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The Polish Blame Culture!


aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
25 Apr 2010 #91
In short, your life's not changed, because you haven't experienced what it was like before it all changed.

I disagree and I know why you are saying it. People who lived in a democratic and free society cannot really comprehend how it was t live in a society, which was not free.

All those feelings, resentment about the WW2 were bottled up for years and now they are picked up by another generation. That is my take on it, so your argument that this generation did not have their lives altered is spot on, however that particular generation is voicing what the previous generation could not. Delayed reaction I think, but it will take some time, before it is over.

For somebody like you who grew up in a free and democratic society it is hard to understand a different world and Poland was a different world prior to 1989. The same goes for Shelley.

I don't agree with such a reaction, because I think that Poles should have moved on a long time ago.
Poles have moved on and Poland is a very dynamic country in comparison to what it was prior to 1989.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Apr 2010 #92
That's just not true, aphro. Many people in Poland, esp older people, still lay the blame at the feet of others. If you lived here, you would know that.

What is so hard to understand about 2 crazy men with 2 crazy ideologies?
Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
25 Apr 2010 #93
Poles have moved on and Poland is a very dynamic country in comparison to what it was prior to 1989.

it is noticeably different and for the better. still a little way to go yet.

Many people in Poland, esp older people, still lay the blame at the feet of others.

as do some old/young folk elsewhere.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Apr 2010 #94
True, it's an international phenomenon :(
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
25 Apr 2010 #95
That's just not true, aphro.

what is not true? Which part of my post. I was trying to explain why Poles still whine about the WW2 'batrayal". and was replying to MG ( I wish people read stuff more carefully on PF)

Many people in Poland, esp older people, still lay the blame at the feet of others.

Hey, I talk to my father once I weak: I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:) and it costs me money to listen to it tooo.........

If you lived here, you would know that.

I have live in Poland longer then you have, so I am not sure how your "observant" eye is better then mine, unless I have misunderstood your post all together.

What is so hard to understand about 2 crazy men with 2 crazy ideologies?

you lost me here:)

it is noticeably different and for the better. still a little way to go yet.

it is a long way to go, which is a good thing, no?;)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Apr 2010 #96
Hitler and Stalin, imagine history without them :)

Aha, so you believe that the blame culture is very low here, aphro?

When Brits come together as Vets, they share a beer and reminisce positively and don't point fingers.

Betrayal? Britain took 2 days to enter the war.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
25 Apr 2010 #97
it is a long way to go, which is a good thing, no?;)

i think poland is well up to date in some areas, and has managed to by-pass a few negatives on the way. still someway to go though. a little caution and thought is good.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
25 Apr 2010 #98
Aha, so you believe that the blame culture is very low here, aphro?

I have never said that and I am beginning to think that you either don't read my posts,or just assume what you want to assume. There is and I actually explained to MG the reasons for that ( well, some). I also agree that some people are more STUCK in it then others in Poland.

I also know that Anglo - Saxon culture deals with such issues in a different way, so partly it is a cultural thing as well.

I also know that some Poles like to take less responsibility, or have a problem with admitting when they do something wrong. It is a Polish trade of some people in Poland.

But, I would not call it a BLAME CULTURE.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Apr 2010 #99
It's what's called a leading question but you can answer it as you wish :) You don't have a gun at your head, do you? ;) Don't be so defensive, I wasn't assuming anything, Sir. Maybe your wife could give you a massage to relax you, ease out that jumpy tension :)

I go along with what you say in your posts, aphro, I read them closely. You made some fine points in your last post!! :) :)
nana - | 40
25 Apr 2010 #100
Dont you know it's much easier to blame sb than do sthg right and look into the future? It's victim sindrome. (I wrote psychological article about it ;P ). In my point of view it's changing but we need some time. Still, but it's changing.

PS firstly we should accept the past then we could look into the future.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Apr 2010 #101
Let's keep mentioning the fact, the war finished 65 years ago. Also, communism brought with it a sense of order. It still has its fans in Poland.

Seanus (definitely not a fan of communism personally)
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,443
25 Apr 2010 #102
I go along with what you say in your posts, aphro, I read them closely. You made some fine points in your last post!! :) :)

lol It must be those 3 coffees I have had.
*aphro is booking a massage on Monday;), since Seanus might be onto something*

It's victim sindrome.

