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So called "inconvenient parts" of Polish history - what do you think?


OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
16 Jun 2011 #91
Half a million was on the lower end of the estimates, and you know that.

Yes but German's were repulsed from Baltic states, Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia and finally Poland. Do you those 500 000 death want to blame on Poles? Fine, where is your prove ?

The fact is that Germans count their death summarily. It doesn't say for example whatever death occurred in 1944 or 1945 or 1946, majority of killed were happened during the war.

And that case would not stand a chance in court !
Erica that lovely lady forgot conveniently that she was conceived and spend first years of her life spend in the apartment stolen from a Polish owner who was kick out and deported if not killed. Hypocrite !

As for using incorrect nomenclature, your link only shows that present definition is being challenged but it has no bearing on the cases from the past!
PolskiMoc 4 | 324
16 Jun 2011 #92
So we should blame Poland for allowing the USSR to exist. What an original version of history you tell!

Poles attacked Soviets.

If Poles attacked the Soviets then how did Poles help to allow the USSR to exist?

The Soviets SUED for a cease fire & well the cease fire during the Polish Soviet war was acknowledged?

By who? Westerners?

the same Westerners that helped create & expand the Soviet Union?

You are so smart man. You seem to have such a great level of understanding. It is like you understand everything. Yeah okay. It is not like you have a severe lack of intellect or anything like that.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
16 Jun 2011 #93
Yes, rounding up Jews and packing them into cattle trucks off to the death camps was a perfectly acceptable thing to do. Oh, sorry, yet another inconvenient part of Polish history....

Sure Harry any prove ? eh? lies and lies ?
rounding up ? they were already in ghettos if so packing and rounding were being done by Jewish police !

Deny, deny, deny, and keep denying!

Any Poles working for Soviets was a traitor, so what your issue Harry ? Deny what exactly ? What is that you want? but really.... no more BS!

Yes & Pilsudski didn't want Poland & Fran

listen if you are really polish shut your trap!
PolskiMoc 4 | 324
16 Jun 2011 #94
PolskiMoc: Yes & Pilsudski didn't want Poland & Fran
listen if you are really polish shut your trap!

Why should i shut my trap? If Poland & France had attacked Nazis in 1933 there would be no WW2.

Pilsudski is a hero.

Yes, rounding up Jews and packing them into cattle trucks off to the death camps was a perfectly acceptable thing to do. Oh, sorry, yet another inconvenient part of Polish history....

Yes, That is why Thousands of Poles died trying to save the lives of Jews.

It was Germans who packed the Jews up.

You are such a smart person. Everything you say is so smart. I am sure you are not a retard or anything like that.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
16 Jun 2011 #95
Any proof? Oh, sorry, of course not.

Before the WWII Courts in Poland were fully independent !
Marynka11 4 | 675
16 Jun 2011 #96
Well, by continually lying, you pretty much did.

Harry, you behave like some aparatchik and you call me a liar? Knock, knock, reality is calling.

And those Jews were French? Belgian? British? Or were they German?

Oh sorry, I forgot that if you admit that Jews could be German, it'll mean you'd have to concede that Jews could also be Polish.

They could have been anything for all I know. But of course it's too hard for you to comprehend that a Polish person could be ok with a Jew being Polish as well.

Edit:
don't bother to answer. My daily quota for nonsense are out.
TheOther 5 | 3,711
16 Jun 2011 #97
Do you those 500 000 death want to blame on Poles?

You cannot deny the fact that there was a large number of casualties amongst German civilians after the end of the war. Somebody was responsible for these deaths, and Poland is one of the parties that were directly involved.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
16 Jun 2011 #98
You cannot deny the fact that there was a large number of casualties amongst German civilians after the end of the war.

A large number of casualties amongst German civilians is an enigmatic expression which tell us exactly nothing !
After the end of the war - that better!
Are you in possession of sources that can tell us actual number of killed after the war? That would be basics on which we could discus further , otherwise is only stipulation.

What I would like to see, is the number of German civilians killed after the war in Poland.

Yes, there were rapes, robbery's and sometimes killings of deportees done by some demoralized by the war Poles.
Nothing near 500 000 , though!
As I said that number is a summary of all death from the territories they were being deported. Which means that includes killed during the war as well.

