So called "inconvenient parts" of Polish history - what do you think?

All nations and tribes have black spots in their history...Problems come when tribes or nations claim victimhood without putting historical events into context...In war, especially, crimes are committed because moral restraint is removed, and it becomes a battle or struggle for survival.

Precisely. But something that some Poles seem to have a lot of difficulty admitting with regard to Poland.

I've used it. I did not find anything that supports your statements.

The fact that you refuse to point me to some reliable evidence says a lot.

I've just provided you with a photograph of a Polish SS volunteer but you still claim that I refuse to point you to reliable evidence: that is almost as pathetic as your claim that Dachau was not a concentration camp.

so where are the remaining 100,000+ minus one photographs of Polish SS voluntieers?

Whoever said that there were 100,000+ Polish SS volunteers? I certainly did not and would not agree with anybody who said it. But well done with showing that they can not argue with what I say and so instead you try to argue with what I do not say.

The Blue Police perhaps? As close to SS traditions as you can be. The NSZ perhaps? More interested in making deals with the Nazis to kill Jews than to resist?

The Świętokrzyżka brigade maybe?

Fine, let deal with that first.
You use incorrect term of ethnic cleaning to describe what happened after 1945.
Ethnic cleansingis a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas

Whereas you are talking about:
Population transfer is the movement of a large group of people from one region to another by state policy or international authority, most frequently on the basis of ethnicity or religion.

Term ethnic cleansing is new term, adopted after civil war in Yugoslavia.

Population transfer was a legal measure in the eyes of the international law until 1949. When such transfer if involuntary lost blessing of legality.
If you want fair and honest discussion on the subject you cannot use such imprecise or/and prejudiced language.

Primo, Russia, Britain and USA are directly responsible for so called expulsion of Germans, that is unquestionable fact - do you want to argue this????

Secondly that fate was at the time shared by other nations including Poles. More, Germans first used expulsion against Poles kicking them out from parts of the occupied Poland.

Thirdly, German civilians flee in the face of advancing Red Army.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

Well, it happened, do you want Poles to apologize or feel responsible for that eh?


Well, Poles weren't asked. However I fully support that acquisition of Prussian territories for a number of reasons.
Nevertheless that argument would be a strong one if not for one single detail - at the same time Poland lost even bigger territory to Soviets.


That is not argument that admittance of being ignorant - those labor camps were used for Poles from patriotic and notable families, at the same time officers and soldiers of Polish forces, heroes of Resistance against Germans were being fight, imprisoned and murdered. Poland turned into Soviet colony. Those who were running and directing labor camps were criminals and traitors who should be shot.

You do not expect seriously Poles to take responsibility for that eh?


Yeah, I agree on that, Poles have a tendency to deny some facts. I think due to complexes and wannabe MR Nice obsession :)
I can admit whatever there is skeletons or not, but you must be serious about it. I will not admit something just because you think I should ie skeleton must be there !:)


by all means the google are answer to everything :)

Of course not: you won't take responsibility for even a single negative inconvenient part of Polish history.

Don't have much time, so just a quick response:


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Potulice
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zgoda_labour_camp
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Potulice
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Labour_Camp_Jaworzno

Those camps were used for Germans and Poles.


This transfer (as you call it) was supposed to be carried out in a civil manner. In reality, over half a million people were killed in the process. Ever wondered why there is an Erika Steinbach?

And speaking of population transfer as a legal measure:

Quote from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_%281944%E2%80%931950%29#Poland.2C_including_former_German_territories

"Early expulsions were undertaken by the Polish communist military authorities[67] even before the Potsdam Conference placed them under temporary Polish administration pending the final Peace Treaty,[68] to ensure their later integration into an ethnically homogeneous Poland"

Ironside, I know that Poland was under the control of the USSR and that the months and years immediately after the end of the war were horror for everyone, but what I've mentioned above is also part of Polish history.

Thats a lie.

Also i dont see how can anyone view german expulsions as undeserving, these people were Nazis and families of Nazis, they deserved death and got off lightly.

Polish concentration camp £ambinowice. Thousands of German civilians were murdered there.

Proof Sobieski? All i see here are lies without sources and thats not the first time you lie either.

Damn, editing times out so quickly.

"The events have been usually classified as population transfer,[197] or as ethnic cleansing.[198] R. J. Rummel has classified these events as democide,[103] and a few go as far as calling it a genocide.[199]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_%281944%E2%80%931950%29#Legacy_of_the_expulsions


Really? :)


That was not the question. We are talking about "incovenient parts" of Polish history.

And Ukrainians.

You forgot to add: cleared by the communist justice system, which was imposed on Poles.


1945, 1956 and finally after 1989.


That's a lie - his trial was postphoned due to his poor health in 2005 and terminated in 2006 because of his death. Those bad Poles didn't take him from his death bed to court? I don't think any democratic justice systems allows this, even for worse criminals.


Do you mind showing me that British government report?


