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So called "inconvenient parts" of Polish history - what do you think?


joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
16 Jun 2011 #31
All nations and tribes have black spots in their history...Problems come when tribes or nations claim victimhood without putting historical events into context...In war, especially, crimes are committed because moral restraint is removed, and it becomes a battle or struggle for survival.
Harry
16 Jun 2011 #32
All nations and tribes have black spots in their history

Precisely. But something that some Poles seem to have a lot of difficulty admitting with regard to Poland.
Marynka11 4 | 676
16 Jun 2011 #33
Use the search engine, that is what is there for.

I've used it. I did not find anything that supports your statements.

The fact that you refuse to point me to some reliable evidence says a lot.
Harry
16 Jun 2011 #34
The fact that you refuse to point me to some reliable evidence says a lot.

I've just provided you with a photograph of a Polish SS volunteer but you still claim that I refuse to point you to reliable evidence: that is almost as pathetic as your claim that Dachau was not a concentration camp.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
16 Jun 2011 #35
So your view is that none of the 100,000+ Poles who were captured by the western allies while fighting for Poland were SS?

I've just provided you with a photograph of a Polish SS volunteer

so where are the remaining 100,000+ minus one photographs of Polish SS voluntieers?
Harry
16 Jun 2011 #36
Whoever said that there were 100,000+ Polish SS volunteers? I certainly did not and would not agree with anybody who said it. But well done with showing that they can not argue with what I say and so instead you try to argue with what I do not say.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
16 Jun 2011 #37
Some people on PF and in real life keep insisting that Poland and Poles did not deal with so called inconvenient parts of Polish history.

The Blue Police perhaps? As close to SS traditions as you can be. The NSZ perhaps? More interested in making deals with the Nazis to kill Jews than to resist?

The Świętokrzyżka brigade maybe?
OP Ironside 52 | 11,355
16 Jun 2011 #38
Ethnic cleansing of the German population ... BUT the Russians were responsible, and the Germans fled anyway.

Fine, let deal with that first.
You use incorrect term of ethnic cleaning to describe what happened after 1945.
Ethnic cleansingis a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas

Whereas you are talking about:
Population transfer is the movement of a large group of people from one region to another by state policy or international authority, most frequently on the basis of ethnicity or religion.

Term ethnic cleansing is new term, adopted after civil war in Yugoslavia.

Population transfer was a legal measure in the eyes of the international law until 1949. When such transfer if involuntary lost blessing of legality.
If you want fair and honest discussion on the subject you cannot use such imprecise or/and prejudiced language.

Primo, Russia, Britain and USA are directly responsible for so called expulsion of Germans, that is unquestionable fact - do you want to argue this????

Secondly that fate was at the time shared by other nations including Poles. More, Germans first used expulsion against Poles kicking them out from parts of the occupied Poland.

Thirdly, German civilians flee in the face of advancing Red Army.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

Well, it happened, do you want Poles to apologize or feel responsible for that eh?

Pomerania and Silesia were annexed ... BUT we Poles weren't asked, and since the Piasts (or whatever they were called) owned the lands 10,000 years ago we call them regained territories anyway.

Well, Poles weren't asked. However I fully support that acquisition of Prussian territories for a number of reasons.
Nevertheless that argument would be a strong one if not for one single detail - at the same time Poland lost even bigger territory to Soviets.

There were labor camps in Poland after the war which came very close to what is considered a concentration camp

That is not argument that admittance of being ignorant - those labor camps were used for Poles from patriotic and notable families, at the same time officers and soldiers of Polish forces, heroes of Resistance against Germans were being fight, imprisoned and murdered. Poland turned into Soviet colony. Those who were running and directing labor camps were criminals and traitors who should be shot.

You do not expect seriously Poles to take responsibility for that eh?

There is always an excuse - never ever do certain people on PF admit that their own country might have some skeletons in its historical closet, too.

Yeah, I agree on that, Poles have a tendency to deny some facts. I think due to complexes and wannabe MR Nice obsession :)
I can admit whatever there is skeletons or not, but you must be serious about it. I will not admit something just because you think I should ie skeleton must be there !:)

All this ends up in the Google index for everybody out there to find and read

by all means the google are answer to everything :)
Harry
16 Jun 2011 #39
You do not expect seriously Poles to take responsibility for that eh?

Of course not: you won't take responsibility for even a single negative inconvenient part of Polish history.
TheOther 5 | 3,691
16 Jun 2011 #40
Don't have much time, so just a quick response:

those labor camps were used for Poles from patriotic and notable families,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Potulice
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zgoda_labour_camp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Potulice
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Jaworzno

Those camps were used for Germans and Poles.

Population transfer was a legal measure in the eyes of the international law until 1949

This transfer (as you call it) was supposed to be carried out in a civil manner. In reality, over half a million people were killed in the process. Ever wondered why there is an Erika Steinbach?