I would agree with that. Until the victim syndrome disappears, we will hear about it more. It might take another generation.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Apr 2010 #103
I don't blame you for that ;)

Who knows what Chamberlain would have done at the helm!? He might have tried to help Poland sooner but it's all conjectural speculation.
Harry
26 Apr 2010 #104
Britain's big mistake was not asking the Nazis for 120 million roubles. That is the amount Poland sold their allies in Ukraine to the Soviets for. And then Poland locked all the Ukrainian troops who objected up in internment camps.

I do find it hugely amusing that Poles complain that British broke the Anglo-Polish treaty when:
a) Britain didn't break the treaty;
b) Between 1918 and 1938 Poland broke treaties with Czechoslovakia (twice and invaded the country twice too), Lithuania (twice, as well as invading once and threatening to invade a second time) and the Ukrainian People's Republic (a backstab of disgraceful proportions).
ender 5 | 398
26 Apr 2010 #105
OK Harry!!!! WOULD YOU PLEASE TELL US WHERE DID YOU FIND INFORMATION ABOUT 120 MILINIONS RUBELS? Source not your INTERPRATATION. I've seen so many times thouse 120 milions (in gold of course?) I became rich.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
26 Apr 2010 #106
Or will the they continue to say "Yalta"

No, they continue to say 'Choleta!'
Seanus 15 | 19,706
26 Apr 2010 #107
You mean 'ah, cholera'? ;)
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
27 Apr 2010 #108
Or will the they continue to say "Yalta"

How could one ever forget when we are constantly being reminded by the perpetrators? Everyone plays the victim these days telling us to forget while they build the museums of remembrance, hell even time is being measured differently for some, it’s been 60 years for us and it’s time to move on. I wonder how many years have it been for them? They tell us to compensate them for the sins of their own grandfather who already bled us dry, carving up our territory, confiscating our property taking our cities and deporting millions of the native inhabitants of those lands, except for the lucky few who were resettled in western Poland at the war’s end, (neither by their choice nor by their governments decision of what the final division should be) to the vacation resorts and health spas in the far east so they can never claim it back. It was the big boys wise decision to created an absolute chaos at the wars end so they can make pretty speeches like Winston Churchill’s’ Iron Curtain Speech knowing perfectly well what the consequences will be agreeing to it in the first place, but I guess the world needs its villains and hero’s. Now the same powers to be responsible for all this mess in the first place tell us to compensate the Jews for their estimate loss of property when most of it was on the other side of Yalta agreement not even within today’s border of Poland, acknowledge the wrong doing to the German population that fled or had to be resettled because of that decision but that’s only the first step, compensation soon to follow. Seems like every week there’s an article on German victims, the Jewish victims and evil Poles and one can’t help but think, Yalta.

Damn right never Forget.


hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
27 Apr 2010 #109
In short, your life's not changed, because you haven't experienced what it was like before it all changed.

I beg to differ.

When Brits come together as Vets, they share a beer and reminisce positively and don't point fingers.

Indeed they do, because they were greeted by their country as heroes, and rightfully so, not as criminals waiting to be captured and deported to Siberia by traveling that well worn route that previous generations who dared to stand up to tyranny traveled.

At least Poles have the consolation that for the most part throughout history, their country stood on the side of civilization.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
27 Apr 2010 #110
a horrible price but it beats being german citizens.

Well...I like being a German, being the hammer beats being the polish anvil hands down! ;)

We have now the whole of Europe...and no borders to your Poland anymore...so, who won in the End!
The natural balance in Europe can't be surpressed for infinite as our former enemies found out! :)
They now ask and beg Berlin!
Whereas some Poles still blame and whine all the time! But if it was worth it....;)
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Apr 2010 #111
"IF", Poles...your land is the land of dreams and fantasies...always was, always will! ;)

Really? We've been a power for over 370 years, Germany is a power for less then 200, whats the natural balance of Europe, you tell me:)

As someone pointed out before Poland was getting ganged up for the last 2 centuries so maybe now when we can breath again we get to see whatever the natural balance of Europe is supposed to be:))
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
27 Apr 2010 #112
What could had been worse than that what actually happened?

Well it is hard to imagine, but if it hadn't been for the the war, paradoxically it would have taken the Europeans a lot longer to form the EU I guess.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
27 Apr 2010 #113
Yeah...and Greece was the birthplace for european history and democracy, they are begging on their knees Germany today for hand outs they need to survive.

