systemic rape" of resources by the Ukrainians. Whatever money the Polish taxman managed to extract from Ukraine was immediately reinvested in security.

3) Being involved with the Ukrainians ultimately prevented Poland from focusing on Sweden, which led to disastrous consequences - some of them, still visible today.

4) Between the Khmelnitsky Uprising, and the Wolyn Massacre - Ukrainians have killed in excess of 1.5M Poles. Some brotherhood that is!

5) Ukraine acts as a constant prize over which Poland and Russia squabble. In effect, Ukraine has prevented the development of Russo-Polish relations for 400 years, something that is undeniably to the disadvantage of both countries - economically and diplomatically.

@Bobko
I'm glad you at least acknowledge the existence of Ukraine.

@Alien

I have no issue with geographic nomenclature.

.....to acknowledge the existence of Ukraine as an independent country?

@Alien

Ehrm... also not an issue? It is an observable fact. We may be trying to give a little trim to its existing borders, but I'm sure that even after this exercise there will be an independent state of Ukraine (hopefully one where all the Austrian and Polish Ukrainians are gathered. They're poor, stupid, and aggressive and thus will make wonderful neighbors to Poland).

Sovereignty, and how one defines it - that's a different question.

Ha,ha, I would prefer Ukraine with a big bread, reaching beyond the Crimea.

beard

Not only peasants. The plan for the impressment into the Russian army of young gentry and intelligentsia from patriotic families was the direct cause of the outbreak of the January Uprising 1863.


In all cases except the treatment of peasants by Polish szlachta which was horrendous and for which they paid dearly later on.


:):):) Funny you are mentioning Ukraine to suit your current propaganda agenda needs about Russ-Ukrainian war.
It wasn`t only Ukraine, also today`s Lithuania and Belarus were subject to Polish expansion in the East. Poland proper allied with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 15th century, gradually polonised the Lithuanian elites and defended the Duchy against Moscovians and Tatars. In result, Poles started associating the Duchy`s territory with Poland.

The Duchy encompassed a gigantic area in Eastern Europe.

Poland on the left, Lithuania on the right

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