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Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński.



delphiandomine 87 | 15,787    
12 Sep 2012  #121

And why are those acts in law still legal now?

Much of them aren't. But you cannot punish someone for something that wasn't illegal at the time.

Because in Poland, as opposed to the Czech Republic where the democratic state passed legislation ruling the Communist state to have been an illegal entity devoid of legal capacity, the deal was that the Commies were half-good guys who needed a helping hand in the future.

I'm sure you would've done exactly the same thing had you been in the same position in 1989. It's easy to pretend that you're some sort of anti-Communist hero when you weren't there.

But why did the Polish "democratic" opposition deal so sweetly with the Communists?

Perhaps because Walesa et al were good Catholics who believed in forgiveness over revenge? If Poland so badly wants to be the Christ of Nations, then she must behave like Christ. And she did.

The Commies - such as Adam Michnik. Father Commie, mother Commie, brother a Stalinist mass murderer, called General Kiszczak honourable, was always very pally with leading Commies, travelled round Europe without restrictions and stayed in consular accommodation ... but he wasn't a plant!

Oh, yet again with the PiS conspiracy theories. Perhaps you'd be better writing these on Nasza Klasa.

Or do we need to remind you yet again that daddy duck just so happened to be a traitor of the worst kind?


sofijufka 2 | 191    
12 Sep 2012  #122

You mean out of charity from the PRL state?

no, it wasn't charity, PRL state often practised carrot and stick approach - it was easier where citiziens were working for free at rebuilding of ruined cities, than to pay for rebuilding.
Varsovian 93 | 638    
12 Sep 2012  #123

Weird logic, Delphi.
Acts that were imposed by a regime imposed by force should be ruled illegal. They were in the Czech Republic where the opposition took over after the fall of Communism. In Poland the Communists carried on. You are an apologist for them and their acts. And puerile remarks about ducks reflect on the level of training you have received to do your job.

I wasn't there - true. My only anti-Communist activity came at an illegal demo in 1988. Attended by Michnik, who had no hassle from ZOMO. Unlike me.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
12 Sep 2012  #124

You are an apologist for them and their acts.

You mean the acts of the 10% of adult Poles who were in the communist party and the countless millions more who chose to make their living by supporting the communist state?
sofijufka 2 | 191    
12 Sep 2012  #125

you think, all of them ought to commit suicide?
delphiandomine 87 | 15,787    
12 Sep 2012  #126

no, it wasn't charity, PRL state often practised carrot and stick approach - it was easier where citiziens were working for free at rebuilding of ruined cities, than to pay for rebuilding.

Not bad. Do the State's work and (if you were reliable) - get a free flat out of it.

Acts that were imposed by a regime imposed by force should be ruled illegal.

Except you forget that a considerable amount of Poles embraced the regime to begin with.

In Poland the Communists carried on.

True. The leader of the Opposition's father was a traitor and a Communist, after all.

And puerile remarks about ducks reflect on the level of training you have received to do your job.

I think we all know that the reason why Jaroslaw is so virulently anti-Communist is because he's ashamed of all the grace, favours and protection he received from his father.

You are an apologist for them and their acts.

No, I'm someone who believes in the Christian doctrine of forgiveness.

Attended by Michnik, who had no hassle from ZOMO. Unlike me.

With all fairness, hassling a foreigner (who could be easily deported) makes far more sense than an annoying pain like Michnik who would embarrass the PZPR at every opportunity. Hassle Michnik and he'll make sure everyone knows - hassle some foreigner and no-one really cares less.

You mean the acts of the 10% of adult Poles who were in the communist party and the countless millions more who chose to make their living by supporting the communist state?

I actually wonder how many people could truthfully claim that they never received any support from the Communist state?
sofijufka 2 | 191    
12 Sep 2012  #127

sofijufka: no, it wasn't charity, PRL state often practised carrot and stick approach - it was easier where citiziens were working for free at rebuilding of ruined cities, than to pay for rebuilding.Not bad. Do the State's work and (if you were reliable) - get a free flat out of it.

not get - it was a kind of lease/tenancy. Kaczyńskis bought this flat in year 1981.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,787    
12 Sep 2012  #128

But we all know that leases in PRL times were more or less perpetual anyway, hence the presence of many elderly people in city centres occupying good flats in good locations.

Interesting that they bought the flat in 1981, too.
sofijufka 2 | 191    
12 Sep 2012  #129

yea, you are right, but one can't sell such a flat, and member of family couldn't inherit it [especially if they don't live here]

Interesting that they bought the flat in 1981, too.

why? My landlady bought her flat in the same year - the town council was more flexible then...
cassandra 1 | 40    
12 Sep 2012  #130

I think we all know that the reason why Jaroslaw is so virulently anti-Communist is because he's ashamed of all the grace, favours and protection he received from his father.

Or perhaps angry and felt segregated from the real lives of his fellow citizens?
Or maybe a psychological response...like resentment of his Father for the childhood where he was constantly watched?
Or perhaps he had an early romantic interest that was not allowed?
Many times there are cloistered motives for our adult actions, the more virulent the reaction, the more emotionally attached to the issue, usually.
Do you think his Father would have protected him if these thoughts were expressed at home? Probably not...so maybe he grew up feeling unsafe...that even his own Father would harm him?