Not too worry, as soon as there will be credible book on the subject. I will read that and accept 5, 50, 500 or 5000 victims of Poles - no bother! The point is I will not accept stipulations and estimations based on tin air!
sobieski 107 | 2,128
16 Jun 2011 #99
sobieski:
The Świętokrzyżka brigade maybe?

They were doing a good job !

You mean like actively collaborating with the Germans? And preferring killing Jews to fighting the Nazis?
TheOther 5 | 3,711
16 Jun 2011 #100
The point is I will not accept stipulations and estimations based on tin air!

So in essence you are telling me that you will not accept any number or any source, as long as it can't tell you exactly how many Germans were killed, when and where - if possible with a name, photo, eye witness report and accompanying death certificate? Well, I guess we can retire all historians then...
MediaWatch 10 | 945
16 Jun 2011 #101
You mean like actively collaborating with the Germans? And preferring killing Jews to fighting the Nazis?

Do you have evidence of these insinuations of yours?

Or this just more of these troll like "How many times did you beat your wife?" type comments to knock the Poles who fought?
legend 3 | 664
16 Jun 2011 #102
Well done, but I asked you what Britain could have done. I'd like to know precisely where they should have attacked and with precisely what. I look forward to yet more evasion from you.

Here like me try to help... (I think I posted something similar a while back).

Im going to try and be neutral to both you and polskimoc arguments:

First some numbers...

Poland 1939- 1,000,000 (over the course of battle); 250,000(mobilized_week1), 250,000(mobilized_week2), 500,000reserves

Germany: 1939- 1.5 mil (9 panzer divs each with 328 tanks, 8 support battalions and 6 artillery batteries)

France: 1939- 900k plus (5 mil trained)

Britain: 1939- 897,000 men including reserves.
---

During the early stages of the war. Britain dropped flyers, and according to you also bombed ships north of Germany where British folks lost their lives. I would like a source for this.

France moved in slightly to German lands but essentially did nothing.

The problem with the possible scenario was that Britain was further away from Poland and it would not be easy to move troops through and into Germany in a fast enough response.

France were stuck in defense mode with the line on Germanys border and understandably it would take time to move in troops.
---

Im gonna guess any major action would have to be taken first by France. They would send in troops fairly at a moderate rate and would cause some problems to Germanys west coast.

Over time France continues to pour in troops and mechanized equipment. Eventually Britain would surely send troops given some time to assist the French.
At this point German troops would need to be sent from the Polish front to assist the western side where by now the French and British have somewhat overwhelmed the Germans. Poland would perhaps have held on slightly longer (assuming the Soviets did not attack because of France and Britains involvement).

The problem is time would the French and British do significant damage to the western Germany before a good portion of Polish army has been killed/captured?

I guess the more effort and amount of numbers sent against Germany would result in Germany focusing less attention to Poland by now.
---

Just two more things:

Assuming the British did bomb German ships. Why could they not have sent more? Why not attack more significant targets at a larger scale. The Germans attacked people. What would happen if more innocent Germans were being killed. Maybe Hitler would be more pissed off at the west?

And finally this is all speculation. There is not 100% proof of success even if Britain or France had intervened more significantly. It could have helped and lessened the deaths and time of WWII?
OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
17 Jun 2011 #103
So in essence you are telling me that you will not accept any number or any source, as long as it can't tell you exactly how many Germans were killed, when and where - if possible with a name, photo, eye witness report and accompanying death certificate? Well, I guess we can retire all historians then...

Now, don't be absurd. I can accept a reasonable estimation done by professionals.
What I refuse to do is accept numbers which comes from equation :
The Number of civilians before end of the war on certain territories and the number of civilians from those territories after the war, it tells us nothing!

