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Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński.


kondzior 8 | 914    
13 Feb 2012  #31
Higher values, my toe. If he got any guts, he'd fought with the gun in his hands. Fighting for your country, by hiding in the shadows, and taking money from the people who would happily nuked your homeland, is like killing people in order to save them.
PennBoy 77 | 2,440    
13 Feb 2012  #32
Not very surprising, but nonetheless interesting is how many people base their belief system and general worldly knowledge on facts that end with "But, I thought"...

wtf are you talking about? where'd you come from?? dude I'm sure you've heard this Polish saying before załóż sobie majtki na leb i pobiegaj po rynku
pantsless 1 | 267    
13 Feb 2012  #33
Oh. It was that complicated. Sorry. I'll break it down. What kind of blockhead do you have to be to think that Nazi's were anti-religious. One of their crusading propoganda highlights was us the god fearing vs the godless Red bastards, i.e., doing God's work. Starting to ring any bells? Probably not. So, my point being that you got this kind of really important fact wrong, a lot of your other "facts" on how the world works are probably pretty wrong

Btw never heard that one before, in fact it sounds like you got it wrong, it goes: pobiegaj po rynku gola dupa. No ale coz, nie kazdy potrafi zablysnac.

Meh, as for this post being relevant. Well, with turncoats and traitors, besides polnonius who's so bent on oaths he must have had 10 divorces, it's quite obvious it really depends on which side you're on, doesn't it.

But I'm sure you all consider Daniel Ellsberg, "Deep Throat", Bradley Manning, or Golitsyn to be traitors as well.
Barney 14 | 1,472    
13 Feb 2012  #34
Honest question: What is the selection / vetting process to become an officer in a conscript army?

They are professional soldiers from military colleges, military students in civilian universities and NCOs who have risen through the ranks.

There are certain professions in Poland that grant officer status if called up. I know this is true for the Navy but not sure about other branches of the armed forces I supposed they are covered by the reserve force.

Professional armies are sometimes called mercenary armies usually by communists and non regular forces.
PennBoy 77 | 2,440    
13 Feb 2012  #35
blockhead do you have to be to think that Nazi's were anti-religious

U call an Occlut or belief in some Nordic mythical being a religion???? That sounds like old Slavs worshiping the waterfall or a rock!
isthatu2 4 | 2,710    
14 Feb 2012  #36
U call an Occlut or belief in some Nordic mythical being a religion????

Dont bother, the guy is a plum. Gitler hated religion,but,being a sometimes pragmatic psychopath he saw the value in the propaganda of a "Christian " Army (Gott Mit Uns....) fighting godless Communists.

Nazi,ie SS and Party Weddings etc were all *atheist* ,mock pagan ceremonies. The whole Nazi ethos was to strive for a pre christian Germanic "ideal" hence resurecting the ancient germanic Hooked Cross ( not copied from the Hindu version unlike every second rate History channel doc' will insist.). It just happened that Papal and Nazi policy were fellow travellers at that point,anti communist and anti jew,once the war was over documents and empirical evidence make it clear that the catholic and various Protestant churches in the Reich were going to be the next targets.

There are certain professions in Poland that grant officer status if called up. I know this is true for the Navy but not sure about other branches of the armed forces I supposed they are covered by the reserve force.

A good qualification in a technical/mechanical line will get you in as a Warrent Officer.
Barney 14 | 1,472    
14 Feb 2012  #37
It just happened that Papal and Nazi policy were fellow travellers at that point,anti communist and anti jew,once the war was over documents and empirical evidence make it clear that the catholic and various Protestant churches in the Reich were going to be the next targets.