Just asking folks, i've learned there are often hidden reasons for actions , sometimes unclear...sometimes very clear.
delphiandomine 87 | 15,787    
12 Sep 2012  #131

Or perhaps he had an early romantic interest that was not allowed?

Could be. His homosexuality is an open secret, after all.

Do you think his Father would have protected him if these thoughts were expressed at home? Probably not...so maybe he grew up feeling unsafe...that even his own Father would harm him?

His brother was imprisoned briefly and then released, so it must be assumed that his father was doing the right thing for his children. Jaroslaw's lack of imprisonment is attributed to one of two things - daddy's protection, or he just wasn't there.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
12 Sep 2012  #132

I think we all know that the reason why Jaroslaw is so virulently anti-Communist is because he's ashamed of all the grace, favours and protection he received from his father.

As opposed to Adam Michnik, whose brother's father was murdered by the communists.
cassandra 1 | 40    
12 Sep 2012  #133

this confuses me, it would have been his Father also? or his Brother in law? or step Father?
sofijufka 2 | 191    
12 Sep 2012  #134

As opposed to Adam Michnik, whose brother's father was murdered by the communists.

communists are queer people. One of my mother's friend [a communist] was send at Siberia by soviets, her child died from malnutricion, her husband was shot - and she was a commmie till her death...
cassandra 1 | 40    
13 Sep 2012  #135

As opposed to Adam Michnik, whose brother's father was murdered by the communists

Finally had time to look into that and understand ;) Sorry don't like showing my foolishness ;)
Zionism has often been compared to communism...the interdependant society, problem is someone always wants to live better than the rest.
Still...interesting what your told in family...but then i've lived in the South for a long while...loud political discussions aren't as common here as amoungst my own, occassionally (like now) it makes me feel deprived.
carolgreen943 2 | 5    
13 Sep 2012  #136

a spy is the exact antithesis of heroism.
Varsovian 93 | 638    
13 Sep 2012  #137

Von Staufenberg was an anti-hero too, Hitler was the legal leader of Nazi Germany - the Nazis were big on legitimacy after all.
cassandra 1 | 40    
15 Sep 2012  #138

Perhaps because Walesa et al were good Catholics who believed in forgiveness over revenge? If Poland so badly wants to be the Christ of Nations, then she must behave like Christ. And she did.

Nicely said

a spy is the exact antithesis of heroism.

not necessarily, it's a matter of perpsective...and when innocent lives (general population) are at risk.......
i find it hard to place blame for spying...especailly when it saved lives.
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,575    
22 Sep 2012  #139

I see you don't have too good a grasp of recent Polish hstiory. Wałęsa is hardlly the epitome of forgiveness. On the contrary he personifies pettiness, self-interest and bearing grudges and has never forgiven those ho disagreed with him including his former Solidarity comrades Andrzej Gwiazda, the late Anna Walentynowicz, the Wyszkowski chap, the Kaczyńskis and all the others who did not support his June1992 parliamentary coup (check out the docuemntary 'Nocna zmiana'.). It was that one act that has polarised Poland's political stage to this day, wasting untold time, effort, money and energy on petty feuding.
cassandra 1 | 40    
22 Sep 2012  #140

Wałęsa

He successfully negotiated the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Polish soil and won a substantial reduction in Poland's foreign debts.
This i know, it is not to the detail of political skirmishing you are aware of; however this is the good, can you agree?
OP Polonius3 1,019 | 12,575    
22 Sep 2012  #141

I certainly do not deny Wałęsa his place in history. He happened to be at the right time and the right place. It was a close call. Had he jumped over the fence a bit later, who knows how things would have worked. But he was always too self-centred and self-conscious. A poltiican should be thick-skinned, but the moment someone criticses him he becomes an enemy for life. Too little flexibility for a politician.

BTW, have you watched 'Nocna zmiana'? It must be on the net somewhere. No one episode has polarised and poisoned the Polish poltical scene more.
cassandra 1 | 40    
24 Sep 2012  #142

BTW, have you watched 'Nocna zmiana'

It was a little hard for me to follow because my Polish is sparse....however body language and facial expressions..general attitude would indicate that there is a high degree of 'personality' to Wałęsa, must agree there.

Yes i will do more research, again this is why i joined the forum...to learn, a teacher must always be willing to learn ;)
You'll be happy to know Polish History is not what i teach ;) it is just my personal desire to learn more about the veiwpoints of Poles within Poland.
maniak677 1 | 14    
17 Feb 2014  #143

Hero or traitor sometimes someone can be both at the same time. Poland was a country that was a puppet state but it still needed to function so there were oaths and loyalties to run this country albeit ones that were made under foreign control. Polish politicians and the army had to run a delicate operation not ******* off the Soviets too much that they took over whilst standing up for what they wanted Poland to be. The judgements on how much they went one way or another have been played out for since 89 and will continue to do so. Should you stay and work within the system and be called a collaborator or 'komuch', abandon the country to its fate and leave or do a bit of both like Kuklinski? A person of pure principle probably would not have achieved much in PRL.




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