What about the passage of the Red Army, doesn't that account for most of those 500,000 missing ?
You tell me......
So, far you have your theory and I have mine, both plausible, but mine slightly more than yours, eh?
Vincent 9 | 837 Moderator
17 Jun 2011 #104
Please remember this thread is not to be used for name calling and derogatory language towards each other. Failure to discuss the topic of the thread title may lead to the thread being closed permanently. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
Sto Zab 1 | 3
20 Jun 2011 #105
Hang on a minute. Let's get some facts straight, and, as Putin said, "observe the Polish character":

In 1938 Poland divided Czecoslovakia with Germany and Hungary. The invaded area was Teschen, with a population of 230,000 - who did not want to be 'liberated' by the Poles, understandably.

See blogcritics.org/books/article/poland-joined-hitler-in-dismembe ring-czechoslovakia/

To add insult to injury they did it again, with Polish tanks crushing the Prague Uprising in 1968. Czechs don't have much to say to Poles, understandably.

In 1968 all Polish workers were asked to publicly denounce 'Zionism' during the Polish Political Crisis. Almost all the Jews in Poland were expelled. Diplomatic relations with Israel were broken. Israelis don't have a lot of time for Poles.

This followed the post-war pogroms in which Jews attempting to return to their homes were murdered in the streets by Poles:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-war_pogroms_in_Poland and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak%C3%B3w_pogrom

The pretext for the massacres was that Jews were supposedly kidnapping and eating ethnically pure Polish children. Yeah, sure...

Poles today have claimed that "the Holocaust was just retribution for the Jewish killing of Jesus" (9th June 2011)

guardian.co.uk/film/2011/jun/09/claude-lanzmann-shoah-holocaust-documentary/print

Use of the German civilian population remaining within the new Polish borders in 1945 as slave labour:

"In territories that belonged to Poland before the war, Germans were treated even more harshly than in the former German territories.[56] Deprived of any citizen rights, many were used as forced labor prior to their expulsion, sometimes for years, in labor battalions or in labour camps[57][58] such as Glaz, Milecin, Gronowo, Sikawa, Central Labour Camp Jaworzno, Central Labour Camp Potulice, £ambinowice (run by Czesław Gęborski), Zgoda labour camp and others. The death toll was between twenty and fifty percent,[59] and as the guards were not paid regular salary they forcefully extracted their wage from the inmates."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_from_Poland

As you probably know, Germans don't get on too well with Poles.

Despite this..let's take a look at the statistics regarding military service in the Wehrmacht during WWII.

400,000 Poles served in the Nazi Wehrmacht, all involuntarily, so they say. The strength of the British Free Corps, in comparison, was never greater than 27.

"More than 400,000 citizens of the Polish Second Republic served in the Wehrmacht,[1] and some in the Kriegsmarine and Waffen SS."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_from_Poland_during_and_after_World_War_II


A Polish Wehrmacht was planned with the intention to create "Waffen SS Polen". It was started late, in 1944:

'The Polnische Wehrmacht originated in operations "Weiser Adler" and "Berta", supported by Hans Frank, confirmed October 23, 1944 by OKH, and next day by Adolf Hitler. Around 700 soldiers were recruited, carrying German uniforms with tabs reading "In service of German Wehrmacht" ("Im Dienst der Deutschen Wehrmacht") and the tabs in form of hussar wing or Polish white-red flag. Soldier's pay: private 90 zlotys, NCOs 150-210 zlotys. Polnische Wehrmaht was formed in reality in 1944 and the idea was to eventually transform it to in "Waffen SS Polen".'

Previously someone wrote that no Poles were SS members - so Klaus Dylewski for example?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Dylewski

"SS-Obergruppenführer Felix Steiner wrote in his book Die Freiwilligen der Waffen-SS. Idee und Opfergang that he based his organization on the Legionnaires of Józef Piłsudski. According to him, the young Polish patriots and their leader were the ideal form of "kameradenschaft" - a specific union between soldiers and their officers, based on mutual understanding."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_Wehrmacht
Silesianka
26 Jun 2011 #106
- For purpose of enlightment I suggest some reading - Stanislaw Mackiewicz, Historja Polski 1918 - 1939, London 1941, S. 199 ff, but hey, you still are free to claim Wladimir Pawlowski was Austrian, as Austrians are free to claim Hitler was German...

- The latest "cleansing" of Jews in poland took place in 1968 and the poles so far didn"t offer any compensantion for those holocaust survivor"s and descendents they kicked out of the country - want to talk to those people?