And speaking of population transfer as a legal measure:

Quote from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_%281944%E2%80%931950%29#Poland.2C_including_former_German_territories

"Early expulsions were undertaken by the Polish communist military authorities[67] even before the Potsdam Conference placed them under temporary Polish administration pending the final Peace Treaty,[68] to ensure their later integration into an ethnically homogeneous Poland"

Ironside, I know that Poland was under the control of the USSR and that the months and years immediately after the end of the war were horror for everyone, but what I've mentioned above is also part of Polish history.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 Jun 2011 #41
This transfer (as you call it) was supposed to be carried out in a civil manner. In reality, over half a million people were killed in the process. Ever wondered why there is an Erika Steinbach?

Thats a lie.

Also i dont see how can anyone view german expulsions as undeserving, these people were Nazis and families of Nazis, they deserved death and got off lightly.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
16 Jun 2011 #42
Polish concentration camp £ambinowice. Thousands of German civilians were murdered there.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 Jun 2011 #43
Proof Sobieski? All i see here are lies without sources and thats not the first time you lie either.
TheOther 5 | 3,691
16 Jun 2011 #44
You use incorrect term of ethnic cleaning to describe what happened after 1945.

Damn, editing times out so quickly.

"The events have been usually classified as population transfer,[197] or as ethnic cleansing.[198] R. J. Rummel has classified these events as democide,[103] and a few go as far as calling it a genocide.[199]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_%281944%E2%80%931950%29#Legacy_of_the_expulsions

Thats a lie.

Really? :)

Also i dont see how can anyone view german expulsions as undeserving,

That was not the question. We are talking about "incovenient parts" of Polish history.
Harry
16 Jun 2011 #45
Those camps were used for Germans and Poles.

And Ukrainians.
RobertLee 4 | 73
16 Jun 2011 #46
RobertLee:
he spend 22 months in prison
Before being cleared.

You forgot to add: cleared by the communist justice system, which was imposed on Poles.

RobertLee:
was charged numerous times
With the number being 'two', as in 'he was charged two times'.

1945, 1956 and finally after 1989.

RobertLee:
his last trial was stopped by his death.
Why do you tell such pointless lies? The article says "the trial for the 1945 incident in £ambinowice was resumed by the local court in Opole. However, it had to be postponed - and finally terminated in 2005 - due to the poor health of both Gęborski and the witnesses. Gęborski died June 14, 2006."!

That's a lie - his trial was postphoned due to his poor health in 2005 and terminated in 2006 because of his death. Those bad Poles didn't take him from his death bed to court? I don't think any democratic justice systems allows this, even for worse criminals.

RobertLee:
Where did you get that 100 000 number from?
British government figures of the number of Poles taken prisoner by British forces or taken prisoner by other allied forces and transferred to the care of British forces.

Do you mind showing me that British government report?

RobertLee:
While many Poles were forcibly conscripted into Wehrmacht

Please do not lie: Polish people were not eligible to even join the Wehrmacht, only those who had sign up on the Deutsche Volksliste could join the Wehrmacht. No signature, no Wehrmacht.

That's a lie. You didn't need to sign anything to be forcibly conscripted into Wehrmacht. And yes, Poles weren't allowed into Wehrmacht - problem is German needed cannon fodder and didn't blink forcibly conscripting Silesians or Kashubians.

Harry, you are hateful polonophobic bigot, you should have been banned from this forum long time ago for your libelous accusations.
ender 5 | 398
16 Jun 2011 #47
Ironside
Good post. Harry knows knows all fact he writes his dung to make Poles and Poland look bad same way as gross-man. His use of statistic

if we make the assumption that one in fifty of the Poles who were captured

there must have been at least two thousand

is pathetic.
Poles (Silesians, Kashubian-prime minister Tusk's grandfather for example) living in prewar Germany were more then happy to run to Polish Army in the West. Even that was good reason for Gazeta Wyborcza (delphiadomine) to accuse Polish Army in the West of war crime (living less POW in camps then number of POW taken after battle- WAR CRIME)
Harry
16 Jun 2011 #48
the communist justice system, which was imposed on Poles.

And which not a single Pole took part in, right?

1945, 1956 and finally after 1989.

Why do you bother with such pathetic lies? We both know that the article says "He served in that post until October [1945], when he was removed because of numerous abuses. However, by 1947 the investigation against him was dropped without any charges being presented and Gęborski was promoted to the rank of captain."

That's a lie

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_G%C4%99borski
I would encourage all readers to click this link and check for themselves that the article does indeed say "Finally, after the end of communist rule in Poland, in the late 1990s, the trial for the 1945 incident in £ambinowice was resumed by the local court in Opole. However, it had to be postponed - and finally terminated in 2005 - due to the poor health of both Gęborski and the witnesses. Gęborski died June 14, 2006." just as I have stated.

Do you mind showing me that British government report?

Have a look at Hansard, it's there.

Harry, you are hateful polonophobic bigot, you should have been banned from this forum long time ago for your libelous accusations.

And you, sir, are, as I have shown above, a liar. Good day.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 Jun 2011 #49
That was not the question. We are talking about "incovenient parts" of Polish history.

But thats not inconvenient! Germans wanted to wipe out over 130 milion people, they deserved death why would evicting them be inconvenient? It was just punishment.