Which proves a point, who's to say where will Germany be in 50 years?:)

Better stop wagging a history book in today's people faces during discussions, Sok...or people will start asking: "What the hell happened?"

Me? Its you who claims a recent and not necceserily permanent thing like unified Germany is some sort of "natural order" to Europe:)

Neither you nor Poland or any country in central Europe stays the same for long and you assume for some reason that your money is going to carry you through, it didnt thus far.

I will tell you! 1871 happened...all the little german fingers unified and became a fist!

Yes lovely and it never crossed your mind that it might not be permanent? Germany is around for a grand total of 139 years, for the remaining 1000+ it was a weak and divided federation, hmm wonder which is the natural order bit, the 1.5 century of unification or the 10+ centuries of division:))

That's the shift of power the old, now has beens of France and GB rejected so much...

So Germany is not an old has been?:)

the following wars wracked our whole continent but it's only during peace time Germany could and can reach it's full potential...

Actually its only due to american money and 65 years of free market interactions that Germany reached its full potential, Poland however is pretty far from its full potential but the crisis however gave us all a hint didnt it?

That's why these comments are totally besides the reality of today's Europe...you are still thinking in military terms...boy, you couldn't be more wrong! ;)

No i dont, in a previous thread i pointed to obvious attempts by Germany to dominate the region of Poland they want back, that one is going to fail as well.

Anyway while i really can relate to being a merrily blind patriot carefull with the "natural order" of thing, Germany got on the bandwagon fairly recently and while still kicking it lost its momentum quite for quite a while now so carefull with taking things for granted.

Your kids are just as likely to iive in Breslau as they're in a loose federation of small german states, panta rhei, especially for Germany as history shows:)

Well it is hard to imagine, but if it hadn't been for the the war, paradoxically it would have taken the Europeans a lot longer to form the EU I guess.

We'd still have kings without the war.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,447
27 Apr 2010 #114
Well it is hard to imagine, but if it hadn't been for the the war, paradoxically it would have taken the Europeans a lot longer to form the EU I guess.

There would be no EU!
The EU was founded to harness german power and use it instead of trying to destroy it (what had proved to be impossible and disastreous before).

Which proves a point, who's to say where will Germany be in 50 years?:)

The same who believe there will still be a Poland in 50 years! ;)

Its you who claims a recent and not necceserily permanent thing like unified Germany is some sort of "natural order" to Europe:)

I'm sorry, but that is not some nationalist wishfull thinking but just facts. We are the engine, the motor, the economic powerhouse, the biggest country in Europe with the most citizens (besides Russia) etc. etc. etc. - we dominate if we want to or not!

We became all that with the unification and only fragmentations and partitions could change that - I don't see that happening anytime soon!

So Germany is not an old has been?:)

Only when you take the high times of the HRE into the account...

Yes lovely and it never crossed your mind that it might not be permanent?

Has Poland any plans to partition Germany you don't tell us? ;)

No i dont, in a previous thread i pointed to obvious attempts by Germany to dominate the region of Poland they want back, that one is going to fail as well.

Even if, that won't happen militarily!
And IF it would be tried there is nothing Poland could do against it but leaving the EU. When a german firm buys a polish plant she can do so...when german investors take over polish property they can do so. Fully legal!

But rest well, German business is much more pragmatic, they look to their money first not to history books nor nourish they any sinister "we-want-to-take-over-Poland" ideas! :)

Your kids are just as likely to iive in Breslau as they're in a loose federation of small german states

Germany IS a federal state! ;)

We'd still have kings without the war.

Agreed! :)

...and I would be an official Prussian!!!! (not only in my heart)
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
27 Apr 2010 #115
The EU was founded to harness german power and use it

They are certainly using it, for instance:

Greek PM: Angie,we are a little broke at the moment, could you spare us a Dime.

Angie: why not, here you go, but don't fritter it away!