- for Polish Concentration camps I cordially invite you to visit Ruda Slaska (amongst other places)

- many Germans didn't flee in panic, they were kicked out by Poles who took over their property (entire libraries can be filled with that info)

Do you think Poland has a brighter future if it keeps blurring it's past into mythological stories rather than facing reality?
OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
26 Jun 2011 #107
free to claim Wladimir Pawlowski was Austrian,

Never heard about him, and given Austrian past he could well be an Austrian.
Even if he wasn't, so what ?

The latest "cleansing" of Jews in poland took place in 1968 and the poles so far didn"t offer any compensantion for those holocaust survivor"s and descendents they kicked out of the country - want to talk to those people?

At last size able number of them should be talk to by an investigator to explain they role they played in soviet regime in Poland.

And nobody kick them out at the gun point, they could stay.
However it is a highly abstractive subject - I don't consider that to be part of the Polish history, rather a history of Poland under Soviet rule.

for Polish Concentration camps I cordially invite you to visit Ruda Slaska (amongst other places)

Well, they were hardly Polish Concentrations camps.

many Germans didn't flee in panic, they were kicked out by Poles who took over their property

Yeah, many didn't and were kicked out - nobody deny it.What is your point ?

There you'd have your polish Nazi.

He would be a German Nazi and Polish Traitor :)

Well, the Nazis, Hitler and all wasn't imposed on Germans by a foreign power, and implemented by a foreign army and bayonets. No foreign army was backing Hitler;s degree's and thugs but German.

so, hahaha in your face :) Get your facts straights first!
Antisemitism a deeply rooted polish thing ?
Hhahah in your face again ! What are you anyway ?

Then talk to former inmates before they pass away. Ruda Slaska was a polish concentration camp (with survival rates close to Ausschwitz) until 1953!

Really ? From 1945 Poland was an Soviet run pupped state, at the same time the biggest Polish heroes were being murdered by soviets - so think twice about calling that camp - Polish !

These were mostly innocent people, so they should get their property back unless they were party members.

They payed for the action of their government. IF you have a beef with the way they had been treated, I suggest you call GB, USA and Russia government's . Because it was decisions of their predecessors, not Poland's.
Silesianka
26 Jun 2011 #108
Ad 1: no Sovjet or German soldiers stood with arms behind those polish students who threw stones at Jews in 1968 - nor were the victims ever offered compensation. Not even to those Jews whose ascendents (polish citizens) were murdered by the Nazis, instead the Poles happily keep their houses and lands till now, because they are the real victims and only did what the german or russians told them...yeah, sure.

Ad Polish antisemitism just one example: The official Ausschwitz tour - I twice took a private guide - takes roughly more than one hour and mentiones jewish victims in just one sentence!!! Instead the guide will keep elaborating about the great suffering of the Poles - it is simply disgusting.

The concentration camp in Ruda Slaska was a) based on what you'd (incorrectly) call polish territory, b) housing German/Roma inmates c) run by Poles, so yes, as even local authorities have admitted - it was a polish KZ, the Russiand kept their own. But naturally, being Polish you revel in the role of the vicimized puppet, Poles love that.

What I am? I am the descendent of a polish resistance officer who ended up in a german concentration camp and who's elder brother was murdered in katyn and I despise people like you who make up history according to their own tastes.

Or close discussions when they become inconvenient -good communist tradition, j'applaude.

And what are you? A 'smartie' who thinks my name is Harry and who thinks it was ok to destroy 1000yrs of history and replace it with socialistic shoe boxes. Yeah, that sounds polish to me...
OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
26 Jun 2011 #109
What I am?

Whatever you are my dear, you are seriously messed up and I don't see any point of discussing history with you of which you obviously do not know much about.

nd who thinks it was ok to destroy 1000yrs of history and replace it with socialistic shoe boxes

Would you like to quote my words where I said that, or admit that you are lying.
That would be proof of your sincerity and I would be willing to correct your erroneous views, if not then you can go and play with yourself for all I care:)
Silesianka
26 Jun 2011 #110
Get a brain.