Really? :)

Really.
RobertLee 4 | 73
16 Jun 2011 #50
You are welcome to read the Polish (more accurate) version of the page:

Proces (przerywany notoryczną nieobecnością świadków) trwał do 2005, kiedy to został odroczony ze względu na zły stan zdrowia oskarżonego, ostatecznie umorzony został w 2006 z powodu śmierci oskarżonego.

It also confirms that he was charged twice before 1989 - although it's irrelevant, cause Poland wasn't an independent state until then.
ender 5 | 398
16 Jun 2011 #51
That's all I heard and no one bothered to explained the entire story to me after I asked a few times.

No worries I was planing to do the same :-) looks I've got better self-control.
TheOther 5 | 3,691
16 Jun 2011 #52
Really.

You are joking, right? Half a million was on the lower end of the estimates, and you know that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_estimates_of_the_flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans

It was just punishment.

No, it wasn't. Poland got German territory in return for the lost lands in the east, that was all. The Soviets could as well have showed you the finger when it comes to compensation.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 Jun 2011 #53
You are joking, right? Half a million was on the lower end of the estimates, and you know that.

No i'm not, either you count the victims of the Red Army or the members of SS, Gestapo and those identified as active opressors of the Polish Nation, these were indeed killed or tortured and i wholeheartedly support all that was done to them.

Also Wiki is not a source and cannot be quoted upon, mainly because it takes one revisionist to edit it and we both know there's people in PF who edited wikis to suit them in the past.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
16 Jun 2011 #54
This transfer (as you call it) was supposed to be carried out in a civil manner. In reality, over half a million people were killed in the process. Ever wondered why there is an Erika Steinbach?

Do you? Erika was born in Poland during the war years but only because her parents were settled there by the Nazis who expelled the Poles, her mother was there just long enough to give birth, her father a bit longer as he was in Luftwaffe. Do you know what happen to the Polish family that were the owners of the apartment they occupied? Well they themselves were forcibly removed as to what happened to them after that no one knows. Cry me a river. Speaking of civil, do you know how civil the Germans were when they were expelling Poles during the occupation? In a span of 5 months just after the Warsaw uprising some 650,000 inhabitants of that city alone were forcibly removed, some died some were sent to concentration camps most were sent to forced labor camps deep inside Germany proper. Compared to the way they treated us their treatment was lenient, some were moving out of their own free will as their army was being pushed back further and further west by the red army in fear of reprisals and for a good reason I might add, rest were simply given marching orders where they could pack up their sh1t and were told to get the fvck out but at least they were free, no extended holiday in some labor camp or concentration camp where a friendly travel agent in German uniform was ready to great them and show just how hospitable the German people can be. Was the road back a bit bumpy? Perhaps they shouldn’t have try to improve the road conditions in Poland through the use of bombs.
Harry
16 Jun 2011 #55
You are welcome to read the Polish (more accurate) version of the page:

Who says it is more accurate? And I note that it doesn't say he was formally charged in 1945, it says that he was accused.

although it's irrelevant, cause Poland wasn't an independent state until then.

Ah, that other superb Polish excuse for the inconvenient bits of Polish history!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 Jun 2011 #56
Do you? Erika was born in Poland during the war years but only because her parents were settled there by the Nazis who expelled the Poles

To add spice to the issue Steinbachs were settled in a house of a polish teacher who along with his family were sent to a concentration camp where their daughter and the husband died, of course The Other does not really care since he's on a mission to force Poles to see it his way even though his way is horribly unjust and disgustingly unethical (but only when it comes to Poland).
Harry
16 Jun 2011 #57
rest were simply given marching orders where they could pack up their sh1t and were told to get the fvck out but at least they were free, no extended holiday in some labor camp or concentration camp

Well, apart from the 180,000 who enjoyed a stay at one of Poland's ever so delightful 'labour' camps (which of course were in no way, shape or form concentration camps, and even if they were, it was all because of the Jews, and the Commies, and the Russians, none of it at all was the fault of even a single Pole).
TheOther 5 | 3,691
16 Jun 2011 #58
I agree that information from Wikipedia has to be taken with a grain of salt, but in this case the whole article was full of links to the sources from which the quotes were taken. You might not believe one source, but do you really want to argue that all sources are only there to put Poland in a bad light?

The Other does not really care since he's on a mission to force Poles to see it his way even though his way is horribly unjust and disgustingly unethical (but only when it comes to Poland).

Back to square one (post #24):
"Every time there is even the slightest criticism of Poland, you can bet that someone will either respond with a personal insult or answer with a "but".".

You seem to be the perfect example... :)
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
16 Jun 2011 #59
Give it a rest Harry, another futile attempt on your part at some dark humor.
PolskiMoc 4 | 324
16 Jun 2011 #60
Polish concentration camp £ambinowice. Thousands of German civilians were murdered there.

More like Polish people were detained & died in the GERMAN concentration camp of £ambinowice.

The Germans used £ambinowice in during the Franco Prussian war for French prisoners of war too.

Germans in general are just vile creatures.


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