10 years later, Greek PM: Angie...
guzzler 1 | 88
27 Apr 2010 #116
Given that Germany wanted a colonial empire which automatically meant taking some of it from Britain they had no choice but to align with France and Russia

Like you Sokrates I'm glad they made that decision because it gave Ireland a chance to brake free, but that's from my own point of view as an Irishman. I still think it was the wrong decision from a British point of view. Nine hundred thousand dead, over a million wounded, and in hock up to their eyeballs to the yanks. The next war completely wiped them out, and lost them their Empire so what did they gain. They were fighting the French and the Germans in North Africa in 1942. One thing always puzzled me about the the invasion of Poland by Germany and the USSR, England declared war on Germany why not the USSR as well. I would like to know your thoughts on this.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
27 Apr 2010 #117
puzzled me about the the invasion of Poland by Germany and the USSR, England declared war on Germany why not the USSR as well. I would like to know your thoughts on this.

well ideally yes, on both, but not exactly realistic though is it.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
27 Apr 2010 #118
how come you get it and most don't??

I'm pretty sure that most people actually do get it, but just don't want to accept the reality of what happened and how their government behaved. These people confuse our critique of their government of 70 years ago with a personal attack upon themselves (or their ancestors) here and now, which is misunderstanding the point entirely.

Myself and many other forum members who are Polish or of Polish descent have nothing but praise and admiration for the heroic efforts of the British soldiers who perished in WW2 fighting for their own country but also for the ideal of a free Poland. HMG failed to uphold and validate those principles and indeed adopted a course of action contrary to same, all in the name of realpolitik and self preservation.

The issue of the Teheran conference and how it effected subsequent allied arrangements is damning upon HMG and their attitude toward Poland in the then prophesised post WW2 socio/political arena. HMG were obliged to tell Poland that Poland was to be subject to a severe border change in favour of the SU but didn't. They acquiesced to Stalin's demands regarding the make up and nature of power in the region of Poland and SU and in turn Stalin relied on the understanding that the SU would have hegemony over their new sphere of influence. That in turn snowballed whereby toward the end of WW2, when the Red Army came rolling over Poland, the Red Army believed it had jurisdiction over Polish territory, founding that assertion on the basis that HMG had agreed to it at Teheran.

Therefore, Stalin was of the view that in terms of agreed Allied strategy per the agreement reached at Teheran, Poland was his for the taking and he had the blessing of HMG to do as he pleased. HMG did not tell Poland of this, which can be attributed to the fact that the AK's SOP was to welcome the Red Army as 'guests' of a soon to be sovereign and independant nation (in Poland's eyes). We all know what the SU did to its AK hosts.

What would have happened if HMG had told Poland of the implications of Teheran? It behoved them not to because keeping Poland in the dark ensured that Polish soldiers under British colours would continue fighting under the assumption that there was something worth fighting for - the slogan 'for your freedom and ours' is a two way street, but HMG by its actions demonstrated that when it came to what the Polish soldiers were fighting for, only the first 3 words applied.

Thus the foundations for Poland's blame culture were laid. It's trite to say that Poland would not be able to blame the Poms if only HMG had fulfilled its obligations under clause 5 of the contract with Poland (how do you blame a contracting party for fulfilling its obligations?), but according to some Poms on this forum pointing that out is wrong, justified on the basis that it was so long ago, what could we have done, don't blame us and so on.

As always, I welcome any relevant response to my propositions but as always, I won't expect anything worthwhile...
Seanus 15 | 19,706
27 Apr 2010 #119
Sorry, Stalin famously said. Hmm...a stressful morning, time to chillout now :)

What was written in the official memoirs of Churchill and Roosevelt on this point? Also, did Tehran and Yalta provide sound justifications? What was the Polish reaction, didn't they fight their corner?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
27 Apr 2010 #120
I really don't know, I guess the Americans were just not really that interested, they thought they had got a good deal and probably believed Stalin, when he assured them that there would be a free and fair election in Poland and other countries. By time the rigged elections took place I think he already acquired THE BOMOB.

The Brits in turn were suspicious of the Americans and wanted the secrets to THE BOMB, which the Americans were at first reluctant to share. As for the Poles it didn't matter what they thought, they were just ignored.

They had to throw everything but the kitchen sink into rearming

I think you meant mobilizing, they certainly were rearming in as far as the economic situation allowed. Britain on the other hand was constrained by some of the cuts Churchill made when he was Chancellor in a Baldwin government, they stuck to a pretty stupid 10 year plan at the time. That was partly the result of very strong pacifist Labour opposition, that wanted more money devoted to social security (as they always do).

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