The Catholic Church certainly knew the way it was going to go before the "Split" in 1936. Their previous collaboration can be compared to the present scandal over child rapist priests; protect the institution not the faith. Reformed churches had a much more principled approach in general.
OP Polonius3 1,007 | 12,507    
14 Feb 2012  #38
My country's essential special services naturally had to foot the bill to provide security, safe haven and protection. Even so Kukliński's two sons both died in mysterious circumstances, suggesting that no place was too remote or sufficiently clandestine for the long

arm of the KGB to reach. Any blow levelled agaisnt the Soviet-installed PRL puppet state and its Polish-speaking mercenary traitors (Bierut, Gomułka, Gierek, Jaruzelski, etc.) doing the Kremlin's bidding is an act of patriotism. Bloiwng up the hall where the Polish secret police were planning a meet-up or sdplattering the Dzierżyński monument to Bloody Felix with red paint was an act of patriotism, not vandalism.
peterweg 36 | 2,324    
14 Feb 2012  #39
An oath is an oath. No ifs or buts.

Not true. International Law makes it quite clear that following orders is no defense if those orders are illegal. Breaking an oath to a proxy of an occupying power can be justified.
OP Polonius3 1,007 | 12,507    
14 Feb 2012  #40
a proxy of an occupying po

That formulation really hits the nail on the head. Bravo!
Harry    
14 Feb 2012  #41
My country's essential special services

Interesting that you refer to a country other than Poland as being your country.

Polish-speaking mercenary traitors (Bierut, Gomułka, Gierek, Jaruzelski, etc.)

Poles, actually, not just Polish-speakers. And Poles who did far more for Poland than you have ever done or will ever do.
JonnyM 12 | 2,629    
14 Feb 2012  #42
Polish-speaking

Poles.

if those orders are illegal. Breaking an oath to a proxy of an occupying power

His oath wasn't illegal, nor were any orders he received and his country wasn't occupied. Kuklinski was a traitor no matter how you try to dress up his treason.
Sasha 2 | 1,083    
14 Feb 2012  #43
Polish-speaking mercenary traitors

Is it like some Russians trying to insist that Putin is not Russian? :)
Foreigner4 12 | 1,777    
14 Feb 2012  #44
There is however a universal principal that a soldier does not betray his vow. Ever

Any soldier? For any cause? Regardless if his beliefs changed? Regardless of anything?

Life is so simple for some; why do I make mine so complicated by thinking?
Sasha 2 | 1,083    
14 Feb 2012  #45
why do I make mine so complicated by thinking?

Possibly because you're not a soldier.
JonnyM 12 | 2,629    
14 Feb 2012  #46
Any soldier?

Only the ones who end up in a Court Martial.

For any cause? Regardless if his beliefs changed? Regardless of anything?

Like Bradley Manning?

Life is so simple for some;

An oath is simple. Keep it or break your word of honour.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,777    
14 Feb 2012  #47
An oath is simple. Keep it or break your word of honour.

Ah yes, let us bask in the glory we allot for the Nazi soldiers who would not break their word of honour in all their endeavors, for Soviet troops who would not break their word of honour when choosing to inflict more and more brutality on Poles, for American soldiers who won't shun the burden of dropping ordinances where ever they're commanded (civilians be damned), and for any terrorist who chooses to bring chaos upon civilians as they keep their sacred alongside their Israeli counterparts-choosing to bulldoze and execute innocent but unfortunately not Jewish families in their homes....honour indeed.
JonnyM 12 | 2,629    
14 Feb 2012  #48
let us bask in the glory we allot for the Nazi soldiers

No. The only 'basking' is in wrong and right. Poland was neither Nazi Germany (why do denizens of the internet always mention that when they pick an argument and are losing it?) nor the Soviet Union. And Kuklinski gave his country's secrets to her enemies. This did not go unrewarded by them..
OP Polonius3 1,007 | 12,507    
14 Feb 2012  #49
Yes, they have done more to keep Poland in Soivet subjugation than any of us have, that's for sure. Gierek tried to pull the wool over Poles' eyes by sweetening things with Pepsi, Marlboro and Berliet buses, but it was he who enshriend a permanent pledge of allegiance to Moscow in the new Prl-ian constitution.
Ironside 47 | 9,109    
14 Feb 2012  #50
Poles, actually, not just Polish-speakers. And Poles who did far more for Poland than you have ever done or will ever do.

Bierunt wasn't Polish.
And rest of them traitors !
Harry    
14 Feb 2012  #51
Bierunt wasn't Polish.