Your limited education clearly shows in your first post and your competence to discuss history just does not exist. Anywhere.
You apparently visited a Baumschule na Zadupiu.
I so far have discussed with the winner of the Polish National History Contest of 1967 so keep you can keep your (well founded) minority complex to yourself, you just do not know enough to argue decently, that's it.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
26 Jun 2011 #111
Get a brain.

So, you refuse to discus sincerely on clear terms. It means that you are nothing than a troll.
JulietEcho 3 | 100
27 Jun 2011 #112
Please do not lie: Polish people were not eligible to even join the Wehrmacht, only those who had sign up on the Deutsche Volksliste could join the Wehrmacht. No signature, no Wehrmacht.

We'll if you LIE, why wouldnt anyone else?
There were no "signing up" to a Deutsche Volksliste. That would be contradictory with Hitler's race politics. Volkliste was generated by Germans in Generalgubernia after invasion, if you were found on the list you received the letter that you have so many days to report to a commanding unit. If you did not report Wehrmacht came to your door and claimed you, if you still opposed you were imprisoned. There were no signing-up to being German.

Let me guess: you write for living and conclusions you arrive at are always dictated from above?
Palivec - | 380
27 Jun 2011 #113
Ad Polish antisemitism just one example: The official Ausschwitz tour - I twice took a private guide - takes roughly more than one hour and mentiones jewish victims in just one sentence!!! Instead the guide will keep elaborating about the great suffering of the Poles - it is simply disgusting.

I think that's the main reason for todays Polish Anti-Semitism. Poles and Jews are in a victim competition. Both share the same self-image as the biggest victims, and both can't forgive the other side which claims to be the bigger victim.
Silesianka
27 Jun 2011 #114
So, you refuse to discus sincerely on clear terms. It means that you are nothing than a troll.

You so far didn't discuss one single subject, just kept ranting about me a) being Harry b) not knowing polish history.

We're supposed to discuss inconvenient parts of polish history here and that was what I tried.

The only thing you had to say about the 1968 expellation of Jewish holocaust survivors was that that wasn't Poland or Poles, that this crime was comitted by a Sovjet puppet. A comparable reaction of yours can be found with regard to other postings too.

No objective discussion, just sheer and unjustified rejection of everything that doesn't fit in your desired picture of polish history.

With regard to the unlawful annection of Silesia we can put it precisely: the Potsdam treaty of 1945 speaks solely of a temporary administration of this regions by Poland, the full assimilation into the Polish state, the forced poloniazation of remaining Germans, decadelong exploitation without giving a **** about environment or people's health - all these acts were simply unlawful. Even according to Polish law, which demands a certain dilligence in the execution of administrative power. But they knew theymight have to give it back, so they sucked Silesia out like Vlad Tepes.

But why staying with inconvenient history? There is enough inconvenient momentum now for polish people? Why are they such pigs, leaving trails of trash anywhere they go, especially in forests? Why do you morons burn plastics for heating? Why don't you give anything back to the Jews, which were more victims than Poles? Why doesn't the official Ausschwitz-Tour barely contain a wordabout jewish sufferings, which were far greater than the polish?

Answer or troll yourself troll.
Harry
27 Jun 2011 #115
And nobody kick them out at the gun point, they could stay.

And here we have yet another inconvenient part of Polish history: Poles ethnically cleansing Poland. And how surprising to see you dealing with it by simply lying about it.

Well, they were hardly Polish Concentrations camps.

Established at the order of the Polish government, which was entirely composed of Poles, and run by Poles and guarded by Poles, but to you those concentration camps are no concentration camps. Yet again you deal with an inconvenient part of Polish history by simply denying it.

We'll if you LIE, why wouldnt anyone else?

Oh look: my very favourite little liar is back! Been to put flowers and candles on those graves yet have you?

In case people have forgotten, the ever charming Juliet said here:

So let me re-phrase for your little scummy fuzzy pompon ass: No English graves that died in combat on Polish soil during WW2. The first grave you will (miraculously) find I will drive to and plant flowers and light some candles, and unlike your gay ass I stand behind my words.

I showed her exactly where she can find such graves in this message.

But still she refuses to acknowledge that any Brit ever died in combat in Poland in WWII and still she refuses to plant flowers and light some candles on the graves of the Brits who did.

