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Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński.


Polonius3 987 | 11,666    
13 Feb 2012  #1

Some post-commie scumballs have again defaced the Kraków memorial to the First Polish Officer in NATO, Col. Ryszard Kukliński who supplied American wtih the Evil Empire's secret plans. I doubt if Michnik was actually involved physically, but it was his rag that has called Kukliński a traitor and Jaruzelski a hero, and apparently there are those in Poland who actually believe the crapola Gazeta Wybiórcza publiishes..Apparently Michnik has never heard of Konrad Wallenrod.


JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
13 Feb 2012  #2

Kukliński a traitor

If the cap fits. Perhaps you think Kim Philby and the Julius Rosenberg weren't traitors either.

I doubt if Michnik was actually involved physically

At least you've got one part of your diatribe right.

Apparently Michnik has never heard of Konrad Wallenrod.

I doubt that.
Ironside 42 | 7,681    
13 Feb 2012  #3

Some post-commie scumballs

Thats about right !
OP Polonius3 987 | 11,666    
13 Feb 2012  #4

Workiing against the enemies of your country's freedom, in this case the Soviet-installed PRL regime, is not tresason. It is heroism!
kondzior 7 | 882    
13 Feb 2012  #5

Being a spy is the exact antithesis of heroism.
Ironside 42 | 7,681    
13 Feb 2012  #6

Really ? What is your definition of heroism?
JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
13 Feb 2012  #7

The guy took a solemn oath. Then broke it.
Ironside 42 | 7,681    
13 Feb 2012  #8

So he was a traitor to the traitors. He didn't betrayed Poland or Poles. Jaruzelski and Kiszczak did and they are traitors.

Traitor to PRL it is nothing to be ashame of!
JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
13 Feb 2012  #9

An oath is an oath. No ifs or buts.
Harry 67 | 12,861    
13 Feb 2012  #10

It is heroism!

Poles disagree with you: more Poles consider Kuklinski to be a traitor than consider him a hero.
Ironside 42 | 7,681    
13 Feb 2012  #11

An oath is an oath. No ifs or buts.

There is not universal traitor's concept.
He was the traitor to PRL - good !

Poles disagree with you: more Poles consider Kuklinski to be a traitor than consider him a hero.

Even if that were true it doesn't make it so!
JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
13 Feb 2012  #12

There is however a universal principal that a soldier does not betray his vow. Ever.
Ironside 42 | 7,681    
13 Feb 2012  #13

Ever.

Thats what they say but in a real life its happens often enough.
JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
13 Feb 2012  #14

And such people are regarded as traitors and punished. Bradley Manning probably thought he was doing the right thing too, as did Burgess & Maclean, Rosenberg etc.
Ironside 42 | 7,681    
13 Feb 2012  #15

von Stauffenberg ....
I see your point but I Disagree
Poles too often has been faced with the bad choices only
delphiandomine 57 | 15,090    
13 Feb 2012  #16

There is however a universal principal that a soldier does not betray his vow. Ever.

Especially as the Polish Army was well regarded all the way through to 1981.
Ironside 42 | 7,681    
13 Feb 2012  #17

the Polish Army w

Soviet Army ! Polish branch of the Red Army
JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
13 Feb 2012  #18

Very different. And even if it hadn't been, that is no excuse to betray his country or his comrades.

Von Stauffenberg, by the way was a very different kettle of fish.
ShawnH 8 | 1,507    
13 Feb 2012  #19

There is however a universal principal that a soldier does not betray his vow. Ever.

I can see that being moreso true in a volunteer army vs. conscript.

Honest question: What is the selection / vetting process to become an officer in a conscript army?
OP Polonius3 987 | 11,666    
13 Feb 2012  #20

PRL was a captive nation, an illicit, bastard, puppet state so anyone who opposed it was a hero.
JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
13 Feb 2012  #21

And it was the state that Kuklinski swore his solemn oath to. End of.
boletus 30 | 1,367    
13 Feb 2012  #22

There is however a universal principal that a soldier does not betray his vow. Ever.

European history provides quite a few examples when a professional mercenary's vow was broken by condottieri at will. Mamertines anyone? Machiavelli describes many such cases: desertion, joining forces with enemy, switching sides.

I vaguely remember mercenary betrayals taking place during wars of Charles the Bold, Duke of Burgundy against Lorraine and Suisse, and his death at Nancy.

Polish allies at times: Crimean Tatars and Cossacks were also prone to betrayal.

General Patrick Gordon, a venerated Scottish mercenary, after already switching sides from the Polish to the Muscovite one (honourably though), was almost given a deadly blow to his division during 1695 campaign against Turks, because a German engineer betrayed to Turks the weak points of the Muscovite lines.

So it looks that there is a difference between romantic theory and practice.
JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
13 Feb 2012  #23

Kuklinski wasn't a mercenary. He was an officer in the army of his country who betrayed his vow.

There are indeed many such examples. Most of them treason.
Ironside 42 | 7,681    
13 Feb 2012  #24

Von Stauffenberg, by the way was a very different kettle of fish.

Really ? he took an oath no buts, no ifs !
JonnyM 12 | 2,634    
13 Feb 2012  #25

And the oath he took was to Germany. Not to a madman. Simple as.
Ironside 42 | 7,681    
13 Feb 2012  #26

Wehrmacht oath

Die Vereidigung der Wehrmacht auf Adolf Hitler, 2.8.1934

"Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen."

The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934

"I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath
."
PennBoy 77 | 2,442    
13 Feb 2012  #27

I swear by God

By God? I thought The Nazis denounced religion like the Soviets did.
OP Polonius3 987 | 11,666    
13 Feb 2012  #28

Apparently all those PF-ers who are tripping over thermselves trying to show how sacred and iniviolable an oath or vow is to be are just doing so because they enjoy polemics. Many of the very same people hypocitically let off the hook and make excuses for the bastards who take an oath and then break it for convnience sake to get divorced. At least Kukliński was motivated by higher values, the freeedom of his homeland, and was willing to put himself and his familyat jeopardy to serve that cause.
delphiandomine 57 | 15,090    
13 Feb 2012  #29

At least Kukliński was motivated by higher values, the freeedom of his homeland, and was willing to put himself and his familyat jeopardy to serve that cause.

Are you sure he wasn't motivated by a hell of a lot of cash?

As a high profile turncoat, he certainly would have enjoyed considerable....financial privilege. Betraying the Polish army and the legitimate Polish state for a few dollars is deplorable.
pantsless 1 | 267    
13 Feb 2012  #30

By God? I thought The Nazis denounced religion like the Soviets did.

Not very surprising, but nonetheless interesting is how many people base their belief system and general worldly knowledge on facts that end with "But, I thought"...

Dare to take the next step?



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