Born in Poland to two Polish parents: he was Polish, end of story.
Ironside 47 | 9,109    
14 Feb 2012  #52
Born in Poland

Would you like me to point out what country he was born in and what country he was citizen of?
I can play your game too!
Seriously Harry you are in no position to say who was and who wasn't Polish unless you are Polish yourself and you are not - end of!
Harry    
14 Feb 2012  #53
Would like me to point out what country he was born in and what country he was citizen ?

OK, so to you neither Marie Curie (not born in Poland, never had Polish citizenship) nor Frederic Chopin were Polish (neither parent Polish, had French citizenship). Seems a pity that you prefer to lose two of the greatest Poles than admit that Bierut was most certainly a Pole but it's not such a surprise really.
Ironside 47 | 9,109    
14 Feb 2012  #54
See, Harry that is the reason you should have never take upon yourself to determine who is and who isn't Polish.
You just don't know.
Harry    
14 Feb 2012  #55
I know that we're now to far from the topic for me to continue on that thread.

Does anybody know if Kuklinski took US citizenship?
boletus 30 | 1,367    
14 Feb 2012  #56
JohnnM, you are not serious and you do not really believe in what you are saying, are you? I bet, given other circumstances, you would be equally hotly defending and promoting the opposite point of view. I like this idea of Ironside to quote the military oaths. Here is a little reality check for you, kiddo:

Let me translate for you the content of the military oath of the Polish People's Army, enacted on November 22, 1952 (Official Journal of December 1, 1952 - Dz.U.52.46.310). This is the oath, which the soldier Kukliński had to take, along many generations of conscripts - until June 1988, when the most shameful parts of the oath have been removed or slightly mitigated. Let me remind you that no one, medically qualified, could possibly refuse serving in the Polish army when summoned. The alternative was jail. Read and reflect on how anyone with a bit of brains could possibly take this oath seriously. I took it too, with my fingers crossed behind my back. Go then an brag how you would valiantly oppose the commies, or something, in my place.

I, the citizen of the Polish People's Republic, standing in the ranks of the Polish Army, swear to the Polish Nation to be an honest, disciplined, courageous and vigilant soldier, to exactly follow the orders of my superiors and the provisions of the regulations, to closely keep military and state secrets, and to never stain the honour and dignity of Polish soldier.

I swear to serve the country with all my strength, to steadfastly defend the rights of working people, enshrined in the Constitution, to firmly stand on guard of people's authority, to remain faithful to the Government of the Polish People's Republic. I swear to unwaveringly guard the freedom, independence and borders of the Polish People's Republic against pursuits of imperialism, to adamantly stand on guard of peace, in a brotherly alliance with the Soviet Army and other allied armies, and, if necessary, sparing no blood, no life to fight valiantly in defence of the Fatherland, for the sacred cause of independence, freedom and happiness of the people. If I break this solemn oath of fidelity to my Fatherland, let the stern hand of peoples' justice reaches me.


I do not want to convert this topic to the reality check of early years following 1952, when the "stern hand of peoples' justice" still carried more than just an empty threat. So let me quote just one expression: Each provocateur or lunatic who dares to raise his hand against the people's authority, be sure that his hand will be chopped off by the people's government! - Cyrankiewicz, 1956
Foreigner4 12 | 1,777    
14 Feb 2012  #57
No. The only 'basking' is in wrong and right

and my question for you is if you think it is wrong or if you think it is right to break an oath if keeping it would go against your conscience (regardless of your thinking at the time of the oath)?
Harry    
14 Feb 2012  #58
Here is another oath Kuklinski would have taken:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

Renouncing all allegiance to Poland is the mark of a patriot?
Foreigner4 12 | 1,777    
14 Feb 2012  #59
*That was a binary set Harry (yes/no right/wrong). If you care to answer them in binary fashion then please feel free to draw conclusions or parallels to the individual after that. It pollutes the question I'm driving at otherwise.

*edit
Bzibzioh    
14 Feb 2012  #60
Renouncing all allegiance to Poland is the mark of a patriot?

Changing the topic to something more convenient? Such a fresh approach, I'm sure it was never tried before.



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