Volkliste was generated by Germans in Generalgubernia after invasion, if you were found on the list you received the letter that you have so many days to report to a commanding unit. If you did not report Wehrmacht came to your door and claimed you, if you still opposed you were imprisoned. There were no signing-up to being German.

Dear lady, even you should feel ashamed of telling such a pack of lies! There isn't even a shred of truth in that paragraph.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
27 Jun 2011 #116
just kept ranting about me a) being Harry

1968 expellation of Jewish holocaust survivors

You are a woman, your grandfather was in AK and the other one was killed in Katyń... Come on, we can smell a rat a mile away. Try harder next time, old prick.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
27 Jun 2011 #117
Dear lady, even you should feel ashamed of telling such a pack of lies! There isn't even a shred of truth in that paragraph.

Dear Harry, There is a link for you about that issue. Unfortunately only Polish version of it is worth its salt.
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polacy_w_Wehrmachcie]

And here we have yet another inconvenient part of Polish history: Poles ethnically cleansing Poland.

Sweet pie, not Poles but commies obeying commands from the Kremlin. That is an distinction you seem to be ignoring totally.

Established at the order of the Polish government,

Well ,there we go again, lets establish ones and for all that government of the Soviet Poland wasn't at all government of Poland, independent Poland - when you learn to distinguish between those two, you can come back and we have a real discussion if you are interested in it!!

You so far didn't discuss one single subject, just kept ranting about me a) being Harry b) not knowing polish history.

This is The Internet forum. Its means that you can scroll back and check who wrote what.
I'm saying that either you are lazy and write things and accusations without checking or you are accusing me of things I have no done on purpose, meaning you are indeed a troll.

I see no purpose to use a guest account other then when a member of the forum want to say something he/she wouldn't had said otherwise.

Never-mind all that, I asked you :

Silesianka:
nd who thinks it was ok to destroy 1000yrs of history and replace it with socialistic shoe boxes

Would you like to quote my words where I said that, or admit that you are lying.

I'm asking you to either provide a quote my words or apologize for stating something which is not true.
Nothing personal, but I expect a basic respect from a person I'm about to have a serious discussion with.
Without that I'm not going to address others issues you have risen in your post. A Half of which are off topic - this thread deals with historical issues - not contemporary trivia.
JonnyM 11 | 2,620
27 Jun 2011 #118
not Poles but commies

You're saying the two are mutually exclusive? Remember three million Poles were party members.
Harry
27 Jun 2011 #119
Dear Harry, There is a link for you about that issue. Unfortunately only Polish version of it is worth its salt.

So let's have a look what that website says with regard to the claim that "There were no signing-up":
"Residents of the Polish part of Upper Silesia, who from the beginning declared themselves as Germans also included in the spring of 1940 intake."

"these recruits can also be divided into two categories - those who voluntarily signed this Volksliste"
"Committees examining applications for various segments of the population against the German National List were required to provide lists"
"persons appointed to the army before entering on the list were to be exempted from military service if the decision of the commission for the German National List turned out to be negative."

"the most troublesome consequence of signing Volksliste"
"Polish army veterans of the September Campaign who received an offer and signed the Volksliste were released from POW camps"
So the source which you provide shows that I'm right. Thank you for that.

Sweet pie, not Poles but commies obeying commands from the Kremlin.

I think that you will find that they were Poles. As were the other three and a half members of the PZPR. But I'm sure that the fact that more Poles were members of the PZPR than were ever members of Solidarnosc is just another inconvenient part of Polish history for you.
OP Ironside 50 | 10,917
27 Jun 2011 #120
But I'm sure that the fact that more Poles were members of the PZPR than were ever members of Solidarnosc is just another inconvenient part of Polish history for you.

Nope, what inconvenient bout that?I do not contest facts, only your interpretations of them!

You're saying the two are mutually exclusive? Remember three million Poles were party members.

Well, yes but those Poles for a most part were traitors obeying commands of foreign power.
Why would Poles be assisted with their deeds?
Let say that your a very distant family member turned a murderous scum. Would be right for his victims or their families to demand compensation from you ?

Is it difficult to understand ?


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