That's a lie. You didn't need to sign anything to be forcibly conscripted into Wehrmacht. And yes, Poles weren't allowed into Wehrmacht - problem is German needed cannon fodder and didn't blink forcibly conscripting Silesians or Kashubians.

Harry, you are hateful polonophobic bigot, you should have been banned from this forum long time ago for your libelous accusations.

Ironside
Good post. Harry knows knows all fact he writes his dung to make Poles and Poland look bad same way as gross-man. His use of statistic



is pathetic.
Poles (Silesians, Kashubian-prime minister Tusk's grandfather for example) living in prewar Germany were more then happy to run to Polish Army in the West. Even that was good reason for Gazeta Wyborcza (delphiadomine) to accuse Polish Army in the West of war crime (living less POW in camps then number of POW taken after battle- WAR CRIME)

And which not a single Pole took part in, right?


Why do you bother with such pathetic lies? We both know that the article says "He served in that post until October [1945], when he was removed because of numerous abuses. However, by 1947 the investigation against him was dropped without any charges being presented and Gęborski was promoted to the rank of captain."


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_G%C4%99borski
I would encourage all readers to click this link and check for themselves that the article does indeed say "Finally, after the end of communist rule in Poland, in the late 1990s, the trial for the 1945 incident in £ambinowice was resumed by the local court in Opole. However, it had to be postponed - and finally terminated in 2005 - due to the poor health of both Gęborski and the witnesses. Gęborski died June 14, 2006." just as I have stated.


Have a look at Hansard, it's there.


And you, sir, are, as I have shown above, a liar. Good day.

But thats not inconvenient! Germans wanted to wipe out over 130 milion people, they deserved death why would evicting them be inconvenient? It was just punishment.


Really.

You are welcome to read the Polish (more accurate) version of the page:


It also confirms that he was charged twice before 1989 - although it's irrelevant, cause Poland wasn't an independent state until then.

No worries I was planing to do the same :-) looks I've got better self-control.

You are joking, right? Half a million was on the lower end of the estimates, and you know that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_estimates_of_the_flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans


No, it wasn't. Poland got German territory in return for the lost lands in the east, that was all. The Soviets could as well have showed you the finger when it comes to compensation.

No i'm not, either you count the victims of the Red Army or the members of SS, Gestapo and those identified as active opressors of the Polish Nation, these were indeed killed or tortured and i wholeheartedly support all that was done to them.

Also Wiki is not a source and cannot be quoted upon, mainly because it takes one revisionist to edit it and we both know there's people in PF who edited wikis to suit them in the past.

Do you? Erika was born in Poland during the war years but only because her parents were settled there by the Nazis who expelled the Poles, her mother was there just long enough to give birth, her father a bit longer as he was in Luftwaffe. Do you know what happen to the Polish family that were the owners of the apartment they occupied? Well they themselves were forcibly removed as to what happened to them after that no one knows. Cry me a river. Speaking of civil, do you know how civil the Germans were when they were expelling Poles during the occupation? In a span of 5 months just after the Warsaw uprising some 650,000 inhabitants of that city alone were forcibly removed, some died some were sent to concentration camps most were sent to forced labor camps deep inside Germany proper. Compared to the way they treated us their treatment was lenient, some were moving out of their own free will as their army was being pushed back further and further west by the red army in fear of reprisals and for a good reason I might add, rest were simply given marching orders where they could pack up their sh1t and were told to get the fvck out but at least they were free, no extended holiday in some labor camp or concentration camp where a friendly travel agent in German uniform was ready to great them and show just how hospitable the German people can be. Was the road back a bit bumpy? Perhaps they shouldn’t have try to improve the road conditions in Poland through the use of bombs.

Who says it is more accurate? And I note that it doesn't say he was formally charged in 1945, it says that he was accused.


Ah, that other superb Polish excuse for the inconvenient bits of Polish history!

To add spice to the issue Steinbachs were settled in a house of a polish teacher who along with his family were sent to a concentration camp where their daughter and the husband died, of course The Other does not really care since he's on a mission to force Poles to see it his way even though his way is horribly unjust and disgustingly unethical (but only when it comes to Poland).

Well, apart from the 180,000 who enjoyed a stay at one of Poland's ever so delightful 'labour' camps (which of course were in no way, shape or form concentration camps, and even if they were, it was all because of the Jews, and the Commies, and the Russians, none of it at all was the fault of even a single Pole).

I agree that information from Wikipedia has to be taken with a grain of salt, but in this case the whole article was full of links to the sources from which the quotes were taken. You might not believe one source, but do you really want to argue that all sources are only there to put Poland in a bad light?


Back to square one (post #24):
"Every time there is even the slightest criticism of Poland, you can bet that someone will either respond with a personal insult or answer with a "but".".

You seem to be the perfect example... :)

Give it a rest Harry, another futile attempt on your part at some dark humor.

More like Polish people were detained & died in the GERMAN concentration camp of £ambinowice.

The Germans used £ambinowice in during the Franco Prussian war for French prisoners of war too.

Germans in general are just vile creatures.